Israel vs Palestine

[michel555555]

Since this thread has been bumped.

 

Whats everyones opinion on Israeli's attempts to stop the new flotilla that is planning to leave for gaza?

 

Latest word is that greece has caved to the pressure and is blocking one of the ships from leaving the port

 

And there has been several acts of sabotage against the flotilla. While we can't prove theat Israel is the one who sabotaged the boats it's a good guess since theres really no one els who wants to stop them. To add to that one of the boats was actually sabotaged in such a way that if it had left the port and the crew had not noticed it the ship might have sank and threatened the lives of the crew. http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2011/06/30/activist_us_boat_may_sail_for_gaza_without_permit/?s_campaign=8315

[Crocefisso]

Since this thread has been bumped.

 

Whats everyones opinion on Israeli's attempts to stop the new flotilla that is planning to leave for gaza?

 

Latest word is that greece has caved to the pressure and is blocking one of the ships from leaving the port

 

And there has been several acts of sabotage against the flotilla. While we can't prove theat Israel is the one who sabotaged the boats it's a good guess since theres really no one els who wants to stop them. To add to that one of the boats was actually sabotaged in such a way that if it had left the port and the crew had not noticed it the ship might have sank and threatened the lives of the crew. http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2011/06/30/activist_us_boat_may_sail_for_gaza_without_permit/?s_campaign=8315

 

This, like the flotilla in 2009, is likely going to have some disastrous consequences for those involved.

 

It does not surprise me that the Greeks are blocking the ships; after the 2009 flotilla incident, and Turkey's subsequent drift away from Israel at Davos and in the Turkish assembly, the Israeli government started to forge closer ties with Greece. To their credit, they are clever.

 

Anyway, what's Greece doing sending aid in the first place, aren't they meant to be on the verge of a default? #-o

[Giordano]

 

 

Typical Israeli defence argument.

 

THE WORLD: "Israel, can I ask you why you're blockading Gaza?"

ISRAEL: "No, that would be anti-Semitic"

THE WORLD: "Ok, then I'll shut up"

 

omg why are you such a nazi? go back to germany you fascist racist :angry: :ohnoes: :mellow:

[Crocefisso]

 

 

Typical Israeli defence argument.

 

THE WORLD: "Israel, can I ask you why you're blockading Gaza?"

ISRAEL: "No, that would be anti-Semitic"

THE WORLD: "Ok, then I'll shut up"

 

omg why are you such a nazi? go back to germany you fascist racist :angry: :ohnoes: :mellow:

 

Read an article by Melanie Phillips on Israel and you'll see what I mean. She basically says that the media lie to us and try to create a sense of sympathy for Arabs, whom she calls aggressors, because it has a deep rooted anti-Semitic bias and intends to spread hatred towards Israel. She says that all attacks on Israeli foreign policy are rooted in anti-Semitic sentiments. These are the sort of irrational people I am talking about.

 

Then there are people like Menachem Begin, whose most famous quote is: "Our race (speaking of the Jews) is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."

 

On a less intelligent level, Israeli PM Netanyahu likes to throw the phrase around whenever he can, usually in press conferences when he's running out of his stock phrases (if you look at different interviews from the same period of time by Netanyahu, you'll see that he just seems to learn a few stock phrases for all interviews).

 

Perhaps I worded it poorly, but can you honestly deny that accusations of anti-Semitism are bandied around by people in defence of Israel, in place of thought out answers, rather too often for comfort?

[The_Gabe]

 

 

Typical Israeli defence argument.

 

THE WORLD: "Israel, can I ask you why you're blockading Gaza?"

ISRAEL: "No, that would be anti-Semitic"

THE WORLD: "Ok, then I'll shut up"

 

omg why are you such a nazi? go back to germany you fascist racist :angry: :ohnoes: :mellow:

 

Read an article by Melanie Phillips on Israel and you'll see what I mean. She basically says that the media lie to us and try to create a sense of sympathy for Arabs, whom she calls aggressors, because it has a deep rooted anti-Semitic bias and intends to spread hatred towards Israel. She says that all attacks on Israeli foreign policy are rooted in anti-Semitic sentiments. These are the sort of irrational people I am talking about.

 

Then there are people like Menachem Begin, whose most famous quote is: "Our race (speaking of the Jews) is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."

 

On a less intelligent level, Israeli PM Netanyahu likes to throw the phrase around whenever he can, usually in press conferences when he's running out of his stock phrases (if you look at different interviews from the same period of time by Netanyahu, you'll see that he just seems to learn a few stock phrases for all interviews).

 

Perhaps I worded it poorly, but can you honestly deny that accusations of anti-Semitism are bandied around by people in defence of Israel, in place of thought out answers, rather too often for comfort?

 

No, but I am seeing you use just a few examples of people who go far beyond what is needed. There are people who said the Germans were the superior race. There are people who say Americans are superior race. Do we listen to them?

 

Also, the media may be incorrect in those rare cases, but that's with every country. I also can tell you know little of the situation because you're saying antisemitism instead of anti-Zionism.

 

Netanyahu is a smart man, and if you think he does use similar phrases, it means they are important. All leaders do it. I do not know why you're focused on single individuals.

 

You seem to be really one sided.

[The_Gabe]

Yeah Gabe you aren't one-sided at all.

 

Read my previous posts. Also, I was making a point referring to another thread with that comment.

[Crocefisso]

I'm referencing particular individuals because I don't feel I need to give 10 pieces of evidence to back up my point. Big deal.

 

The Gabe, please go on to YouTube and look at Netanyahu's series of interviews he did around the end of March/beginning of April. You'll see what I mean when I say that he repeats empty stock phrases devoid of any substance or meaning. He is about as committeed to peace as G W Bush was to avoiding war with Iraq.

 

The point I made in what was intended to be a sarcastic post is that many people, like Israel63, just throw around accusations of anti-Semitism with no ground in reason, fact, or rationality, as if that's somehow going to convince people that the blockade on Gaza - which Egypt's new government is making progress in ending - is somehow justified.

 

As for Menachem Begin: he may well be one man with extreme views, but he was a man who managed to receive enough support from the people of Israel to be elected Prime Minister. In my mind, this is tantamount to Ayman al-Zawahiri being elected President of Egypt come September, and it does reflect badly on the Israeli electorate of the time that he was elected in the first place. The fact that the Likud is in office today again worries me. Both they and Hamas are so uncompromising that a true peace cannot be achieved with either, from what I've seen of the past two years. If anything, Netanyahu is making the situation worse.

 

The biggest problem with Israel as I see it is that Zionism is truly untenable. I do not feel that the concept of a state for any religion or race is a concept that fits in very well with 21st century values of equality and freedom. There's no point gloating about how Arabs in Israel have the opportunities they do if most of them aren't allowed back to what is also their homeland. Of course there are anti-Semitic people on the one side, but there are also Islamophobic people on the other, and both factions have to be largely ignored.

[The_Gabe]

I'm referencing particular individuals because I don't feel I need to give 10 pieces of evidence to back up my point. Big deal.

 

It is a big deal. 2 individuals will do nothing towards your point.

 

The Gabe, please go on to YouTube and look at Netanyahu's series of interviews he did around the end of March/beginning of April. You'll see what I mean when I say that he repeats empty stock phrases devoid of any substance or meaning. He is about as committeed to peace as G W Bush was to avoiding war with Iraq.

 

 

I'm not going to bother comparing two leaders because that'd be pointless.

 

The point I made in what was intended to be a sarcastic post is that many people, like Israel63, just throw around accusations of anti-Semitism with no ground in reason, fact, or rationality, as if that's somehow going to convince people that the blockade on Gaza - which Egypt's new government is making progress in ending - is somehow justified.

 

If they're firing rockets at Israel with the blockade taking place, imagine what would happen if the blockade was removed.

 

As for Menachem Begin: he may well be one man with extreme views, but he was a man who managed to receive enough support from the people of Israel to be elected Prime Minister. In my mind, this is tantamount to Ayman al-Zawahiri being elected President of Egypt come September, and it does reflect badly on the Israeli electorate of the time that he was elected in the first place. The fact that the Likud is in office today again worries me. Both they and Hamas are so uncompromising that a true peace cannot be achieved with either, from what I've seen of the past two years. If anything, Netanyahu is making the situation worse.

 

Do you think I honestly condemn what Menachem has done? This is about twenty years ago though, and Netanyahu is taking steps in the right direction to fix the problems and try and establish peace.

 

The biggest problem with Israel as I see it is that Zionism is truly untenable.

I do not feel that the concept of a state for any religion or race is a concept that fits in very well with 21st century values of equality and freedom. There's no point gloating about how Arabs in Israel have the opportunities they do if most of them aren't allowed back to what is also their homeland. Of course there are anti-Semitic people on the one side, but there are also Islamophobic people on the other, and both factions have to be largely ignored.

 

This part made me laugh. Looking into the 21st century, what have you seen? The United States is mostly Christian and celebrates Christian holidays. Muslim countries are mostly Muslim and celebrate Muslim holidays. And guess what? Israel is mostly Jewish state and celebrates Jewish holidays.

[Nomrombom]

This part made me laugh. Looking into the 21st century, what have you seen? The United States is mostly Christian and celebrates Christian holidays. Muslim countries are mostly Muslim and celebrate Muslim holidays. And guess what? Israel is mostly Jewish state and celebrates Jewish holidays.

 

 

I can't answer to the Muslim countries, but in terms of the US, we celebrate more and more independent holidays and we also celebrate Jewish holidays - Yom Kippur for example. And in terms of holidays being Christian, they are becoming more and more about general feelings of goodwill and generosity and less about religion or the story behind it. Many kids don't even know the story behind Christmas (trivia: Jesus was not born on December 25) and fewer know the story behind Easter. Thanksgiving is now completely non-religious, as is Valentines day. Rosh Hashanah is also given as a free day usually, whereas Good Friday is not.

[The_Gabe]

This part made me laugh. Looking into the 21st century, what have you seen? The United States is mostly Christian and celebrates Christian holidays. Muslim countries are mostly Muslim and celebrate Muslim holidays. And guess what? Israel is mostly Jewish state and celebrates Jewish holidays.

 

 

I can't answer to the Muslim countries, but in terms of the US, we celebrate more and more independent holidays and we also celebrate Jewish holidays - Yom Kippur for example. And in terms of holidays being Christian, they are becoming more and more about general feelings of goodwill and generosity and less about religion or the story behind it. Many kids don't even know the story behind Christmas (trivia: Jesus was not born on December 25) and fewer know the story behind Easter. Thanksgiving is now completely non-religious, as is Valentines day. Rosh Hashanah is also given as a free day usually, whereas Good Friday is not.

 

I'm not giving any of those days off so I have to skip school to honor them.

[Nomrombom]

Well, Tennessee is not exactly the epitome of religious tolerance. Why do you/your parents live there?

[Crocefisso]

The Gabe;

 

2 individuals is more than enough to prove that some people do it. I would only need one to prove that it happens.

 

With respect to Netanyahu, I've seen a great many of his speeches a great many times before. But rhetoric and action are very different things, and Netanyahu - like Obama - is a man incapable of translating his words into actions. The Gaza flotilla was attacked on Netanyahu's watch. Netanyahu has continued the Gaza blockade, and has made the situation in the West Bank worse, because under his stewardship the rate of settlement building has increased. Just because he didn't do things as outlandish as Olmert doesn't make him a leader who actually wants peace. This guy supports AIPAC - who are professional liars, as I've stated on numerous occasions - and as such I cannot take anything he says as even close to the truth. The idea that Netanyahu has done anything that has brought the two sides closer to peace is a joke imade in very poor taste. Sitting in a room with Mahmoud Abbas a few times does not mean his actions on the ground translate into a willingness for peace.

 

Do you know what would happen if the blockade were removed? A million and a half people would be able to start improving their living conditions. Hamas' rockets, even before the blockade, never cause the sort of humanitarian crisis - and it is a crisis - that has been caused by this blockade.

 

As for what you said about the public holidays in relation to 21st century values - very fatuous indeed. I'm pretty sure that the defining aspect of the values shared by most countries on earth is not how they choose to celebrate their public holidays. Instead, look at their institutions, societal values and actions. Israel has good democratic insitutions, make no mistake, but its actions on the global stage often break international laws (and not the sort that are laws that do not take into account non US/European culture, as I admit some of these international laws can be, but instead pretty basic ones like not using cluster bombs, killing civilians and so on), whilst their values assert the right to a certain area of land as predominantly Jewish because it was Jewish some two millennia ago, and therefore prevent many Palestinians access to what is also their home.

 

Particularly saddening is the fact that the Arabs came to this area of land long after the Romans - ie, Europeans - had essentially created the Jewish diaspora across Europe and later the New World, and as such the Arabs that were driven from this land in 1948 were not even the same ethnic group that drove the Jews out of their original homeland. I find that fact bitterly ironic.

[The_Gabe]

The Gabe;

 

2 individuals is more than enough to prove that some people do it. I would only need one to prove that it happens.

 

It's not. 2 Individuals can say that Obama is a socialist but that doesn't make it true.

 

The Gaza flotilla was attacked on Netanyahu's watch.

 

Ahh, let us go ahead and pull out the flotilla card. The ship among a convoy of ships who all let us search them, but when we came on board the Mavi Marmara, our unit, CARRYING PAINTBALL GUNS, was attacked by the so called humanists.

 

Netanyahu has continued the Gaza blockade

 

You're telling me that's a bad thing? As I said before, if Israel is getting rockets fired from land they've given back after conquering while the land is blockaded, than I don't want to know what would happen if you lifted the blockade in this current point of time before nothing is done.

 

and has made the situation in the West Bank worse, because under his stewardship the rate of settlement building has increased.

 

Israel is allowed to build there. Watch this video to help you understand why. Don't worry, there are English subtitles.

 

 

Just because he didn't do things as outlandish as Olmert doesn't make him a leader who actually wants peace. This guy supports AIPAC - who are professional liars, as I've stated on numerous occasions - and as such I cannot take anything he says as even close to the truth. The idea that Netanyahu has done anything that has brought the two sides closer to peace is a joke imade in very poor taste. Sitting in a room with Mahmoud Abbas a few times does not mean his actions on the ground translate into a willingness for peace.

 

No proof what so ever to back up what you say. You're not even giving examples anymore, you're just spewing what you think.

 

 

Do you know what would happen if the blockade were removed? A million and a half people would be able to start improving their living conditions. Hamas' rockets, even before the blockade, never cause the sort of humanitarian crisis - and it is a crisis - that has been caused by this blockade.

 

The citizens have their basic needs, but they also have a terrorist group as their leaders...

 

often break international laws (and not the sort that are laws that do not take into account non US/European culture, as I admit some of these international laws can be, but instead pretty basic ones like not using cluster bombs, killing civilians and so on),

 

They rarely break international law, but you just have to study up on it to understand why.

 

Particularly saddening is the fact that the Arabs came to this area of land long after the Romans - ie, Europeans - had essentially created the Jewish diaspora across Europe and later the New World, and as such the Arabs that were driven from this land in 1948 were not even the same ethnic group that drove the Jews out of their original homeland. I find that fact bitterly ironic.

 

Yet they were never driven out. They had decided to leave and come back when the Arab countries won the war.

[Crocefisso]

Saying that Obama is a Socialist and giving examples of people throwing around accusations of anti-Semitism for no real reason are not in any way similar. The latter group of people said this as fact, and so it means that they said this. It's really quite simple to understand.

 

As for your comment about the Mavri Marmara: it is true that the IDF commandos were attacked when they descended to descend upon the flotilla. Big deal; these IDF commanders were armed with proper weapons. This is fact: evidence shows that the 9 civilians killed by the IDF commandos were killed with actual 9mm weapons. To say that they used paintball guns is a ridiculous lie. Similarly, forensic evidence has proven that 6 of these 9 people were killed via "summary execution", aka being executed whilst injured. This sort of action on civilians is utterly despicable. One of the civilians was shot five times, in various places in his body. In case you ask for a source, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid#Deaths .

 

Furthermore, I abhor the fact that you brush it off as in, 'Oh God, they're mentioning the raid again'. It's equivalent to me going, 'Oh, so what, Hamas only killed one Israeli civilian in that rocket strike the other day'. Utterly abhorrent that you seem to view human life and murder as so pedestrian.

 

 

My comments on AIPAC are an opinion based on the regular "news" bulletins they post on their website. I'll give an example: "PA President Abbas is determined to avoid direct talks and go straight to the U.N.", said the AIPAC site. It doesn't take a genius to realise that this is totally untrue. Mahmoud Abbas has sat through many, many, many talks in the past, the first I rememeber being with Ariel Sharon in the Red Sea in 2003, and they have achieved absolutely nothing. After the most recent talks in September 2010, Netanyahu has already gone back on what they were trying to agree with regards to settlement building and commissioned more of the same in January 2011. Talks with Israel achieve something once every few decades, so why would Abbas want to engage in yet more? It's not like going to the UN is a crime. I think it's very valid; Israel are always moaning that they don't get recognised by the the Palestinian Authority as a Jewish state, yet they refuse to recognise Palestine as a state in any sense of the word.

 

The idea that breaking international law can always be justified is ridiculous. There is a difference between defending yourself and defending yourself with illegal cluster bombs that cause far more civilian death and have long lasting effects. There is no justification for Israel opting to arm itself with cluster bombs. Furthermore, if we look back to may, what happened to people who marched near Israeli borders? They were fired at with live ammunition first, then warning shots and tear gas were used afterwards. Is that really a cohesive defensive policy against largely peaceful protesters, some of whom are armed with such terrifying objects as stones.

 

The video does not change the fact that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are, in today's world, considered part of the Palestinian territories, by a majority of nations across the world.

 

Again, the Arabs were not forced out in 1948 in the sense that people with guns ushered them out, but that would be giving a very one-sided account. Admittedly, some went because they didn't want to live under Jewish control, but equally many others left because the Jewish military was advancing and they feared they would be massacred, which I think is pretty much the same as being forced out.

 

The Gazans have terrorists as their leaders, true, but I think that the blockade has gone far, far beyond their "basic needs". Living conditions in the most densely populated piece of land on the planet (1.6 million people in 360 sq km) are far worse than lacking "basic needs". If everyone had just done as Israel had said and given no aid, God knows what the situation there would be today. Even with all the aid, the conditions are still awful.

[The_Gabe]

Saying that Obama is a Socialist and giving examples of people throwing around accusations of anti-Semitism for no real reason are not in any way similar. The latter group of people said this as fact, and so it means that they said this. It's really quite simple to understand.

 

Might not have been the best example, but the point still stands.

 

As for your comment about the Mavri Marmara: it is true that the IDF commandos were attacked when they descended to descend upon the flotilla. Big deal; these IDF commanders were armed with proper weapons. This is fact: evidence shows that the 9 civilians killed by the IDF commandos were killed with actual 9mm weapons. To say that they used paintball guns is a ridiculous lie. Similarly, forensic evidence has proven that 6 of these 9 people were killed via "summary execution", aka being executed whilst injured. This sort of action on civilians is utterly despicable. One of the civilians was shot five times, in various places in his body. In case you ask for a source, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid#Deaths .

 

Lovely article, would be a shame if you didn't read the rest of it yourself.

 

Furthermore, I abhor the fact that you brush it off as in, 'Oh God, they're mentioning the raid again'. It's equivalent to me going, 'Oh, so what, Hamas only killed one Israeli civilian in that rocket strike the other day'. Utterly abhorrent that you seem to view human life and murder as so pedestrian.

 

Lovely, truly lovely. I said that statement because it's been mentioned and discussed on this thread and on a thread by itself already. I'd just have to be repeating myself. Way to miss the point again.

 

 

My comments on AIPAC are an opinion based on the regular "news" bulletins they post on their website. I'll give an example: "PA President Abbas is determined to avoid direct talks and go straight to the U.N.", said the AIPAC site. It doesn't take a genius to realise that this is totally untrue. Mahmoud Abbas has sat through many, many, many talks in the past, the first I rememeber being with Ariel Sharon in the Red Sea in 2003, and they have achieved absolutely nothing. After the most recent talks in September 2010, Netanyahu has already gone back on what they were trying to agree with regards to settlement building and commissioned more of the same in January 2011. Talks with Israel achieve something once every few decades, so why would Abbas want to engage in yet more? It's not like going to the UN is a crime. I think it's very valid; Israel are always moaning that they don't get recognised by the the Palestinian Authority as a Jewish state, yet they refuse to recognise Palestine as a state in any sense of the word.

 

So according to your logic, instead of trying something again because it failed, you're saying [bleep] it it's not gonna work.

 

yet they refuse to recognise Palestine as a state in any sense of the word

 

Watch the video I posted about Netanyahu.

 

The idea that breaking international law can always be justified is ridiculous. There is a difference between defending yourself and defending yourself with illegal cluster bombs that cause far more civilian death and have long lasting effects. There is no justification for Israel opting to arm itself with cluster bombs. Furthermore, if we look back to may, what happened to people who marched near Israeli borders? They were fired at with live ammunition first, then warning shots and tear gas were used afterwards. Is that really a cohesive defensive policy against largely peaceful protesters, some of whom are armed with such terrifying objects as stones.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/05/palestinian-protests-on-israels-borders/100067/

 

Indeed, such a peaceful protest it was.

 

The video does not change the fact that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are, in today's world, considered part of the Palestinian territories, by a majority of nations across the world.

Sure it does. Facts are facts. If you don't consider something true, you look back at the facts. And it looks like the facts point the other way.

 

Again, the Arabs were not forced out in 1948 in the sense that people with guns ushered them out, but that would be giving a very one-sided account. Admittedly, some went because they didn't want to live under Jewish control, but equally many others left because the Jewish military was advancing and they feared they would be massacred, which I think is pretty much the same as being forced out.

 

Not massacred, but the Israel army did force some of them out so they could secure the regions.

 

The Gazans have terrorists as their leaders, true, but I think that the blockade has gone far, far beyond their "basic needs". Living conditions in the most densely populated piece of land on the planet (1.6 million people in 360 sq km) are far worse than lacking "basic needs". If everyone had just done as Israel had said and given no aid, God knows what the situation there would be today. Even with all the aid, the conditions are still awful.

 

The billions upon billions in supplies covers their basic needs and goes even further. What you're seeing is just propaganda.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=40761

[Crocefisso]

Being a bit sarcastic and failing to qualify anything you say does not constitute a response, Gabe. At least bother to answer me properly.

[The_Gabe]

This is obviously gonna get nowhere like the other times in this thread. Anyways, I'm heading out for the week so ciao.

[Giordano]

This is obviously gonna get nowhere like the other times in this thread. Anyways, I'm heading out for the week so ciao.

 

Exactly, threads like these dont change peoples minds no matter how great or terrible an argument from either side.

Correct. Now, if it was phrased into something like so:

 

'Exactly, guns like these dont change peoples minds no matter how great or terrible an argument from either side.'

 

Then things will get done. But that is 'unethical'.