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Israel vs Palestine

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Im not denying the holocaust however I am saying any proof thereof is an opinion.

 

Ignoring the past few posts of arguing, I'd just like to point out that this is one of the more cabbage remarks I've seen.

Although I see the point you're trying to make, I find your sentence quoted above rather insulting.

 

 

Also:

Both sides are biased, and influenced by media one way or another, though I believe Hamas is the only one brainwashing children into believing what the above posted videos would have them believe. It's beyond disturbing.

 

I doubt there are any Israeli children's cartoons like that.

 

Hamas is a terrorist group, the Israeli government is not, but governments also do things "above the law." Neither side (Palistinian/Israeli) is the good or evil one, however I would say Hamas is evil. Most of that was established in the first few pages of the thread.

 

Personally I think The_Gabe stated a number of valid points on this thread, but some people appear to only care about arguing for the sake of arguing. Sigh.


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Why does every discussion on Israel turn back to the Holocaust, as if Nazi Germany was some kind of justification for their actions against Palestine?

 

The Holocaust has no relevence to the Israel-Palestine conflict. At all.

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Im not denying the holocaust however I am saying any proof thereof is an opinion.

 

Ignoring the past few posts of arguing, I'd just like to point out that this is one of the more cabbage remarks I've seen.

Although I see the point you're trying to make, I find your sentence quoted above rather insulting.

 

 

Also:

Both sides are biased, and influenced by media one way or another, though I believe Hamas is the only one brainwashing children into believing what the above posted videos would have them believe. It's beyond disturbing.

 

I doubt there are any Israeli children's cartoons like that.

 

Hamas is a terrorist group, the Israeli government is not, but governments also do things "above the law." Neither side (Palistinian/Israeli) is the good or evil one, however I would say Hamas is evil. Most of that was established in the first few pages of the thread.

 

Personally I think The_Gabe stated a number of valid points on this thread, but some people appear to only care about is arguing for the sake of arguing. Sigh.

 

I for the most part agree with you. The problem is that when fighting a terrorist organization Israel is forced to fight on the terrorist ground. The terrorist chose where they want to fight and they hide in UN schools and other places which doesn't leave Israel with much of a chose. In which is a lose lose situation because they can kill the terrorist and have a few civilian causalities due to the terrorist or they can leave the terrorist in which he can come back and commit terrorism again.

 

Why does every discussion on Israel turn back to the Holocaust, as if Nazi Germany was some kind of justification for their actions against Palestine?

 

The Holocaust has no relevence to the Israel-Palestine conflict. At all.

 

Please read the whole topic before picking a few words to post on :shame: . If you actually were posting with knowledge of what has been said instead of trying to flame me you would have noticed that it was brought up on the pro Palestine line :wink: . But anything to flame me instead of going on topic. :shame:


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I'm reasonably sure most TIFers know after a good five years of my account being active that I'm not trying to flame anyone, but thanks for the advice.

 

I'm just saying there is literally no reason to mention the Holocaust in a discussion about Palestine. I don't care what's been said, there's just no relevence.

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ISREAL, that was uncalled for. Ginger_Warrior isn't flaming you at all. :blink:

 

That said, I agree that the Holocaust is of little relevance in this discussion, though it is relevant in that it has had a major influence on the Jewish who live in Israel (and therefore can explain mentality to some extend), it is irrelevant as far as Palistinians are concerned.

 

 

Edit: back to what you said in reply to my post:

Collateral damage has its limits. There is something to be said for getting the people on your side, rather than to consider them nothing but collateral.


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I'm reasonably sure most TIFers know after a good five years of my account being active that I'm not trying to flame anyone, but thanks for the advice.

I'm just saying there is literally no reason to mention the Holocaust in a discussion about Palestine. I don't care what's been said, there's just no relevence.

 

I haven't brought up, even if The Holocaust it is relevant, but i haven't brought it up at all in this topic. But since it is brought it is a major player in Israel's right to exist whether you like it or not that is a fact.

 

ISREAL, that was uncalled for. Ginger_Warrior isn't flaming you at all. :blink:

 

That said, I agree that the Holocaust is of little relevance in this discussion, though it is relevant in that it has had a major influence on the Jewish who live in Israel (and therefore can explain mentality to some extend), it is irrelevant as far as Palistinians are concerned.

Edit: back to what you said in reply to my post:

Collateral damage has its limits. There is something to be said for getting the people on your side, rather than to consider them nothing but collateral.

 

You right he wasn't flaming me just accusing me for doing something i didn't do.

You are right Collateral damage has its limits but what do you do when someone threatens to kill you but hides behind civilians to do it, and it is the only way he fight do you let him keep on killing your soldiers or do you kill the terrorist so he can't try to kill again. So what is the limit when it comes to terrorism?


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You right he wasn't flaming me just accusing me for doing something i didn't do.

You are right Collateral damage has its limits but what do you do when someone threatens to kill you but hides behind civilians to do it, and it is the only way he fight do you let him keep on killing your soldiers or do you kill the terrorist so he can't try to kill again. So what is the limit when it comes to terrorism?

He wasn't even talking to you specifically... Anyway, let's stay on topic.

 

You're assuming that every single terrorist-Israeli confrontation is in some street with people shooting on each other, with terrorists using people for shields?

 

What would your soldier be doing in this Palistinian street other than to kill terrorists in the first place?

 

I think we both know it's not that simple, and there are other ways to eliminate terrorists without choosing to kill that many innocents that happen to be in the general area. They may be more costly and take more time and effort to execute, but the ways are there nonetheless.

 

I also think you may want to read my previous post again, because you seem to have missed my point.


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He wasn't even talking to you specifically... Anyway, let's stay on topic.

 

You are right just the pro Israel posters which is basically me. Anyway you are right lets get back on topic

 

You're assuming that every single terrorist-Israeli confrontation is in some street with people shooting on each other, with terrorists using people for shields?

 

No, but most civilian causalities are a result of that confrontation in which Israel is heavily criticized on when is isn't Israel's fault

 

What would your soldier be doing in this Palestinian street other than to kill terrorists in the first place?

 

Israeli soldiers don't walk around anymore on Palestinian streets so i am not sure what your question is

I think we both know it's not that simple, and there are other ways to eliminate terrorists without choosing to kill that many innocents that happen to be in the general area. They may be more costly and take more time and effort to execute, but the ways are there nonetheless.

 

You are right it isn't that simple, but in war what can you do let the enemy win or destroy him?

 

I also think you may want to read my previous post again, because you seem to have missed my point.

 

I understood your point and i support it, but i do believe that israel is good but it seems not because of how it is forced to fight. So i was explaining why it might seem bad


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You appear to have misunderstood my post. It was meant to be read as a whole. The questions were rhetorical, edging sarcasm.

 

You're claiming that brute force without regard for human life is the only way to fight, and that (apparently) these people aren't worth considering as equal human beings. Therefore you disrespect them and this would lead me to believe that you think the only possibility for peace is some form of reduced genocide?

 

Call me naïve, but I still say the Israeli government should apply other means which I know they have at their disposal. Military action is fine, when regard for human life is maintained.

 

The unnecessary killing of people only encourages blind hatred for the other side, ignorance, and more death. You are obviously affected as well (which is pretty much why I valued The_Gabe being reasonable so much).

 

Anyhow, I think people like these have the right mentality.


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Maybe things can improve. But somebody has to take the first step - Israel needs to allow the right of return, and Hamas needs to dissolve or disarm. Hopefully with new generations the conflict will settle :mellow:


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You appear to have misunderstood my post. It was meant to be read as a whole. The questions were rhetorical, edging sarcasm.

 

Oh ok when reading what someone wrote it isn't always easy to understand that is sarcasm. Anything in this thread i take seriously because it is a serious topic, sorry if i miss understood you.

 

You're claiming that brute force without regard for human life is the only way to fight, and that (apparently) these people aren't worth considering as equal human beings. Therefore you disrespect them and this would lead me to believe that you think the only possibility for peace is some form of reduced genocide?

 

No i am not saying that they are not human, i have stated before how Israel before operation cast lead dropping hundreds of thousand of pamphlet warning about the raids and that if there houses were involved in terrorism they should leave it. The IDF made many calls warning people 5 minutes before bombing each building, the IDF also recorded every bombing on the satellite and later uploaded it to you tube for all to see. Israel has gone out its way to avoid civilian deaths.

 

Call me naïve, but I still say the Israeli government should apply other means which I know they have at their disposal. Military action is fine, when regard for human life is maintained.

 

I am talking about operation cast lead in which Israel put up with the bombardment of rockets and mortars for years, but it started coming at 200 a day in which Israel finally responded.

 

The unnecessary killing of people only encourages blind hatred for the other side, ignorance, and more death. You are obviously affected as well (which is pretty much why I valued The_Gabe being reasonable so much).

 

i don't think that there was unnecessary killing on the Israeli side there was mistakes but that happens in any war. i said above how Israel went out of its way to avoid such deaths.

 

Anyhow, I think people like these have the right mentality.

 

Most of Israeli think this way to including me, they want to coexist. But the terrorist attacks are what keeps that from happening.

 

Maybe things can improve. But somebody has to take the first step - Israel needs to allow the right of return, and Hamas needs to dissolve or disarm. Hopefully with new generations the conflict will settle :mellow:

 

Israel already did the first step by giving up the Gaza strip only to have it used as a terrorist base. So why should Israel give more and still receive nothing but terrorism in return.


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Gaza Strip is a tiny gift compared to what could be given. And in case you're unable to read, I also said Palestine needs to make serious changes - dissolving/disarming Hamas also means a blanket ceasefire (enforced by some 3rd party).


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Gaza Strip is a tiny gift compared to what could be given. And in case you're unable to read, I also said Palestine needs to make serious changes - dissolving/disarming Hamas also means a blanket ceasefire (enforced by some 3rd party).

 

I understood exactly what you said you said that "Israel needs to make the first move for peace", Israel did only to have it used for terrorism against Israel. The Gaza Strip is not a tiny gift. I know you said that the Palestinians needs to make serious change, and i agree, but in till this happen there can't be peace not when one of the peace partner daily act to destroy the other partner. It is the Palestinians turn they need to stop using the Gaza Strip to commit terrorism.


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Gaza Strip is a tiny gift compared to what could be given. And in case you're unable to read, I also said Palestine needs to make serious changes - dissolving/disarming Hamas also means a blanket ceasefire (enforced by some 3rd party).

 

I understood exactly what you said you said that "Israel needs to make the first move for peace", Israel did only to have it used for terrorism against Israel. The Gaza Strip is not a tiny gift. I know you said that the Palestinians needs to make serious change, and i agree, but in till this happen there can't be peace not when one of the peace partner daily act to destroy the other partner. It is the Palestinians turn they need to stop using the Gaza Strip to commit terrorism.

 

Why does it matter if it's the Gaza Strip? Why not Jordan or Syria or Lebanon or Egypt? Wouldn't attacks from there be just as bad?


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Gaza Strip is a tiny gift compared to what could be given. And in case you're unable to read, I also said Palestine needs to make serious changes - dissolving/disarming Hamas also means a blanket ceasefire (enforced by some 3rd party).

 

I understood exactly what you said you said that "Israel needs to make the first move for peace", Israel did only to have it used for terrorism against Israel. The Gaza Strip is not a tiny gift. I know you said that the Palestinians needs to make serious change, and i agree, but in till this happen there can't be peace not when one of the peace partner daily act to destroy the other partner. It is the Palestinians turn they need to stop using the Gaza Strip to commit terrorism.

 

Why does it matter if it's the Gaza Strip? Why not Jordan or Syria or Lebanon or Egypt? Wouldn't attacks from there be just as bad?

 

At the pr sent only the Gaza strip is being used as a terrorist base. :wink:


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Actually no i did, i understood. It was previously stated in this thread that the average deaths in a armed conflict is 10 civilian death for 1 combatant.

In Operation cast lead Israel went out of its ways dropping hundreds of thousand of pamphlet warning about the raids and that if there houses were involved in terrorism they should leave it. The IDF made many calls warning people 5 minutes before bombing each building, the IDF also recorded every bombing on the satellite and later uploaded it to you tube for all to see. Israel broke this 10:1 ratio and achieved a ration of 1:1.5 meaning for ever civilian that died 1.5 terrorist were killed. In every conflict there are civilian deaths but the fact that Israel achieved such a amazing ratio seems to be forgotten and left out

 

They also achieved that ratio by planning for the attack months in advance, even while they were negotiating with Palestine for a ceasefire; I wouldn't call that acting defensively. And despite the ratio, the fact remains that during Operation Cast Lead both sides committed violations of human rights and are guilty of war crimes. I'd also stand to guess that the crippled infrastructure from the bombings hasn't saved any lives; a sentiment echoed by the UN Fact Finding Mission:

 

Everyone before going to war plans but you are just trying to make Israel out to be the bad guy. Only 2-3 incidence involving 2-3 soldiers each time for israel is what you base your whole argument over. Yes a few soldiers didn't follow orders but in every army you have those types of soldiers i can show you many times in other army's where this has happened. Unlike the IDF who had a few men not following orders and breaking international law. The other side of the war fought by the Palestinians terrorist group Hamas, who consistently broke international law forcing israel to fight against them in UN schools there are many examples of how they broke the law. As a whole group they broke the law unlike the IDF which had individuals who did.

 

First off the UN fact finding mission was very bias not stating the 10 years of bombardment from rockets. It only criticized Israel. Second the writer of it later took it back saying he had mistaken. Also don't bring me a random quote or i am going to assume your wrote it without showing your source

Ok, you doubt my sources? Here it is, moving on.

 

You're ignoring the argument I made that the entire point of the attack was less about destroying Hamas's physical ability to bomb Israel than it was about demoralizing, and yes, terrorizing the population in the Gaza Strip. You're arguing about the smaller picture for Israel, only looking at the individual soldiers while ignoring the military tactics as a whole, while scrutinizing Hamas's methods both at an individual and systemic level; that kind of biased reasoning and argument isn't going to work.

 

EDIT: And seriously? 16 people died from Palestinian rocket attacks over the years and Israel responds by killing hundreds of innocent civilians in addition to the combatants, even accounting for mental harm caused by the rockets that is disproportional violence. You also state that "It's ok, they warned people beforehand to get out of their houses," all well and good, but I assume that their houses were destroyed. And in the life in the Gaza Strip isn't exactly a breeze, what were they going to do next?


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Ok, you doubt my sources?Here it is, moving on.

 

You're ignoring the argument I made that the entire point of the attack was less about destroying Hamas's physical ability to bomb Israel than it was about demoralizing, and yes, terrorizing the population in the Gaza Strip. You're arguing about the smaller picture for Israel, only looking at the individual soldiers while ignoring the military tactics as a whole, while scrutinizing Hamas's methods both at an individual and systemic level; that kind of biased reasoning and argument isn't going to work.

 

I just asked what was your source.

 

I am not ignoring your argument but you are ignoring mine. You are leaving out how israel went out its way to warn Palestinians, which was a major part of the war. What country in the world tells people about its military operation before they happen, only Israel to avoid civilians deaths but again you like to leave this part out. The main point of the attack was to stop Hamas from bombing Israel. Are you trying to argue what Israel said? Its a fact. Yes i am pointing out how Hamas fought because of they way they did there was many more civilian deaths. The only one who is terrorizing the Gaza strip is hamas a terrorist organization

 

Here is the son of the founder of Hamas

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLjwe2b40YA


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Ok, you doubt my sources? Here it is, moving on.

 

You're ignoring the argument I made that the entire point of the attack was less about destroying Hamas's physical ability to bomb Israel than it was about demoralizing, and yes, terrorizing the population in the Gaza Strip. You're arguing about the smaller picture for Israel, only looking at the individual soldiers while ignoring the military tactics as a whole, while scrutinizing Hamas's methods both at an individual and systemic level; that kind of biased reasoning and argument isn't going to work.

I just asked what was your source.

 

I am not ignoring your argument but you are ignoring mine. You are leaving out how israel went out its way to warn Palestinians, which was a major part of the war. What country in the world tells people about its military operation before they happen, only Israel to avoid civilians deaths but again you like to leave this part out. The main point of the attack was to stop Hamas from bombing Israel. Are you trying to argue what Israel said? Its a fact. Yes i am pointing out how Hamas fought because of they way they did there was many more civilian deaths. The only one who is terrorizing the Gaza strip is hamas a terrorist organization

 

Here is the son of the founder of Hamas

You think Israel is the only country whose military warns civilians in advance to evacuate? You seriously think that basic military tactic frees their military of all consequences? It doesn't, and like I said even without extraordinary civilian casualties the attack was still able to cause widespread economic and moral harm to the general population. And I'm not trying to say Israeli leaders didn't say something, I'm saying that they are lying/not telling the whole truth and that they have motives hidden from general publicity, just like any government. I'd argue that an entity that dumps white hot phosphorous on the public is committing an act of terror, so Hamas is far from the only group terrorizing people.


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I just asked what was your source.

 

I am not ignoring your argument but you are ignoring mine. You are leaving out how israel went out its way to warn Palestinians, which was a major part of the war. What country in the world tells people about its military operation before they happen, only Israel to avoid civilians deaths but again you like to leave this part out. The main point of the attack was to stop Hamas from bombing Israel. Are you trying to argue what Israel said? Its a fact. Yes i am pointing out how Hamas fought because of they way they did there was many more civilian deaths. The only one who is terrorizing the Gaza strip is hamas a terrorist organization

 

Here is the son of the founder of Hamas

You think Israel is the only country whose military warns civilians in advance to evacuate? You seriously think that basic military tactic frees their military of all consequences? It doesn't, and like I said even without extraordinary civilian casualties the attack was still able to cause widespread economic and moral harm to the general population. And I'm not trying to say Israeli leaders didn't say something, I'm saying that they are lying/not telling the whole truth and that they have motives hidden from general publicity, just like any government. I'd argue that an entity that dumps white hot phosphorous on the public is committing an act of terror, so Hamas is far from the only group terrorizing people.

 

Calling up saying, yes because you commit terrorism in your house please leave it so we can destroy it without killing you. No other country has done such a thing. It wasn't Israel fault that the economy was harmed it was the one that resorted to terrorism the Palestinians were. I alreadysaid 2-3 soldiers broke orders and broke international law but these is your only argument a few soldiers doing wrong when a whole terrorist organization commits terror which you seem to be leaving out.


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I'm not going to be able to post much longer on this thread, seeing as any real debating has gone to [cabbage]. All I read the past three pages are nonsense skewing of facts and throwing accusations at each other. NEITHER SIDE IS INNOCENT. It doesn't matter who killed more of who, but in this conflict, it's a matter of who is going to survive it in the end.


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I think everyone except Israel & USA knows who's wrong in this case. I don't feel the need to explain myself further but every person I have discussed this with in the past months always gets to the same conclusion.

Palestina is the victim and Israel the aggressor in this story. :(


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I think everyone except Israel & USA knows who's wrong in this case. I don't feel the need to explain myself further but every person I have discussed this with in the past months always gets to the same conclusion.

Palestina is the victim and Israel the aggressor in this story. :(

 

 

You seem to have not read the thread at all.


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Lol, whatever makes you sleep at night. Palestine is a faction, group, state, whatever and ignoring it will not make it go away just to let you know.

 

Ahh, patriotic Jews. As bad as redneck Americans I'll say.

 

There is a group called the PLO not Palestine i am not ignoring it you are bring me some proof that there is a state of Palestine what is its borders it doesn't have meaning it doesn't exist

 

Thank you for showing your antisemitic side now i now who i am arguing with

 

Typical Israeli defence argument.

 

THE WORLD: "Israel, can I ask you why you're blockading Gaza?"

ISRAEL: "No, that would be anti-Semitic"

THE WORLD: "Ok, then I'll shut up"



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Since this thread has been bumped.

 

Whats everyones opinion on Israeli's attempts to stop the new flotilla that is planning to leave for gaza?

 

Latest word is that greece has caved to the pressure and is blocking one of the ships from leaving the port

 

And there has been several acts of sabotage against the flotilla. While we can't prove theat Israel is the one who sabotaged the boats it's a good guess since theres really no one els who wants to stop them. To add to that one of the boats was actually sabotaged in such a way that if it had left the port and the crew had not noticed it the ship might have sank and threatened the lives of the crew. http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2011/06/30/activist_us_boat_may_sail_for_gaza_without_permit/?s_campaign=8315


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Since this thread has been bumped.

 

Whats everyones opinion on Israeli's attempts to stop the new flotilla that is planning to leave for gaza?

 

Latest word is that greece has caved to the pressure and is blocking one of the ships from leaving the port

 

And there has been several acts of sabotage against the flotilla. While we can't prove theat Israel is the one who sabotaged the boats it's a good guess since theres really no one els who wants to stop them. To add to that one of the boats was actually sabotaged in such a way that if it had left the port and the crew had not noticed it the ship might have sank and threatened the lives of the crew. http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2011/06/30/activist_us_boat_may_sail_for_gaza_without_permit/?s_campaign=8315

 

This, like the flotilla in 2009, is likely going to have some disastrous consequences for those involved.

 

It does not surprise me that the Greeks are blocking the ships; after the 2009 flotilla incident, and Turkey's subsequent drift away from Israel at Davos and in the Turkish assembly, the Israeli government started to forge closer ties with Greece. To their credit, they are clever.

 

Anyway, what's Greece doing sending aid in the first place, aren't they meant to be on the verge of a default? #-o



"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau

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