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Omali

China Using Prisoners To Farm MMOs

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I might've missed it, but I personally didn't say it was on the top 100 things to worry about. But it doesn't make it something that we can't discuss and have emotions toward.

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I might've missed it, but I personally didn't say it was on the top 100 things to worry about. But it doesn't make it something that we can't discuss and have emotions toward.

Disproving something you just made up is easier than disproving a real remark. :razz:

 

Imo Blyaunte is either trolling or suffering from severe tunnel vision. #-o

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Look, I'm not going to lie, there is nothing you can say to me that will make me believe that goldfarming in Chinese prisons is even on the top 100 list of things that needs to be fixed in this world right now. Anyone who thinks so should watch CNN for a few days. Plus, we should be proud of China, in all their long history of human rights abuse, this is a far cry from the "great leap forward" which caused the deaths of over twenty million Chinese people, or the "great proletarian revolution" which decapitated any form of educated leadership outside the communist party.

 

Seriously, if this is the worst story you've heard all week, you live in an extreme bubble.

 

A goal for our governments should be the end of human rights abuses that go on in China, the gold farming is just another subsection of those abuses.

 

But the point in this news article, as I've said before, is that when you're buying gold from these Chinese gold farmers, you're not doing it from some guy trying to get through college. You're actively funding some guy getting his ass beaten with a PVC pipe because he didn't make quota the previous week.


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A goal for our governments should be the end of human rights abuses that go on in China, the gold farming is just another subsection of those abuses.

No, that should be a goal for their government. I don't know how they do it on your country, but when the people in my country were oppressed by a dictatorship, we managed to kick them off the throne by ourselves.

 

Before even thinking about others, a government should think about their own problems.


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Look, I'm not going to lie, there is nothing you can say to me that will make me believe that goldfarming in Chinese prisons is even on the top 100 list of things that needs to be fixed in this world right now. Anyone who thinks so should watch CNN for a few days. Plus, we should be proud of China, in all their long history of human rights abuse, this is a far cry from the "great leap forward" which caused the deaths of over twenty million Chinese people, or the "great proletarian revolution" which decapitated any form of educated leadership outside the communist party.

 

Seriously, if this is the worst story you've heard all week, you live in an extreme bubble.

 

A goal for our governments should be the end of human rights abuses that go on in China, the gold farming is just another subsection of those abuses.

 

But the point in this news article, as I've said before, is that when you're buying gold from these Chinese gold farmers, you're not doing it from some guy trying to get through college. You're actively funding some guy getting his ass beaten with a PVC pipe because he didn't make quota the previous week.

 

I somehow doubt that's true for the majority of gold sellers. And even if it were, I'd rather them make money off the prisoners than go back to finger-chopping.

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Look, I'm not going to lie, there is nothing you can say to me that will make me believe that goldfarming in Chinese prisons is even on the top 100 list of things that needs to be fixed in this world right now. Anyone who thinks so should watch CNN for a few days. Plus, we should be proud of China, in all their long history of human rights abuse, this is a far cry from the "great leap forward" which caused the deaths of over twenty million Chinese people, or the "great proletarian revolution" which decapitated any form of educated leadership outside the communist party.

 

Seriously, if this is the worst story you've heard all week, you live in an extreme bubble.

 

A goal for our governments should be the end of human rights abuses that go on in China, the gold farming is just another subsection of those abuses.

 

But the point in this news article, as I've said before, is that when you're buying gold from these Chinese gold farmers, you're not doing it from some guy trying to get through college. You're actively funding some guy getting his ass beaten with a PVC pipe because he didn't make quota the previous week.

 

why is it any of American's/brits business to how China treats their prisoners? What can we threaten them with?

 

Cut off trade? Not going to happen

UN response? Means nothing against a global superpower

Complain about their policy on the internet? SOUNDS LEGIT TO ME LOLLOLL

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Look, I'm not going to lie, there is nothing you can say to me that will make me believe that goldfarming in Chinese prisons is even on the top 100 list of things that needs to be fixed in this world right now. Anyone who thinks so should watch CNN for a few days. Plus, we should be proud of China, in all their long history of human rights abuse, this is a far cry from the "great leap forward" which caused the deaths of over twenty million Chinese people, or the "great proletarian revolution" which decapitated any form of educated leadership outside the communist party.

 

Seriously, if this is the worst story you've heard all week, you live in an extreme bubble.

 

A goal for our governments should be the end of human rights abuses that go on in China, the gold farming is just another subsection of those abuses.

 

But the point in this news article, as I've said before, is that when you're buying gold from these Chinese gold farmers, you're not doing it from some guy trying to get through college. You're actively funding some guy getting his ass beaten with a PVC pipe because he didn't make quota the previous week.

 

I somehow doubt that's true for the majority of gold sellers. And even if it were, I'd rather them make money off the prisoners than go back to finger-chopping.

 

But according to the article, the gold farming is happening in addition to the "finger chopping." It's not one or the other, it's both.


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I'm genuinely saddened by some of the comments here.. While I agree that there are other things that the global community should be worrying about, it's really upsetting to see people calling torture "hilarious", and then trying to argue that being forced to "play" for 12 hours straight in addition to physical labour isn't torture is worse.

 

This argument will probably be countered with:

1. Me being told is CAPITALS that I haven't read the article

2. That playing WoW is actually really fun, especially in 12 hour periods

 

I mean really, I used to respect Blyaunte (resident lurker), but this has shocked me - I honestly thought her first post was trolling.

 

 

Slightly more OT:

 

This is horrible to hear about.

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[hide]

I just find it kind of hilarious TBH -- this image of chubby bloated couch potato-esque prisoners being "forced" to play computer games -- as opposed to the physical demand of hard labour ...

 

:lol:

Did you even read the article?

 

Why yes, as a matter of fact I did -- didn't you? Shall I read it for you?

 

 

Once upon a time in a land far far away, there was this place where bad people went and they banged rocks, fletched chopsticks, read books and played video games. It was all such hard work.

 

The end.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Satire does not become the situation at all. This is a major problem which the public has had at least an idea of in the past - where people who were either poor or enslaved had to do stuff like this.

 

Truthfully I thought that China had "outlawed" the sale of virtual gold. If prisons are doing this, then it's a pandemic that can't be stopped by simply going to the Chinese government [again] and asking nicely.

 

On the contrary, it's a hilarious situation. You've got murderers, rapists and goodness-knows what other types of known criminals who, instead of being punished through hard-labour, are now all huddled in front of computer screens playing video games -- and complaining about it ...

 

:rolleyes:

Further proof that you did not read the article. Not all of these people are the low point of society, "Liu Dali was imprisoned by the Chinese government in 2004 for 'illegally petitioning' it to end the rampant corruption in his hometown. He was sentenced to 3 years at the Jixi labor camp."

 

Oh -- yeah -- how silly of me. Everyone's innocent in prison, right? :rolleyes:

[/hide]

 

Very disappointing to hear someone talk like this after collectivist principles have shown time and time again to be at best a breeding ground for lackadaisical effort and at worst - genocide. I'd call you despicable if you had any idea what you were saying.

 

I'll agree that comparably speaking, being forced to play video games is not that bad. I also agree that the people in those prisons for things like murder and rape should not be complaining whatsoever.

 

However rolling your eyes and making light of tyranny and injustice, the same type of tyranny and injustice that has facilitated and mobilized handfuls of genocides and purgings, I think it is best that you apologize to everyone for your ignorance/disconnection.

Edited by ForsakenMage
Wall of quotes now in hide tags.

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my reply to the warring in here?

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So China figured out how to profit off their prison system? Well in that case at least their citizens probably don't have to pay taxes for it. Is the USA taking notes yet? And as far as human rights go... don't you give (most of) those up when you land yourself in prison?


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So China figured out how to profit off their prison system? Well in that case at least their citizens probably don't have to pay taxes for it. Is the USA taking notes yet? And as far as human rights go... don't you give (most of) those up when you land yourself in prison?

No, you give up your liberties not your rights.


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I can assure you that you won't change my mind on this. I am just as much, if not more, stubborn then Ms.Blyaunte here. Not only am I stubborn, but I really don't give a [cabbage]. :).

Ok...then you're clearly a troll. If you didn't care at all you wouldn't post, unless you gained enjoyment from pissing me off; hence a troll.

I didn't post to piss anyone off. I saw something funny, and that I sided with somebody, and so I posted such. If you don't like my view or opinion, that's your prerogative. But these people know what very well may get them thrown into prison, even if it's not clearly against the law. They know what happens in their own prison systems. If they still chose to do such a thing, then they pay the consequences. You can't tell me every person in that prison is behind bars/computer screens for petitioning. I'm sure many, if not most, are thieves, rapists, murderers (Who are lucky to have and do not even deserve their own breath).

 

Being forced to play WoW is by far not the worse thing that could happen to them in such system. It's not the worse thing that is happening either.


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I can assure you that you won't change my mind on this. I am just as much, if not more, stubborn then Ms.Blyaunte here. Not only am I stubborn, but I really don't give a [cabbage]. :).

Ok...then you're clearly a troll. If you didn't care at all you wouldn't post, unless you gained enjoyment from pissing me off; hence a troll.

I didn't post to piss anyone off. I saw something funny, and that I sided with somebody, and so I posted such. If you don't like my view or opinion, that's your prerogative. But these people know what very well may get them thrown into prison, even if it's not clearly against the law. They know what happens in their own prison systems. If they still chose to do such a thing, then they pay the consequences. You can't tell me every person in that prison is behind bars/computer screens for petitioning. I'm sure many, if not most, are thieves, rapists, murderers (Who are lucky to have and do not even deserve their own breath).

 

Being forced to play WoW is by far not the worse thing that could happen to them in such system. It's not the worse thing that is happening either.

Wait, so you think that punishing thievery with torture is acceptable?

 

In other words, if you were starving and stole bread for your family, you'd consider it just to be just to be locked into prison and forced to do back breaking labor by day, and slave in front of a computer by night as sleep deprivation and exhaustion slowly and permanently damaged your psyche?

 

And if you think China is even mostly fair when it coems to punishment, you should probably learn a bit more about the country.

Besides, it's better to let a thief walk free than to incarcerate an innocent man for his entire life.

 

Edit:

Admittedly it isn't the woprst thing that could happen to them, however if I were to walk up to you and shoot you in the arm, and then say that you don't deserve sympathy because plenty of people get shot in the heart, would you not be outraged?

Just because worse thigns can happen doesn't eman than bad things shouldn't be opposed and stood against.

And it isn't just "being forced to play WoW", as you seem to fail to understand. Although from the way you've been posting I don't think you can even guess as to what forced sleep deprivation can do to a person.


The only difference between Hitler and the man next door who comes home and beats his kids every day is circumstance. The intent is the same-- to harm others.

[hide=Tifers say the darndest things]

I told her there was a secret method to doing it - and there is - but my once nimble and agile fingers were unable to perform because I was under the influence.

I would laugh, not hate. I'm a male. :(

Since when was Ireland an island...? :wall:

I actually have a hobby of licking public toilet seats.

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Blaim Blizzard, not China.

How does that even make sense? It's not like Blizzard encourages gold farming, nevermind gold farming done by prisoners in highly adverse conditions.

 

You might as well say "Don't blame me for stabbing that man, blame the blacksmith for making the knife!"


The only difference between Hitler and the man next door who comes home and beats his kids every day is circumstance. The intent is the same-- to harm others.

[hide=Tifers say the darndest things]

I told her there was a secret method to doing it - and there is - but my once nimble and agile fingers were unable to perform because I was under the influence.

I would laugh, not hate. I'm a male. :(

Since when was Ireland an island...? :wall:

I actually have a hobby of licking public toilet seats.

[/hide]

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I can assure you that you won't change my mind on this. I am just as much, if not more, stubborn then Ms.Blyaunte here. Not only am I stubborn, but I really don't give a [cabbage]. :).

Ok...then you're clearly a troll. If you didn't care at all you wouldn't post, unless you gained enjoyment from pissing me off; hence a troll.

I didn't post to piss anyone off. I saw something funny, and that I sided with somebody, and so I posted such. If you don't like my view or opinion, that's your prerogative.

 

Right, but you also talked about starting a flame war. I was saying that if you truly did not give a [cabbage] you wouldn't have posted. Since you did you either do care about the actual discussion at hand, or about sharing your sense of humor.

 

But these people know what very well may get them thrown into prison, even if it's not clearly against the law. They know what happens in their own prison systems. If they still chose to do such a thing, then they pay the consequences. You can't tell me every person in that prison is behind bars/computer screens for petitioning. I'm sure many, if not most, are thieves, rapists, murderers (Who are lucky to have and do not even deserve their own breath).

 

Do some [bleep]ing research. Here's a snippet for you: "500,000 Number of people believed to be in arbitrary detention at any given time in China." Besides, because of the lack of transparency that I stated before (That you did not respond to) keeps us from knowing the crimes most of the prisoners committed. And if you're making a generalization based off of the US prison system, you have a lot to learn. Most of the prisoners in the US system committed drug offenses based on our horribly ineffective War on Drugs Policy.

 

Being forced to play WoW is by far not the worse thing that could happen to them in such system. It's not the worse thing that is happening either.

 

Read my post about the definition of playing, and how what these prisoners are doing couldn't be defined as "play" by any stretch of the imagination.


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Blaim Blizzard, not China.

How does that even make sense? It's not like Blizzard encourages gold farming, nevermind gold farming done by prisoners in highly adverse conditions.

 

You might as well say "Don't blame me for stabbing that man, blame the blacksmith for making the knife!"

 

No Blizzard, no torture!

Ban the internet.

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As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells.

 

Sees All, I applaud you for continually posting this quote - and no, I'm not being facetious.

 

Blyaunte, let's review this once more, in depth, shall we?

 

"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through..."

(This is where you're going to want to start paying attention and pull your head out of your ass, all right?)

"TOUGH DAYS breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China."

 

So, even with your convoluted logic, surely we can agree he did manual labour during the day. Now, if you continue to read, you're going to see something really interesting that you may have missed.

"BY NIGHT, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."

(You seem to have missed this part for the last 12 pages of this thread, so feel free to be extra careful when reading that.)

 

So let's review. Essentially, this quote says that BY DAY, he did manual labour, and BY NIGHT, he gold-farmed.

Now, I ain't no fancy, big-city lawyer or nothin', but where I come from, when you put DAY and NIGHT together, it takes about 24 hours.

 

So, now that we (or at least I) have established the mechanics of days, time, and whatnot, let's talk about sleep deprivation, shall we?

Webmd defines sleep deprivation as "a sufficient lack of restorative sleep over a cumulative period so as to cause physical or psychiatric symptoms and affect routine performances of tasks."

We also know from the article that "We kept playing until we could barely see things."

 

So given the mechanics of a day, and the definition of sleep deprivation, we can determine that he was sleep deprived.

 

Now, to quote Israeli Prime Minister, Menachem Begin (1977 - 1983), on his experience regarding sleep deprivation:

"In the head of the interrogated prisoner, a haze begins to form. His spirit is wearied to death, his legs are unsteady, and he has one sole desire: to sleep... Anyone who has experienced this desire knows that not even hunger and thirst are comparable with it."

 

To review, we have now determined that Liu Dali was sleep deprived, and that sleep deprivation is bad.

 

Now, given that Begin states that "not even hunger and thirst are comparable with it," I ask: would recreating the psychological effects of starving someone without killing them be considered torture? If so, then wouldn't forcing sleep deprivation on somebody also be considered torture?

 

Now, Blyaunte, I'm highly confident I won't change your views. However, consider this: IF we assume that Liu Dali is sleep deprived, then does it matter how he is sleep deprived? You seem to be putting an extremely large emphasis on the fact that WoW was the method they used to deprive him of sleep. What if the article instead had him being forced to stare into a bright light for 12 hours, and being beaten in he stopped looking at it? Ironically enough, I think that this a failure on your part to exercise perspective, which you have been using as your mantra, essentially saying "LOL, Y U NO USE PURSPECTIVE DIS IS SO MUCH LESS WORSE DEYN THE HOLOCAUST LOLOLOOLOLOLOLOL."

 

I await your response, and please don't clip out any paragraph that doesn't support your convoluted logic. This post works as a whole, and in segments is not an argument. That's why I didn't write this across 10 posts: because it's meant to be read as a whole.

 

EDIT: I removed the comment about Blyaunte's progeny; admittedly, that was not needed, and I apologize.


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Panzer, no need to be nasty mate. There, i said it with a nice tone. :thumbup:

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P.S.

Please neuter your children. If your progeny ever reproduce, all hope will be lost.

Let's please not go down this route, it's rude, unnecessary, destroys your credibility, and we're discussing ideas not people here. Bly, I don't agree with most of what you've said here, but I'll apologize for this kind of behavior.


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P.S.

Please neuter your children. If your progeny ever reproduce, all hope will be lost.

Let's please not go down this route, it's rude, unnecessary, destroys your credibility, and we're discussing ideas not people here. Bly, I don't agree with most of what you've said here, but I'll apologize for this kind of behavior.

I agree, this is where threads take a turn for the worse. There is absolutely no need for personal attacks.

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[hide]

I just find it kind of hilarious TBH -- this image of chubby bloated couch potato-esque prisoners being "forced" to play computer games -- as opposed to the physical demand of hard labour ...

 

:lol:

Did you even read the article?

 

Why yes, as a matter of fact I did -- didn't you? Shall I read it for you?

 

Once upon a time in a land far far away, there was this place where bad people went and they banged rocks, fletched chopsticks, read books and played video games. It was all such hard work.

 

The end.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Satire does not become the situation at all. This is a major problem which the public has had at least an idea of in the past - where people who were either poor or enslaved had to do stuff like this.

 

Truthfully I thought that China had "outlawed" the sale of virtual gold. If prisons are doing this, then it's a pandemic that can't be stopped by simply going to the Chinese government [again] and asking nicely.

 

On the contrary, it's a hilarious situation. You've got murderers, rapists and goodness-knows what other types of known criminals who, instead of being punished through hard-labour, are now all huddled in front of computer screens playing video games -- and complaining about it ...

 

:rolleyes:

Further proof that you did not read the article. Not all of these people are the low point of society, "Liu Dali was imprisoned by the Chinese government in 2004 for 'illegally petitioning' it to end the rampant corruption in his hometown. He was sentenced to 3 years at the Jixi labor camp."

 

Oh -- yeah -- how silly of me. Everyone's innocent in prison, right? :rolleyes:

[/hide]

 

This is almost as bad as the time when someone said the 13-year-old girl who gave her full address, arranged several meetings, and pulled her pants off to some 50-year-old comic creep was IN NO WAY AT FAULT WHATSOEVER. You should educate yourself and find out the facts before you get passionate about your opinions.

Edited by ForsakenMage
Wall of quotes now in hide tags.

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You never answered my question. I am curious.

 

Have you tried, oh I don't know, READING THE ARTICLE?

 

"Memories from his detention at Jixi re-education-through-labour camp ..."

Seriously, are you saying that I haven't read the article?

[spoiler=A previous post of mine]

Time to do this thoroughly.

 

I must say, Blyaunte, that my perception of you was established early in this thread:

 

"I just find it kind of hilarious TBH -- this image of chubby bloated couch potato-esque prisoners being "forced" to play computer games -- as opposed to the physical demand of hard labour ...

 

:lol:"

 

The way you type "forced" implies (to me, but this would be the general consesus) that you do not believe them to have anything against this. You also seem to be of the impression that the forced goldfarming is "opposed to the physical demand of hard labour". Let me quote the article:

 

 

"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."

 

Seeing as this is the very first paragraph in the article, I find it hard to believe that you missed it, seeing as you have read it. He "would slog through tough days breaking rocks... By night, he would slay demons..." This appears to me as an addition, not a replacement. Combined physical labor and mental work is more tiring than physical work alone. 1 + 1 > 1

 

 

"Once upon a time in a land far far away, there was this place where bad people went and they banged rocks, fletched chopsticks, read books and played video games. It was all such hard work.

 

The end.

 

:rolleyes:"

 

This is one of many examples where you generalise to make the matter seem more acceptable. Overly simplifying their forced labor, adding "cosy" cosy activities (I don't recall seeing 'reading books' anywhere in the article, which must be regarded as the source material in this matter), and the rolling eyes at the end indicates to me that you underestimate the gravity of this.

 

 

"You've got murderers, rapists and goodness-knows what other types of known criminals who, instead of being punished through hard-labour, are now all huddled in front of computer screens playing video games -- and complaining about it ...

 

:rolleyes:"

 

Here, you assume what crimes the inmates have committed (you also imply that the goldfarming is instead of physical labor, but I've already mentioned that). Liu Dali wsa imprisoned for

 

""illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown."

 

I assume you are aware of the strict reign of the Chinese government, and their general disregard for human rights? If not, do some research (if you can't be bothered, here's a little taste of it). Many prisoners in Chinese prisons are there because they questioned their authorities, or tried to gain insight into the government workings. Many are imprisoned without trial, but disappear without anyone knowing where they are. You know about last year's Nobel's Peace Prize winner, Liu Xiaobo? He called for political reforms, and got thrown in jail. All celebrations by the Chinese people on his accomplishment were stopped or curtailed. His wife was put in house arrest. This is a brief image of the prison systems in China, don't assume that they are all rapists and murderers.

As for your further attempts to ridicule the prisons by statements like "all criminals are innocent, right?", try again.

 

 

"Are you so dense as to think that this really has ANYTHING to do with "world affairs"? Really?"

 

The immoral treatment of wrongfully (in the international society's standards) imprisoned people, and the effect this has on foreign economies etc., yes it does.

 

 

"On a scale of world-wide issues – ranging from world peace, the Arab Spring, the death of bin Laden, the world economic crisis, flooding, tornadoes, earthquakes, the Sudan, Israel/Arab relations and everything else – not to mention that the rapture is coming on May 21, 2011 October 21, 2011 – a news story that, some FOUR YEARS AGO, the Chinese were "forcing" prisoners to play video games for money, isn't even a distant BLIP on the radar of what is newsworthy or of any concern, at all.

 

Jesus Christ, people, get some PERSPECTIVE already ..."

 

Because something is not the worst that is happening, that does not mean that it deserves no attention or seeing-to.

 

 

For your next series of arguments, I quote myself:

 

"Waterboarding is torture. Being beaten with a rubber hose is torture. There's a long list of things that are torture.

 

Playing a video-game is not on that list. Nor will it ever be."

 

Where on that list of yours is sleep deprivation?

Hard physical labor > hard physical labor + sleep-depriving forced goldfarming + risk of further torture

 

 

"... and four year old news is four year old news – the world continues to spin on its axis unabated ..."

 

Letting time pass doesn't make things go away. A torturist who get to keep on after a report has been filed is not "innocent" because the reported incident was one of the past.

 

As for you later response, claiming the sleep deprivation to be invented, here's a quote for you:

 

"We kept playing until we could barely see things."

 

This is not, as you have suggested, a result of poor eyesight or lousy graphic cards. Notice "kept playing until". This means that originally, they saw things. As they became tired, they lost focus, and eventually their eyesight deteriorated as a result of fatigue.

 

 

 

This would be a nice time to take a break from reading and get some air.

 

 

 

"Because trading virtual currency for real cash is somewhat shady, the Chinese government introduced a directive in 2009 making it illegal for businesses to trade virtual currency unless they had a license. Dali was released from prison before this directive, but he believes that prisoners are still being exploited.

 

"Many prisons across the northeast of China also forced inmates to play games. It must still be happening," Dali told The Guardian."

 

Translation: I claim it happened -- so it must still be happening -- even though the authorities have taken action against it.

 

Am I the only person who's read the above quote? Really? I must be. The rest of you are running around with your arms flailing and mouths dangling open -- and you're all up about how terrible this whole thing is -- and all I can see is drama queens being drama queens making drama queens make drama."

 

If you read a bit more of the article, it states that

 

"According to figures from the China Internet Centre, nearly £1.2bn of make- believe currencies were traded in China in 2008 and the number of gamers who play to earn and trade credits are on the rise."

 

The business is growing. China has a tradition for using inmates for whatever is more profitable. You need half a brain-stem to figure this one out.

 

 

 

"1. China is a sovereign nation -- what they do within the confines of their own borders to their own people is their own business. If you don't agree with that, then let's open EVERYONE to scrutiny and take a look at how EVERYONE treats their prison population. You'd likely find this less appealing though -- some countries actually murder their own people in prisons and call it punishment."

 

Yes, China is a sovereign nation. That doesn't mean that the international society cannot and should not impose pressure on them.

 

 

"2. The value of an individual's life, the rights that are determined to pertain thereto, varies from country to country. Don't expect any country with over a billion people in it -- to house, maintain and adjudicate -- to have the same concepts of "human rights" and values as your own Western democracy purports to have. "

 

This is part of the problem here, China's general lack of human rights. Fix that, and the problems will be so too.

 

 

"3. If the idea of "forcing" someone to play a video game is your idea of mistreatment -- then, you've a LOT to learn about the cruelty of the world ..."

 

Again, poor use of signs in "forcing". Beating someone if they don't do as you say is generally considered 'forcing'. Again, just because there are worse things in the world, that doesn't make the less-ill treatments ok.

 

 

"Honestly -- the value of human life varies from person to person, really."

 

People's impression of a human life's value varies. Not the value itself.

 

 

"If you want to open China's treatment of prisoners to scrutiny, and condemn them for the things they do, then you'd better be damn well prepared to condemn the treatment of prisoners in some other countries -- particularly those barbaric countries where prisoners are executed, and others held in secret off-site locations where they are routinely tortured."

 

Isn't this exactly what China is doing? Daily torture is routine enough for me!

 

 

"You're all acting as though this is the worst thing ever, and it's this response that is entirely laughable."

 

This is not the worst thing ever, but it is still a bad thing.

 

 

"If, say, the Americans made an al-Qaeda "terrorist" play Runescape, non-stop, without ever letting him sleep, would that be considered torture too? Would you condemn that too?"

 

Yes.

 

 

"1. So far, I have shown this thread to my children, my husband and a half dozen other people IRL -- and they've all agreed with me. Okay, maybe we're all screwed up, but the point is that there's something that some of you are clearly missing, and that appears to be a sense of perspective. Hell, my own son, who plays WoW, read the article and the thread, and half-way through this thread turned to me and said, "They do realize that there's are huge number of people who play WoW for 3-4 days straight, right?" No. Apparently not. "

 

3-4 hours without punishment hanging over you > 12 hours after dayshifts with punishment hanging over you

 

 

"2. Secondly, for the purposes of double-checking my own response to this subject matter, I have also dropped the original post and the link to the article in question into two political message forums in which I participate. The main response to it is -- why aren't [we] using this same system in [our country] to make money off [our] prison system? So far, everyone I know is complete agreement that the entire idea of playing WoW for 12 hour shifts as some form of torture is not only laughable, but the responses aimed at me are, likewise, just plain silly. As compared to the long list of atrocities employed by humanity upon humanity, over the course of human history, making someone play a video game under threat of personal injury is, as I said, not even up for consideration as anything more than laughable. Hell -- I am old enough to remember how, in school, the teachers would "improve" our handwriting skills by breaking rulers across our knuckles -- and that was the least of punishments received in those days. Heaven forbid that you complained about it to your parents either, because you'd likely receive a punishment of equal value."

 

It is the combination of factors here that make the system despicable. Also, comparing past punishment of yours to this makes no sense.

 

 

"3. Thirdly, I'd like to point out something set down in the original article that was clearly missed: it's not even the editor's/writer's opinion that the prisoners playing WoW are sleep-deprived. Read the article again. There is nowhere in that article where it indicates that prisoners were forced to operate under conditions of extreme sleep deprivation. It's implied by some readers, sure enough, and that is clear in their postings here, but that notions is not provided by the source himself or anywhere within the article itself. You all jumped to conclusions that simply weren't there. Threw yourselves into a veritable tizzy about it, in fact. Personally, I find it amusing that I was repeatedly challenged that I hadn't "read the article" when it was abundantly clear that I had, comprehended it, and didn't bastardize the contents of it. :shame: "

 

Read the first paragraph of the article again.

 

 

"4. Finally, for those armchair International Politics experts trying to exert certain concepts related to the operations of United Nations with respect to the employment of "Universal Human Rights", you may want to better educate yourselves before you engage in these types of discussions. For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights. As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking. There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ..."

 

Yes, UN does not and can not force sovereign countries to do anything. What they can do and should do is to impose international pressure on Chinese authorities. This is why the UN was made. To impose international pressure through agreements.

As for your tips concerning how to build an argument, look at some of your earlier posts. Reconsider whether you are fit or not to give such advice.

 

That's about it so far.

 

TL;DR: Read it, ffs.

 

Yes, the quoting here is wonky, that is because of a maximum number of quotes on this forum. I apologize for this.

 

What on earth is your basis of even implying that I haven't read the article? Your logic is flawed on every level at this point.

 

OT: Blyaunte is clearly a troll, I will not spend more time on this.


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Proud Quester!

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