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Return of the wildy/free trade-do you regret your vote?


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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

 

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.

 

General pking is less profitable than it was before because it's always zero-sum, one person's profit is another person's loss That coupled with a general lack of high value drops like statuettes makes it hard to even break even unless you're good at pking.

 

And a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.

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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

 

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.

 

General pking is probably less profitable than it was before, and a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.

 

I said pvp because that includes staking, which a lot of people seem to say has helped them make lots of money. I never said a pvp bot was probable, my point was that if it ever does happen those who are happy with the current game will immediately call for changes because bots will then be ruining the game for them.

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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

 

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.

 

General pking is probably less profitable than it was before, and a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.

 

I said pvp because that includes staking, which a lot of people seem to say has helped them make lots of money. I never said a pvp bot was probable, my point was that if it ever does happen those who are happy with the current game will immediately call for changes because bots will then be ruining the game for them.

 

How will bots ruin the game for pvpers? That doesn't make any sense.

 

And don't blame bots for the skilling situation in RS. Blame grinders and skill capes. Botting has been around forever, and it never impacted the market as much as skill capes did. It put players into a grind mode, pushing past the reasonable levels of 70 for herblore, whatever the max agil obstacle lvl was, etc etc, simply to gain a prettier cape. This factor resulting in unprofitable skilling, not botting. I still remember I was in the top 200 for 99 fletching and only got it for the epic profits of alching mage longs, or having 55 herblore for supers and making so much money selling them. Now, you lose money doing any skill (except gathering) not due to botters, but due to the newfound grinding nature of players I believe came about due to skill capes.

 

So I say, the only thing that will damage pvp is implementing a similar grind desire, and I think that's nearly impossible as anyone who pks, does so for fun.

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seeing how i voted no, i don't. i knew it would be a massive influx of bots and scammers, and i was right.

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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

 

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.

 

General pking is probably less profitable than it was before, and a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.

 

I said pvp because that includes staking, which a lot of people seem to say has helped them make lots of money. I never said a pvp bot was probable, my point was that if it ever does happen those who are happy with the current game will immediately call for changes because bots will then be ruining the game for them.

 

Staking is also zero sum, only on a larger scale. One person's "make bank" is another person's "GF RS" or "cleaned start over". You can't consider it a profitable activity by any means, especially for maxed players who stake other max players in 50/50 fights.

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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

 

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.

 

General pking is less profitable than it was before because it's always zero-sum, one person's profit is another person's loss That coupled with a general lack of high value drops like statuettes makes it hard to even break even unless you're good at pking.

 

And a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.

 

They make scripts for chess that can beat actual players,

 

They make scripts in RTS games that can beat actual players.

 

Now for RS someone could make a script that could beat a real player in pvp.

 

For chess it's not a "script", it's called an engine. And finding the best move in a chess game relies upon a lot of principles, and there's only a set amount of moves so a computer that can basically calculate all possible moves and analyze all position isn't that crazy/cutting edge/unlikely as people think.

 

I don't think there are scrips that play RTS games either. There are AIM bots and stuff like that, but there's no actual program that basically plays a game of CoD and moves around and is actually successful, it's to complex for someone to make a "script" for.

 

RS pvp is a bit simpler, but the same concept applies. They can't write a bot to have a character move around the wilderness, know which places to avoid, attack all players that are judged to be having a decent risk, know how to stay alive when getting piled, when to put on the ahrims and cast a barrage, when to spec, ect. And even if you're judgement is perfect there's the luck factor in which even the best pkers who make perfect judgement calls will still get KOed by a lucky spec or something.There's too much grey area and too many things that require judgement involved in pking that's basically unlike boss hunting and all the other grindy activities in runescape. It's not just simple kill/bank either, there's too many unpredictable variables that a "script" would be impossible.

 

Maybe a runescape robot/engine or something, but that would be something on a new level completely and i think at the point where technolgoy reaches that level the rest of the game would already be completely ruined by bots and runescape can be officially considered dead anyway. I'm sure technology can achieve anything, but it's going to take a lot more than bot programmers have now to create an effective pking bot.

 

It also seems incredibly pointless to bot something like this, people mainly pk for fun not money, and unless you're luring pking isn't a good nor even guaranteed money maker. It's about as pointless as making a staking bot for boxing.

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I voted for wildy/free trade back, and I don't regret my decision.

 

Having old wildy back = no more annoying revenants patrolling all over. And free trade means free gifts and donations |^_^|

 

Bots to me are simply an annoyance, they don't really hamper what I do on Runescape that much.

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I voted no because after seeing how jagex dealt with the problems of 26/76king, merch clans, and how they had already started going soft on bots, I really did not trust them when they said thay would be willing and able to deal with the issues, and now the bot problem is so much worse than I was expecting it to get.

With limited trade, a very large majority of bots were simply gaining exp/money for that player, and, though they were a problem, didn't have such a big impact, chins and green dragons were the main places for bots, and now even turoths are more crowded than green dragons were.

Now bots are a lot different, on top of these training bots, there are bots that gather money for RWTing, or to give to a main, and now they have taken over a lot of training spots that no one would have thought they could before, including frost dragons, aviansies, sorceress garden, etc.

and as a result have greatly damaged my main sources of income

 

so no, I do not regret my vote

 

don't get me wrong, I did miss some aspects of free trade:

pkers were a lot less irrtating than pkers when doing clues, they were a lot harder to find, when they saw clue gear they were less likely to attack, but if they did they were more likely to kill you, making clue hunting in wild a bit more exciting

 

however these positives don't even come close to outweight the negatives

 

I really don't like the way jagex has started to go in the last year or so, whether its Mod MMG (though I'm pretty sure he's been around much longer), the corporate investors or whoever

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They make scripts for chess that can beat actual players,

 

They make scripts in RTS games that can beat actual players.

 

Now for RS someone could make a script that could beat a real player in pvp.

 

It was said earlier, but...

 

Nah...that's not possible. Chess is finite - there's something on the order of 1000000000080 or higher potential moves for it. (Go is finite in that sense too but the number is so insanely high that figuring out the combinations is computationally intensive, and can't be done in this day and age).

 

RTS games work differently as there are multiple strategies that can be employed throughout the game - I'd encourage the curious person to look at the Berkeley Overmind. Still computationally intensive.

 

A PvP player in RS is trickier to counter. What are the possible armor/weapon combinations? Possible attack/defense/strength ranges? Possible HP? Remaining HP? Possible inventory layout? Possible familiar and its layout? Possible combat style? Possible plan to run for backup? Possible to run into a field of aggressive NPCs that could cause damage and/or loss of target? Possible to run into obstacles that could cause loss of target?

 

Ad. Infinitum.

 

*walks off*

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They make scripts for chess that can beat actual players,

 

They make scripts in RTS games that can beat actual players.

 

Now for RS someone could make a script that could beat a real player in pvp.

 

It was said earlier, but...

 

Nah...that's not possible. Chess is finite - there's something on the order of 1000000000080 or higher potential moves for it. (Go is finite in that sense too but the number is so insanely high that figuring out the combinations is computationally intensive, and can't be done in this day and age).

 

RTS games work differently as there are multiple strategies that can be employed throughout the game - I'd encourage the curious person to look at the Berkeley Overmind. Still computationally intensive.

 

A PvP player in RS is trickier to counter. What are the possible armor/weapon combinations? Possible attack/defense/strength ranges? Possible HP? Remaining HP? Possible inventory layout? Possible familiar and its layout? Possible combat style? Possible plan to run for backup? Possible to run into a field of aggressive NPCs that could cause damage and/or loss of target? Possible to run into obstacles that could cause loss of target?

 

Ad. Infinitum.

 

*walks off*

 

Most of what you say is true, but there are chess programs that rival Grandmasters, and i can confirm most of the high level chess programs are virtually impossible for normal players to beat (USCF rating<2000 would probably be unable to beat it). While chess is finite, most of all those "potential moves" are practically useless and will basically hurt you in a chess game, there are only a small fraction of those which are playable moves in a given position, which is what makes it possible to make chess engines to think like a human.

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They make scripts for chess that can beat actual players,

 

They make scripts in RTS games that can beat actual players.

 

Now for RS someone could make a script that could beat a real player in pvp.

 

It was said earlier, but...

 

Nah...that's not possible. Chess is finite - there's something on the order of 1000000000080 or higher potential moves for it. (Go is finite in that sense too but the number is so insanely high that figuring out the combinations is computationally intensive, and can't be done in this day and age).

 

RTS games work differently as there are multiple strategies that can be employed throughout the game - I'd encourage the curious person to look at the Berkeley Overmind. Still computationally intensive.

 

A PvP player in RS is trickier to counter. What are the possible armor/weapon combinations? Possible attack/defense/strength ranges? Possible HP? Remaining HP? Possible inventory layout? Possible familiar and its layout? Possible combat style? Possible plan to run for backup? Possible to run into a field of aggressive NPCs that could cause damage and/or loss of target? Possible to run into obstacles that could cause loss of target?

 

Ad. Infinitum.

 

*walks off*

 

Most of what you say is true, but there are chess programs that rival Grandmasters, and i can confirm most of the high level chess programs are virtually impossible for normal players to beat (USCF rating<2000 would probably be unable to beat it). While chess is finite, most of all those "potential moves" are practically useless and will basically hurt you in a chess game, there are only a small fraction of those which are playable moves in a given position, which is what makes it possible to make chess engines to think like a human.

 

Exactly right. Sorry if it seemed ambiguous, but I was well aware that there are chess engines that can beat Grandmasters (Deep Blue).

 

My point is, though, RS has too many variables to confine it to a reasonably calculable value that could be automated. Not just that, but one doesn't know anything of the "state" of the other player (remaining inventory, potions, extra weapons, etc), whereas chess engines and RTS engines do and potentially could, respectively.

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I voted yes, and although I don't think my vote really counted for anything I regret it. I hate the bots and I can only see it getting worse. I've lost my once decent cash pile and now I can't even make a decent profit p/h at frost dragons. After all they hype of free trade I've realised I haven't gained anything. Really I've just lost out on my main source of money.

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I voted yes, but like others I realized that was the only possible outcome. I knew what was coming. And I truly believe that was the beginning of the end. There was a lot of crap in the GE era with item manipulation, but two lines of basic code could have fixed that. Staking? You could have earned the right to stake through a good account reputation. Again, there were problems in the GE era, but had they at least tried to fix them, it would have kept the garbage at bay.

 

Now every world I log in to the GE I see scammers trying to double money, trust game, dice, flower, and etc (or the 50 spam bots in every f2p world). I don't care that it's easy to avoid, but it makes RS look really bad. Like... really bad. I can't see how anyone new over the age of 12 would want to start playing RS now. (And if they do they'll probably just starting botting)

 

And for those talking about PK bots, stop being ridiculous. Modern games with real-time action don't even have the AI yet to constantly defeat a human unless the AI has advantage. In fact, modern AI still kind of sucks. Botting PvE doesn't exactly require good AI. I remember auto-catchers from back in RS1... so there are likely bots that aid a player, but there are no full-fledged do it for you bots.

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Ring_World - I'll be making my reply to you in PM, as it's only tangentially related to the topic at hand.

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I voted Yes, and I don't regret it.

 

Tbh, I could careless if they didn't bring back the wilderness/free trade. Meh... I rarely do anything in RS these days. -_-

 

Btw, no need to bash other on how they voted, it's immature.

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Google trends...

 

Mind you, this is the people SEARCHING for "RS Gold", so the regular customers who have the sites favorited arent shown here...

This graph pretty much means that there is an ever increasing number of people that is looking for a way to cheat...

 

I don't think that there is any graph that displays so clearly the connection between cheaters in RS compared to the Free Trade/Old Wild updates...

 

And when you compare it to this:

 

runescapew.png

 

It shows that there is no indication that the total number of players/ad-clickers/subscribers has increased by a significant amount when Free Trade and Old Wild were reinstated...

 

Yet this chart shows that the year after the removal of Free Trade and the Old Wild, they were on track to start making bigger profits...

 

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Since when are logical replies contrary to your own spam/trolling?

 

Please stop attacking me as a spammer and troll and actually reply to the points I make against you. ITT: you cant and calling me names makes you feel better about your position. In which case I say run along troll I rate you a 2/10 :thumbdown:

 

Ontopic plz? Spamming again, are you? You'll never learn my young padawan.

 

Anyway as stated before you always seem to be choosing sides with the botters, ge manipulators & chat spammers. No matter what people discuss or rant about you always say the opposite. I feel no need to keep pointing your mistakes out as u live in a fantasy world. You say the botting problem hasn't gotten much worse. Well I've seen a drastic chance in F2P/P2P worlds very fast after free trade got re-introduced. Many people say the same, yet you remain stubborn (I guess too proud to admit your wrong) and there you go again spamming some more with offtopic nonsense. Ow well... You'll never learn :) :shame:

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What a childish thread. Basically the notion is "Hey guys! I made an arbitrary vote a while back, but the outcome wasn't what I wanted. Since the effects justify me, let me rub it in your faces!"

 

Free Trade and the old version of the wilderness are back. They have been for a while. The negatives that came with them are back as well.

 

Get off the drama llama and move on.

 

 

As for the "topic," I voted yes because I like staking. I also don't regret it, because I'm successful.

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Yet this chart shows that the year after the removal of Free Trade and the Old Wild, they were on track to start making bigger profits...

 

jagexfinancials.jpg

I'm no economist, but I think that is only true if you look at it percentwise.

 

2005: 2,5m profit

2006: 6,7m profit

2007: 13,1m profit

2008: 17,8m profit

2009: 20,4m profit

 

They only made more and more every year, percentwise became even greedier in the end. That graph shows how much more they could invest in content development and customer support and still make huuuuuge profits.

(not even counting in the pricy failed projects that take budget/developers from RS #-o)

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I also say there is no evidence that botting is much worse now then before (that is an invatation for you to gather some evidence or stop posting).

 

I think it's right to say that they're worse than before, since the spread and usage of bots has exponentially increased. I think it's wrong to say, though, that we wouldn't have been in this exact same place anyway regardless if Free Trade was removed or not. It's simply the increase in sophisticated technology, coding techniques, etc.

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i was kinda regretting ft until now when all of sudden gold pile appeared on ground (in crowded place) and i picked it up and it was nearly max cash...first i couldnt believe what i picked up...have no idea who dropped or why but its going to get me all my buyable skills to 99 lol

i guess being legit and honest finally paid off...

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I voted yes for no other reason than I thought that this may extend the life span of the game by making more people play/return to RuneScape.

 

With all of the things that have taken place over the few months such as dead content, a noticeable increase in hacking, botting, and RWT, Jagex's lack of significant action, and most recently the controversial Vanity Item/Loyalty Rewards I am definitely having second thoughts.

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