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Return of the wildy/free trade-do you regret your vote?


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#121
Maskyn
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Nope, I do not regret voting no. Everyone with a clear mind could've expected this to happen...

#122
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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.


General pking is less profitable than it was before because it's always zero-sum, one person's profit is another person's loss That coupled with a general lack of high value drops like statuettes makes it hard to even break even unless you're good at pking.

And a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.

#123
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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.


General pking is probably less profitable than it was before, and a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.


I said pvp because that includes staking, which a lot of people seem to say has helped them make lots of money. I never said a pvp bot was probable, my point was that if it ever does happen those who are happy with the current game will immediately call for changes because bots will then be ruining the game for them.
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#124
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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.


General pking is probably less profitable than it was before, and a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.


I said pvp because that includes staking, which a lot of people seem to say has helped them make lots of money. I never said a pvp bot was probable, my point was that if it ever does happen those who are happy with the current game will immediately call for changes because bots will then be ruining the game for them.


How will bots ruin the game for pvpers? That doesn't make any sense.

And don't blame bots for the skilling situation in RS. Blame grinders and skill capes. Botting has been around forever, and it never impacted the market as much as skill capes did. It put players into a grind mode, pushing past the reasonable levels of 70 for herblore, whatever the max agil obstacle lvl was, etc etc, simply to gain a prettier cape. This factor resulting in unprofitable skilling, not botting. I still remember I was in the top 200 for 99 fletching and only got it for the epic profits of alching mage longs, or having 55 herblore for supers and making so much money selling them. Now, you lose money doing any skill (except gathering) not due to botters, but due to the newfound grinding nature of players I believe came about due to skill capes.

So I say, the only thing that will damage pvp is implementing a similar grind desire, and I think that's nearly impossible as anyone who pks, does so for fun.
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#125
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seeing how i voted no, i don't. i knew it would be a massive influx of bots and scammers, and i was right.
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#126
i_trollz_u
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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.


General pking is probably less profitable than it was before, and a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.


I said pvp because that includes staking, which a lot of people seem to say has helped them make lots of money. I never said a pvp bot was probable, my point was that if it ever does happen those who are happy with the current game will immediately call for changes because bots will then be ruining the game for them.


Staking is also zero sum, only on a larger scale. One person's "make bank" is another person's "GF RS" or "cleaned start over". You can't consider it a profitable activity by any means, especially for maxed players who stake other max players in 50/50 fights.

#127
Ring_World
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Anyone who has a thought on my previous post at all (see below)? I think it's a relatively good compromise, I also see the limits imposed were too strict.


I agree the restricted trade wasn't perfect, but that could have been fixed in a different way.
Just to throw a ball here, what do you think about this: if we'd have restricted trade back, but with larger trade limits. (instead of 10k, say 50k or 100k)
It would give you a bit more freedom to give gifts etc while it would still hamper companies running bots for profit big time, as their trades useually involve a disbalance of millions.


The only thing I can't really think of a solution for is wildy, maybe someone has a creative idea?


Inb4 merch clans come back, stuck buying things at manipulated prices, artificial shortages, etc. Theres a lot wrong that didnt include gift giving.

See a thread in the Off topic forum about empty cities in China, "only in a command economy"

#128
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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.


General pking is less profitable than it was before because it's always zero-sum, one person's profit is another person's loss That coupled with a general lack of high value drops like statuettes makes it hard to even break even unless you're good at pking.

And a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.


They make scripts for chess that can beat actual players,

They make scripts in RTS games that can beat actual players.

Now for RS someone could make a script that could beat a real player in pvp.

#129
i_trollz_u
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I voted no because - surprise surprise- I don't pk, stake or merchant. I play to skill and earn my experience and money legitimately. The majority of people who voted yes were being affected by the trade restrictions and limits of the wilderness/pvp environments while the skillers and other players like myself were not. My livelihood before free trade was slayer and now it's a joke. All other raw resources in the game are the same way. Now that free trade/old wilderness is back, the situation is the opposite, the pvpers are thriving and the skillers are suffering.

I can guarantee, the minute someone is able to produce an efficient pvp bot everyone who is "happy with the current situation" will demand immediate changes.


General pking is less profitable than it was before because it's always zero-sum, one person's profit is another person's loss That coupled with a general lack of high value drops like statuettes makes it hard to even break even unless you're good at pking.

And a pvp bot is the one bot that will never be effective, because a human is always smarter and more powerful than a bot, so you can never write a script to be better at pking than an actual person. Aside from luring, pking didn't become more profitable, it just got more fun and isn't completely stupid like the old EP/DP system was.


They make scripts for chess that can beat actual players,

They make scripts in RTS games that can beat actual players.

Now for RS someone could make a script that could beat a real player in pvp.


For chess it's not a "script", it's called an engine. And finding the best move in a chess game relies upon a lot of principles, and there's only a set amount of moves so a computer that can basically calculate all possible moves and analyze all position isn't that crazy/cutting edge/unlikely as people think.

I don't think there are scrips that play RTS games either. There are AIM bots and stuff like that, but there's no actual program that basically plays a game of CoD and moves around and is actually successful, it's to complex for someone to make a "script" for.

RS pvp is a bit simpler, but the same concept applies. They can't write a bot to have a character move around the wilderness, know which places to avoid, attack all players that are judged to be having a decent risk, know how to stay alive when getting piled, when to put on the ahrims and cast a barrage, when to spec, ect. And even if you're judgement is perfect there's the luck factor in which even the best pkers who make perfect judgement calls will still get KOed by a lucky spec or something.There's too much grey area and too many things that require judgement involved in pking that's basically unlike boss hunting and all the other grindy activities in runescape. It's not just simple kill/bank either, there's too many unpredictable variables that a "script" would be impossible.

Maybe a runescape robot/engine or something, but that would be something on a new level completely and i think at the point where technolgoy reaches that level the rest of the game would already be completely ruined by bots and runescape can be officially considered dead anyway. I'm sure technology can achieve anything, but it's going to take a lot more than bot programmers have now to create an effective pking bot.

It also seems incredibly pointless to bot something like this, people mainly pk for fun not money, and unless you're luring pking isn't a good nor even guaranteed money maker. It's about as pointless as making a staking bot for boxing.

#130
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I voted for wildy/free trade back, and I don't regret my decision.

Having old wildy back = no more annoying revenants patrolling all over. And free trade means free gifts and donations |^_^|

Bots to me are simply an annoyance, they don't really hamper what I do on Runescape that much.

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#131
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I voted no because after seeing how jagex dealt with the problems of 26/76king, merch clans, and how they had already started going soft on bots, I really did not trust them when they said thay would be willing and able to deal with the issues, and now the bot problem is so much worse than I was expecting it to get.
With limited trade, a very large majority of bots were simply gaining exp/money for that player, and, though they were a problem, didn't have such a big impact, chins and green dragons were the main places for bots, and now even turoths are more crowded than green dragons were.
Now bots are a lot different, on top of these training bots, there are bots that gather money for RWTing, or to give to a main, and now they have taken over a lot of training spots that no one would have thought they could before, including frost dragons, aviansies, sorceress garden, etc.
and as a result have greatly damaged my main sources of income

so no, I do not regret my vote

don't get me wrong, I did miss some aspects of free trade:
pkers were a lot less irrtating than pkers when doing clues, they were a lot harder to find, when they saw clue gear they were less likely to attack, but if they did they were more likely to kill you, making clue hunting in wild a bit more exciting

however these positives don't even come close to outweight the negatives

I really don't like the way jagex has started to go in the last year or so, whether its Mod MMG (though I'm pretty sure he's been around much longer), the corporate investors or whoever

#132
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I voted 'yes', and now I regret it so much I can't sleep at night.

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#133
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They make scripts for chess that can beat actual players,

They make scripts in RTS games that can beat actual players.

Now for RS someone could make a script that could beat a real player in pvp.


It was said earlier, but...

Nah...that's not possible. Chess is finite - there's something on the order of 1000000000080 or higher potential moves for it. (Go is finite in that sense too but the number is so insanely high that figuring out the combinations is computationally intensive, and can't be done in this day and age).

RTS games work differently as there are multiple strategies that can be employed throughout the game - I'd encourage the curious person to look at the Berkeley Overmind. Still computationally intensive.

A PvP player in RS is trickier to counter. What are the possible armor/weapon combinations? Possible attack/defense/strength ranges? Possible HP? Remaining HP? Possible inventory layout? Possible familiar and its layout? Possible combat style? Possible plan to run for backup? Possible to run into a field of aggressive NPCs that could cause damage and/or loss of target? Possible to run into obstacles that could cause loss of target?

Ad. Infinitum.

*walks off*

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#134
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They make scripts for chess that can beat actual players,

They make scripts in RTS games that can beat actual players.

Now for RS someone could make a script that could beat a real player in pvp.


It was said earlier, but...

Nah...that's not possible. Chess is finite - there's something on the order of 1000000000080 or higher potential moves for it. (Go is finite in that sense too but the number is so insanely high that figuring out the combinations is computationally intensive, and can't be done in this day and age).

RTS games work differently as there are multiple strategies that can be employed throughout the game - I'd encourage the curious person to look at the Berkeley Overmind. Still computationally intensive.

A PvP player in RS is trickier to counter. What are the possible armor/weapon combinations? Possible attack/defense/strength ranges? Possible HP? Remaining HP? Possible inventory layout? Possible familiar and its layout? Possible combat style? Possible plan to run for backup? Possible to run into a field of aggressive NPCs that could cause damage and/or loss of target? Possible to run into obstacles that could cause loss of target?

Ad. Infinitum.

*walks off*


Most of what you say is true, but there are chess programs that rival Grandmasters, and i can confirm most of the high level chess programs are virtually impossible for normal players to beat (USCF rating<2000 would probably be unable to beat it). While chess is finite, most of all those "potential moves" are practically useless and will basically hurt you in a chess game, there are only a small fraction of those which are playable moves in a given position, which is what makes it possible to make chess engines to think like a human.

#135
Makoto_the_Phoenix
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They make scripts for chess that can beat actual players,

They make scripts in RTS games that can beat actual players.

Now for RS someone could make a script that could beat a real player in pvp.


It was said earlier, but...

Nah...that's not possible. Chess is finite - there's something on the order of 1000000000080 or higher potential moves for it. (Go is finite in that sense too but the number is so insanely high that figuring out the combinations is computationally intensive, and can't be done in this day and age).

RTS games work differently as there are multiple strategies that can be employed throughout the game - I'd encourage the curious person to look at the Berkeley Overmind. Still computationally intensive.

A PvP player in RS is trickier to counter. What are the possible armor/weapon combinations? Possible attack/defense/strength ranges? Possible HP? Remaining HP? Possible inventory layout? Possible familiar and its layout? Possible combat style? Possible plan to run for backup? Possible to run into a field of aggressive NPCs that could cause damage and/or loss of target? Possible to run into obstacles that could cause loss of target?

Ad. Infinitum.

*walks off*


Most of what you say is true, but there are chess programs that rival Grandmasters, and i can confirm most of the high level chess programs are virtually impossible for normal players to beat (USCF rating<2000 would probably be unable to beat it). While chess is finite, most of all those "potential moves" are practically useless and will basically hurt you in a chess game, there are only a small fraction of those which are playable moves in a given position, which is what makes it possible to make chess engines to think like a human.


Exactly right. Sorry if it seemed ambiguous, but I was well aware that there are chess engines that can beat Grandmasters (Deep Blue).

My point is, though, RS has too many variables to confine it to a reasonably calculable value that could be automated. Not just that, but one doesn't know anything of the "state" of the other player (remaining inventory, potions, extra weapons, etc), whereas chess engines and RTS engines do and potentially could, respectively.

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#136
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They make scripts for chess that can beat actual players,

They make scripts in RTS games that can beat actual players.

Now for RS someone could make a script that could beat a real player in pvp.


It was said earlier, but...

Nah...that's not possible. Chess is finite - there's something on the order of 1000000000080 or higher potential moves for it. (Go is finite in that sense too but the number is so insanely high that figuring out the combinations is computationally intensive, and can't be done in this day and age).

RTS games work differently as there are multiple strategies that can be employed throughout the game - I'd encourage the curious person to look at the Berkeley Overmind. Still computationally intensive.

A PvP player in RS is trickier to counter. What are the possible armor/weapon combinations? Possible attack/defense/strength ranges? Possible HP? Remaining HP? Possible inventory layout? Possible familiar and its layout? Possible combat style? Possible plan to run for backup? Possible to run into a field of aggressive NPCs that could cause damage and/or loss of target? Possible to run into obstacles that could cause loss of target?

Ad. Infinitum.

*walks off*


Most of what you say is true, but there are chess programs that rival Grandmasters, and i can confirm most of the high level chess programs are virtually impossible for normal players to beat (USCF rating<2000 would probably be unable to beat it). While chess is finite, most of all those "potential moves" are practically useless and will basically hurt you in a chess game, there are only a small fraction of those which are playable moves in a given position, which is what makes it possible to make chess engines to think like a human.


Exactly right. Sorry if it seemed ambiguous, but I was well aware that there are chess engines that can beat Grandmasters (Deep Blue).

My point is, though, RS has too many variables to confine it to a reasonably calculable value that could be automated. Not just that, but one doesn't know anything of the "state" of the other player (remaining inventory, potions, extra weapons, etc), whereas chess engines and RTS engines do and potentially could, respectively.


Lets name some variables

Location. Path system similar to what revs got but more finite and safe of course

Teleblocked. Act more cautiously if teleblocked, and be ready to run if less then 20% of food remains.

Specs. Two strategies, one is hit hard at the start, two is hit hard when they are weak.

Weapons. Maybe you use a CR normally and claws/AGS for spec. Weapon switching for spec wouldnt be hard if it has a set strategy to follow.

Tag teamed. If a new player targets you then teleport out, or switch to teleblocked mode.

Healing. Would work on percentages and damage in a given second. If you got super speced and dropped from 800 to 12 spam heals are more important then damage. If you are in a standard duel go from 800 to 560 to 434 to 320, eat only at a certain percent.

***A super advanced bot may also be able to see the clothes your oponent has on and check stats to calculate their max hit***

Poted stats. Repot above a certain percentage.

Hybriding. Bot would need to know what armor the opponent is wearing and be able to calculate the stats of it, if above a certain percent then hit with a certain attack style, also switch styles if frozen. Situationally of course to what the armor/weapon of the oponent.

***would need to be super advanced to do this without fail***

Loot collection. Grab the most valuable items and teleport or run right away if under attack. also needs ot know to drop food or potions if there isnt room. Needs to be able to heal well as well incase a player rushes after a kill.



There is only a finite amount of moves to make in pvp. Very specific weapons and armors in runescape too (unlike a game like WoW where theres 1000's of models and dozens of attacks). For someone to make a bot like this without fail wouldn't be easy but its more then possible.

#137
MightyMuddy
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I voted yes, and although I don't think my vote really counted for anything I regret it. I hate the bots and I can only see it getting worse. I've lost my once decent cash pile and now I can't even make a decent profit p/h at frost dragons. After all they hype of free trade I've realised I haven't gained anything. Really I've just lost out on my main source of money.

#138
Unb34t4bl3
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I voted yes, but like others I realized that was the only possible outcome. I knew what was coming. And I truly believe that was the beginning of the end. There was a lot of crap in the GE era with item manipulation, but two lines of basic code could have fixed that. Staking? You could have earned the right to stake through a good account reputation. Again, there were problems in the GE era, but had they at least tried to fix them, it would have kept the garbage at bay.

Now every world I log in to the GE I see scammers trying to double money, trust game, dice, flower, and etc (or the 50 spam bots in every f2p world). I don't care that it's easy to avoid, but it makes RS look really bad. Like... really bad. I can't see how anyone new over the age of 12 would want to start playing RS now. (And if they do they'll probably just starting botting)

And for those talking about PK bots, stop being ridiculous. Modern games with real-time action don't even have the AI yet to constantly defeat a human unless the AI has advantage. In fact, modern AI still kind of sucks. Botting PvE doesn't exactly require good AI. I remember auto-catchers from back in RS1... so there are likely bots that aid a player, but there are no full-fledged do it for you bots.
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#139
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Ring_World - I'll be making my reply to you in PM, as it's only tangentially related to the topic at hand.

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...Alright, the Elf City update lured me back to RS over a year ago.


#140
Ring_World
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Ring_World

    Dragon Slayer

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Ring_World - I'll be making my reply to you in PM, as it's only tangentially related to the topic at hand.


kk sorry for the off topic also my post might be irrelevant since I dont know how bots work and what they are logistically capable of.

Ontopic: As previous posts have said Jagex was going to do this either way. I have decided I have made a big enough deal about why I feel free trade is better, when ultimately none of what we discuss here matters it just comes down to what Jagex feels like doing




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