Rule-breaking and the role of a fansite

[langer]

For the last several years and more recently with the return of free trade, players breaking rules (RWT, Scamming, Auto typing, Botting...etc) has become a normal sight in RS and most of the actors of the game (Jagex along with their customers) have made it quite clear through their actions (or lack of...) that this situation is acceptable and unworthy of harsh punishment.

 

Over the last months, countless threads about bots were created by exasperated players and lately have been locked on the grounds that an "obscure" sticky in the rants section is quite enough to deal with this "minor" issue has some posters would put it.

 

With this trend in bot-apologists and gold-farming apologists in our community, we find ourselves looking inward and asking ourselves: this is what this game has become, what now?

 

What now indeed! Given the lack of effort to enforce the rules by Jagex. Given the state of mind of the community towards taking short cuts to access the "fun" game. Given the state of mind of TIF's administration concerning bot whinners, here's what I'm aksing the community today:

 

- Should Tip.it start supplying guides to botting, gold-farming and how to sell/buy gold online, provide autotypers for merchant in W1/W2?

 

To bring back some of the arguments for eliminating the rules for those of you who are unaware:

- Bots were always there and will always be there (why not make it so everyone gets access to them more easily?)

- Players should not feel that their achievements are devalued by what other players are doing (be it botting or RWTing) because this is after all a game and not a chore

- A fansite should help players achieve their goals in everyway possible, especially when the game creators don't enforce their outdated rules...

 

Obviously, these changes would mean that Tip.it renounces its special platinum or gold status or whatever Jagex are calling "safe fansites" and this is obviously not an option.

 

Let's say we go hypothetical from now on...

- Should Jagex remove their rules?

- Should Tip.it be more lenient on rule-breaking?

[Low C]

No.

 

When Jagex changes their stance i'm sure tip.it will follow suite.

[K4ylan]

No.

[langer]

No.

 

When Jagex changes their stance i'm sure tip.it will follow suite.

 

You mean officially?

[Pinata]

I'll say no. To many naive people can somehow manage to download a keylogger which can be a lot more dangerous then just stealing rs accounts.

[Low C]

No.

 

When Jagex changes their stance i'm sure tip.it will follow suite.

 

You mean officially?

 

Jagex changing their stance would be allowing Micro-transactions and offering no punishment for botting or rwt. They are still against this but their current stance from what i can tell is slap on the wrist for the first so many offences so money is still generated by rule-breakers.

 

Jagex is at the stage where they cannot stop rwt or botting but they still discourage it for reasons such as credit card fraud, account security, and public image. I'm sure they knew it would get to this point, but the extra income from the free-trade surge of players is probably enough to justify it for them as a business.

 

My 2 cents.

[tripsis]

Just because so many people are doing it doesn't mean we should stoop that low. Yes it does seem like Jagex doesn't care as much as they used to, but that doesn't mean that the players don't care. There's a reason people complain about bots and RWT, etc. - because they don't like it. Supplying botting guides, etc. would be saying we approve of those actions. But most people in this community don't approve of it (especially staff) so there's no reason to start supporting those things.

 

I think a more realistic topic would be: since Jagex doesn't seem to care, should Tip.It not care? Meaning we wouldn't promote the activities by providing guides and information but we'd turn a blind eye to people who admit to breaking the rules.

 

(not saying I agree to disagree with this, but I think that's a more realistic discussion)

 

EDIT: And for the record, the sticky wasn't created because we think it's a minor issue that should be tucked away. It was created because tens of botting threads were posted each month, all essentially saying the same thing and we got countless complaints. The majority of the community (or majority of those who chose to voice their opinion) wanted a sticky.

[langer]

 

EDIT: And for the record, the sticky wasn't created because we think it's a minor issue that should be tucked away. It was created because tens of botting threads were posted each month, all essentially saying the same thing and we got countless complaints. The majority of the community (or majority of those who chose to voice their opinion) wanted a sticky.

 

I wasn't implying that Tip.it thinks it's a minor issue. I said some posters are saying botting is a minor issue. I know why the thread was created, it's like putting a bandaid over a shotgun wound. It's not a solution to the real problem (botting), it's a solution to the problem of people being sick of rants over botting. People are sick of botting rants because there are too many.... there are too many because botting is a widespread problem... Since Tip.it cannot solve the botting problem, they are solving the only problem they can and this leads to situation where no pressure is put on Jagex to solve the problem. By cramming all the botting rants in one sticky, Tip.it is effectively reducing discussion of botting weither they like it or not.

 

Concerning your other points in discussing a change of policy, does Jagex and Tip.it have talks concerning the state of the game? Maybe we need a poll to see who would like a change in policy and who approve or disaprove of botting? . I'm playing devil's advocate here by the way.

[Kimberly]

I think it's helping the pressure on Jagex, if anything, since despite what we do to organize things a bit better botting is still one of the most heated topics on the forums and gets mentioned nearly once every thread throughout the runescape section. It is something too vast to ignore, which is why many users are critical of the social media stunts they are pulling with this so-called 'Bot Busting'. These higher degrees of discussion that are able to exist because of these organization efforts helps the information spread far more effectively, and from it it spreads to other forums--even the official ones. I think there is no lack of pressure from the community. It is the income, in the end, that will hurt them the most in terms of sent messages...and as some users have repeatedly stated, I don't think anyone is at the point where they're willing to cancel their membership in protest.

[tripsis]

Concerning your other points in discussing a change of policy, does Jagex and Tip.it have talks concerning the state of the game? Maybe we need a poll to see who would like a change in policy and who approve or disaprove of botting? . I'm playing devil's advocate here by the way.

Not really. We do sometimes send them links to interesting/controversial topics that are posted here and they take a look. If it's of interest to enough people, I might be able to try to get an interview set up.

[Lose No Hope]

Concerning your other points in discussing a change of policy, does Jagex and Tip.it have talks concerning the state of the game? Maybe we need a poll to see who would like a change in policy and who approve or disaprove of botting? . I'm playing devil's advocate here by the way.

It took Jagex a few weeks to reply back to an email, so I doubt they have many talks.

 

They aren't effectively getting rid of bots and they know that most players are upset with the mass number of bots. Right now whatever they do isn't going to make that much of a difference.

 

edit: looks like Tripsis answered the first part.

[langer]

Concerning your other points in discussing a change of policy, does Jagex and Tip.it have talks concerning the state of the game? Maybe we need a poll to see who would like a change in policy and who approve or disaprove of botting? . I'm playing devil's advocate here by the way.

Not really. We do sometimes send them links to interesting/controversial topics that are posted here and they take a look. If it's of interest to enough people, I might be able to try to get an interview set up.

 

I'd be very interested in an interview with that topic.

 

@ Ring world

 

Exactly 43 threads! The main point is: should we ignore botting? One of the reason why botting is discussed that much is probably because new updates are not up to par with the players' interest. Great updates and new (nice) training methods will divert the attention of players to the state of the game enough to slow down the flow of complaints. Lackluster updates mean people go back to their previous training grounds only to find them filled with bots, hence the complaining.

[Cheat]

The reason bot whining threads are locked is because the topics are incredibly repetitive adding little to discussions that have already been made - not because we all secretely bot and don't want to be told how bad we are!

[Master_Smither]

I do agree that the sticky is obscure and that many threads are being locked because the sticky addresses the point of the thread. However, if fansites were to begin to endorse bots, that would be the end of the game itself. It would signify that bots have indeed become a major enough part of the game, that it is accepted by the majority of the community. In part, I'd love all the threads to be visible and whenever JaGex might look, be able to see how much the problem real is addressed, but that would just lead to pointless topics spamming the boards.

 

Jagex must realize it's a major problem, but they're helpless. They cannot investigate and ban at a fast enough rate to surpass the influx of new bots. They used to ban macros every two weeks and that was sufficient. However, that is no where near anymore. The bots now out number real players at a lot of places in RuneScape and they seem to never end.

[essiw]

So you say that because there are to many bots we should give everyone the information how to bot to get even more bots? That is like making a website how to break into a house because there are already to many people doing that.

The main problem about bots is not that they skill easier then you do, the problem is that they screw up the economy (dbones, essence etc. and ofc. the value of golden coins) and when people want to do something like mining (at f2p), or frost dragons (p2p) they have to compete against 5-20 bots. This takes away the fun for not botters.

 

Creating more bots does not solve the problem that there are to much bots, as simple as that.

[BBK]

The tip it community actually gives me hope that not all is lost in rs, the day they advocate botting/rwting this forum would fill up with exactly the kind of rs players this board gives me a break from, the 'umad scrub lolzors' ethug kiddies would storm this board in force and all the decent people would end up moving to a different community, at least at the moment theres proof that there are still good rs players left amongst all the cheating. This board can be a bit strict at times, like how we can now swear on runescape but language isn't tolerated here for example but its for the best imo

[Ts_Stormrage]

Tip.it is one of the few well 'defended' human-only communities that exist in an all zombie-fied world...

 

Whichever way you look at it, though, Jagex have accepted that there are people cheating out there, and that there always will be... They also said that that would not give them pause in fighting these same cheaters, but whatever they are doing, to us it feels like there is less and less of an impact, and new solutions need to be thought of...

[strilmus]

So we're okay with this thread? Are we just going to ignore it a day or so after it's created and go back to what we were doing?

 

Honestly, I don't think we should be expected to support the weight of the mistakes that everybody else made. Hell, we need to make the push to solve the problem instead of shoving it under the rug. If our Platinum status means anything at all, we should be able to talk to Jagex on a somewhat...personal level. If it doesn't mean anything at all and we have no means of establishing regular contact, then the whole relationship is meaningless, and we shouldn't even bother to continue dealing with them if they want to treat us like a toy that is expected to hold up to their standards, yet is unable to discuss matters that are of concern to everybody.

 

And this is the point where I derail this thread.

 

[spoiler=so, this is the part where you ignore me if you don't like reading exposition]

Jagex? Powerless? It is only because they put themselves in a position without power.

 

There are several fundamental things that keep bots in business.

 

Firstly, there's the whole browser game thing. That's always gonna leave their doors open. They COULD change it but it wouldn't be part of their business plan, so, yeah.

 

Next up, we have the hackneyed game mechanics which both provide a reason to bot (a ridiculous amount of time spent earning your way towards content which isn't WORTH the amount of time you spend getting there) and the entire system which the game's economy is based on, in which the most valued items are supplies which become instantly worthless once they are made into the things that should have been useful, the gear which becomes useful after the process of rendering supplies useless is complete, and the dumb trinkets and baubles that you buy with the scads of money you get from that whole process that you don't have any use for after it all.

 

More on that in a bit.

 

And finally, we have the community, involving both the players, and the developers. The players don't respect the developers because the developers don't respect the players. And they're both going about it the wrong way. Here we have the child which does not get the care it needs and decides to just take whatever it wants. Here we have the parent who does not know how to care for the child, and treats them disrespectfully because the child does not behave. The developers do not give their players the content they "need" (in the sense that for their money they should be provided for in terms of entertainment) most of the time, and teach them all the wrong things because all the things that they do happen to like are entirely arbitrary compared to what is deemed necessary to obtain them. The player, seeing that the goal does not fit any rhyme or reason with the journey, sees that they should forge their own path to the goods regardless of what the parent says, because the parent's been wrong many times and is not really the pinnacle of good judgment when it comes to these situations. However, neither is the player, but at least they know what they want and know how to get there the "better" way.

 

And therefore a good lot of them consider cheating to be viable, acceptable, perhaps even superior to any other method, as those methods have been shown to be substantially flawed in of themselves.

 

MEGA DISCLAIMER:

 

In no way am I saying that players are in fact actually all whiny children, although I'll allow you to indulge in that thought right now if you particularly enjoy it.

 

...

 

Okay. You done? I still stand by my other statement that Jagex makes for some incompetent parents though, because they'll never actually read this, or if they do, we'll get a good laugh out of it if they decide to handle it immaturely.

 

Anyway, the players are put in the role of the audience, or the passengers. They cannot directly control what happens to them. They can, however, react to it. The developer, based on those reactions, is supposed to figure out how to guide the players to new ideas and experiences that would be most beneficial to the audience. The player grows depending on what they are shown. The developer grows depending on how they change their output based on the reactions. And all have failed in that regard. Constructively, I mean. To learn how to cheat and ignore the consequences, or to deal with cheating by putting it off and ignoring the consequences, are some kind of growth, but hell if that makes anything actually better.

 

So, the two components, the people, and the environment, are intertwined. And they form the game. The game is fundamentally flawed.

 

On the surface everything appears to be fine, or fine enough, to the developers, and the players. A lot of the stuff I write sinks to the depths of the data grinder, so that either means that I'm so wrong that nobody's going to bother replying (but this is the INTERNET so that can't be true) or that they simply don't care. And perhaps that is fine if you want things to stay the same.

 

But if they do, the game will never give you what you really want.

 

 

I've been over this many times, so I'm gonna summarize it now.

 

CHANGE THE GAME TO BE THE GAME WE ALL WANT. CHANGE IT DAMN YOU.

 

I'm not talking about just your average slap an update on it or remake the tutorial or undo the removal of free trade (although somewhat essential to the process, not the entire fix) or even cheat, or add cosmetic items to farm the rest of the money out of the playerbase or create "emergent gameplay" with clans, or make an area with tents in it that allows you to parade around with a customized flag up your butt showing how insignificant the whole charade is.

 

I'm talking Runescape 3.

 

(I'm going to post more later, but for now feel free to rail against my proposal until I wake up and am at an operational state to use a computer.)

[Ts_Stormrage]

... and new solutions need to be thought of...

Did some digging, and I was talking about solutions such as this one in my article from early this year...

[GuidesForScapers]

So if enough people punch babies, and the authorities struggle to control this baby-punch-fest, we should give up and legalise it?

[Omali]

So if enough people punch babies, and the authorities struggle to control this baby-punch-fest, we should give up and legalise it?

 

Legalize baby punching. Tax and regulate it. Punch babies erry day.

[The Observer]

EDIT: And for the record, the sticky wasn't created because we think it's a minor issue that should be tucked away. It was created because tens of botting threads were posted each month, all essentially saying the same thing and we got countless complaints. The majority of the community (or majority of those who chose to voice their opinion) wanted a sticky.

 

Actually, I voted for that option because I thought it was going to be a "mega thread", not a sticky. Would've been better to say "have a pinned topic" instead. Pinned topics tend to be overlooked, so it's better to have a mega topic for it.

[Sy_Accursed]

EDIT: And for the record, the sticky wasn't created because we think it's a minor issue that should be tucked away. It was created because tens of botting threads were posted each month, all essentially saying the same thing and we got countless complaints. The majority of the community (or majority of those who chose to voice their opinion) wanted a sticky.

 

Actually, I voted for that option because I thought it was going to be a "mega thread", not a sticky. Would've been better to say "have a pinned topic" instead. Pinned topics tend to be overlooked, so it's better to have a mega topic for it.

 

How does a "mega topic" differ from a sticky?

It's just a sticky that isn't stickied but the same rule is applied of grouping all of that topic into 1 thread.

[The Observer]

EDIT: And for the record, the sticky wasn't created because we think it's a minor issue that should be tucked away. It was created because tens of botting threads were posted each month, all essentially saying the same thing and we got countless complaints. The majority of the community (or majority of those who chose to voice their opinion) wanted a sticky.

 

Actually, I voted for that option because I thought it was going to be a "mega thread", not a sticky. Would've been better to say "have a pinned topic" instead. Pinned topics tend to be overlooked, so it's better to have a mega topic for it.

 

How does a "mega topic" differ from a sticky?

It's just a sticky that isn't stickied but the same rule is applied of grouping all of that topic into 1 thread.

 

Pinned topics tend to be overlooked, and making a brand new pinned topic removes all of the discussion that was already held. Could merge a few topics instead.

 

Personally I was in favour of having several topics since bots can touch a wide variety of issues, and not just one centralised one.

 

As for rule breaking, if they don't have rules on it, then they pretty much condone rule breaking. It's not like it'll be very useful anyway considering it's a very public forum, and it just takes a few clicks for a Jagex Mod to see it anyway.

[SwreeTak]

To accept the many bots in Runescape and argument for the removal of the rules that says that bots are not to be used in the game would not make the game any better. I can understand your arguments and why you think this might be a good idea. But really, if Jagex was to let everyone use bots it would have huge consequences.

 

There are two main reasons to this opinion of mine:

1. It would not make the game more fair, but instead more unfair. This since it would still be those most experienced with bots and those who can pay for the best botting programs (for it would surely be a market for this if botting was to be legal in Runescape) would also be the one that would get the most money and most level-ups.

2. The main reason to why I am against bot is that it makes the game too easy. And if something is too easy, it isn't fun anymore. If bots were to become legal it would make the game provide no challenge anymore. You could simply turn on your computer, start Runescape, run your botting program, wait and do something completely else, and without having put in more effort than so get any level or any amount of money you wanted. This is to destroy what the game is much about: accepting the challenge of skilling or moneymaking. A lot of players play this game just because of that they find it challenging, and because of that they find it fun to complete the goals they set for themselves (without the helps of bots!). The game is built so that you can, and should, enjoy it the most without bots. Or why do we else have skill- and milestone-capes?

 

To argue for a legalization of botting by saying that "Bots were always there and will always be there" is just a way to say that just because people will keep doing bad things, we shouldn't try to stop them from doing so. And though I can agree with you on that some tasks in the game are repetitive, they can't be called a chore. If you see skilling/moneymaking/whatever in this game as a chore, you should re-think about the reasons why you play this game.

 

You also write that "A fansite should help players achieve their goals in everyway possible...". Tip.It is one of the biggest fansites there is for Runescape, and we have lots of guides and tips on here. But we won't post botting guides here. It's against the rules, and as stated by previous posters, the majority of players are also against botting overall.

 

Finally, I have to say that I agree with you about one thing: Jagex have started slacking in the bot-banning. But never that this would be reason enough for us to accept the bots in Runescape. No, we need to do the opposite: To protest and make our voices heard so that Jagex knows that they need to take care of the botting problem that we have in this game.