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Tip.It Times - 3rd July 2011


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#21
Dormado
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@Hamtaro

Again, loyalty can be measured from a set point in time, how else do you propose of measuring it?

I do know about the "summer crash" (even though i don't use the exact term), however it doesn't really matter." Oh no, i can only play during the summer so ill keep my subscribtion for only those three months (but still expect to be held as loyal as those who have been paying all the time)".

Do you think they should be able to get loyalty rewards with such "loyalty"? Of course now we go into the case of defining what exactly is "loyalty", and clearly JaGEx is stating that it's your membership that counts, they imply that the more we pay them consecutively, the more loyal we are. Not that i exactly agree with this, but it does have reasoning.

And then you jump to bots...

Listen, it's evident that bots are the plague of this game, however JaGEx has lost their will to combat them. Most of modern bots are so blatant catching them would require a simple testing program. They care for the money in this case, and this is not good, not something that should be allowed to happen. Yet, again, it's their game, their choice, ill keep on playing because bots dont really affect me that much (learned to cope).

I do agree that they should start doing the unfinished questlines, fix content etc. etc. (there's plenty of good things they can do), however most of the things you mentioned are allready being made.

-----------
You also state that the rewards are next to useless? Allright, lets put auras, and their useful effects aside for now.

Titles, costumes and emotes are not useless. How come? Well many people like to look unique, have many diffirent emotes to show off. cosmetic rewards are very good to enlighten the gameplay.

Also, have you heard of a thing that's called catering to various classes? The clans sure got an overhaul this year, many new weapons come out each year, and yet when an update comes out that suits the roleplaying comunity in so many ways...Ranting begins.

(There was supposed to be another paragraph here, but I forgot what I was going to say.)


@jrhairychest

Weird, your quotes aren't quoting me, but have my name on it...
The clock is ticking, and your time is running out, mortals.

#22
Crocefisso
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Also, have you heard of a thing that's called catering to various classes? The clans sure got an overhaul this year, many new weapons come out each year, and yet when an update comes out that suits the roleplaying comunity in so many ways...Ranting begins.


Clans getting an overhaul is a genuinely good update, and I wrote an article in favour of that in the Times sometime back in April. It's called "The Clan Camp" (boring name, I know) in case you wanna check it out. It was a solid update that the entire community can benefit from.

But that's pretty much the only change of note in my books. All the new weapons and so on are fine, but they are commonplace and do not warrant either praise or derision in my mind.

I don't personally think catering to the roleplaying community is going to do Jagex much good. The roleplaying community consists of like 7 people. Surely adding some innovation to cater to the Stories community from RSOF - which is, by the way, massive - would be far more welcome; e.g. the ability to get published in RS if you write a good enough, complete story. That's something I heard a few times back when I was there, and as far as originality goes it's a far less lazy update than a loyalty scheme.


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#23
Guest_jrhairychest_
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@jrhairychest

Weird, your quotes aren't quoting me, but have my name on it...

Apologies and fixed :thumbup:

#24
Rhonda
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Would someone explain which RuneScape site the second article refers to with:

"When logging into the RuneScape site (not the game itself), the link should begin with "https:", not "http:"."
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#25
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Large Quotes

Alright, I'll await that article. Be sure to submit it as a Letter to the Editor as opposed to a guest article because it's replying directly to an article.

The set point in time is fine and good, but the thing is actual loyalty can't just me measured from a set point in time. If they were rewarding for actual loyalty, I would have 917k more loyalty reward points than what I was given this week. They aren't rewarding for loyalty at all, or I would have those points. From what I pulled out of your post, you're assuming that everyone is in a similar situation to players like us with perpetual membership. That's not the case at all...

I'm assuming you're familiar with what is known as the "summer crash" when many dump their P2P items before going F2P for 9 months at the end of summer. This obviously signifies that a good portion of players are only subscribed during the summer months when they are available to play. These three consecutive months will earn a dismal 8,500 points per year because according to Jagex, "Should you leave it for over 30 days, you will go right back to the start." If anyone wants to take advantage of these rewards and doesn't want to wait 10 years, they have to stay subscribed for 9 inactive months where they spend $45+ to do absolutely nothing with it. This also goes along with how Jagex runs bonus XP weekends. Instead of hosting ones during December and July when most are available to play, they host them in March and September to make people pay 30 days of membership for 3 days. Or how about Christmas of 2006 and 2010 when they had members only rewards? Jagex is essentially trying to get you to pay for not playing. From a business standpoint, it's brilliant, but from a PR standpoint, it's absolutely terrible.

It's shady marketing at best and I don't approve of it at all. Having more money doesn't mean a whole lot anyway. I would say that Jagex could use the money to hire more people to ban bots, but with this rollback BS, they probably just want $ from the bots too. Having more money here isn't improving the game - it's making it worse (inb4bots lower prices). The P2P game should be inherently entertaining enough in and of itself to draw members to its content. Not some points 12 days out of the year, bonus xp 6 days out of the year, and holiday events 4 days out of the year. This isn't pay-to-play anymore. It's pay-for-365-days-and-play-for-a-third-of-that. Sounds legit.

Instead of wasting dev time on garbage like this for artificially inflated membership numbers like this, they could be working on the Eastern Lands, the ROTM quest line, or even Prifddinas, which we have been waiting over 5 years for. This would actually improve the game instead of giving someone the ability to use a a hand shake emote (which doesn't even look like a hand shake...) or a barely useful aura (and how could I forget the extremely useful recolors and outfits + the totally unannoying titles).

RuneScape will never be looked upon as a respectable game by video game critics or anyone else if they continue crap like this. Just look what happened with Team Fortress 2 - it was an extremely popular game amongst the PC gamers until Valve started selling hats in the game (for real cash), which didn't quite collapse their player base, but certainly diminished it enough to have them release it for free on Steam. Strategies like this have failed in the past. They will certainly generate much temporary revenue, but will ultimately decline due to a lack of continuous substantial content (which is what I'm subbed for). If Jagex doesn't stop with these semi-microtransactions, so too will the enjoyment of the players fall into a dismal abyss of non existence.

@strilmus
Bungie is done with Halo other than tracking stats after the 7th of July (Bungie Day). That is a goodbye gift to their fans, not some quick marketing gimmick.


If you only subscribe 3 out of 12 months, that doesn't scream "I'm a loyal costumer".
I also fail to see how this MLP relates to content being developed, because AFAIK, they have more than 1 person working on the game.

That is all.

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#26
Aceethan
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The first article was very biased towards the side of "Jagex = bad guys". I'm not saying that Jagex never messes up, but I think some of the new stuff is pretty cool and even if their blatant push towards membership is a little annoying, it is actually a little refreshing to see them being straight up with us. We all know Jagex wants memberships/money and this is simply a new approach: right in your face, play Runescape and give us some cash.

The security article was very informative and well organized and the interview was a nice read with a guy that seemed level headed and cool.

#27
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While there may be a discussion to have over whether or not Jagex is starting to push commercial aims over gameplay, the first article does seem to be too extreme in it's views to feel very credible.

I think It tries to imply that there aren't any updates which ad depth to the game anymore, implying that things that the loyalty update have replaced them - which I'd strongly disagree with, there's all sorts of fun and interesting updates coming into the game still.

There are also seems to be a vibe that people are "forced" to get ongoing membership to get superficial rewards. Which doesn't make sense to me. If they're superficial no-one is forced to get them, they're just a bit of a bonus for those people who do want to pay the continual membership.

#28
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I agree with the article.
You can say he was harsh, but that can only be good. I'm fed up with certain updates which add nothing to our experience.
Acheon

#29
loqk
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Crocefisso , brilliantly written article thanks for expressing the opinion we share so eloquently.

Hamtaro's article, while sound advice, is now out of date. unless runescape allows the spamming of incorrect passwords like the banks used to, then a strong password is not worth the time cost to the average user. keyloggers simply make strong passwords as easy to find as weak ones. and, if you can't spam the passwords, a weak password is almost as strong as a strong password.
http://research.micr...AndNoThanks.pdf

#30
Dr_Vermin
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Jagex seems to have over-active community-management and marketing departments. In small doses their input might improve the game, but they seem to be doing too much, too fast. It may perhaps be a sense of obligation on their part to do something with the time they're being paid for, even if it doesn't actually improve anything.

That's complete speculation on my part though, I know less than nothing about how Jagex works.

With regards to the MLP, it's the first update that's really depressed me. If Jagex keeps up with stunts like this I think I'll end my membership.

#31
Crocefisso
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I think It tries to imply that there aren't any updates which ad depth to the game anymore, implying that things that the loyalty update have replaced them - which I'd strongly disagree with, there's all sorts of fun and interesting updates coming into the game still.


Apologies if that is what I implied. I do not think that at all - as previously mentioned on the thread, I wrote a very positive article on the clan camp update back in April -, but I do feel that Jagex is doing more and more of these silly little tricks in order to try and increase membership, and it's a pattern I'd rather they stopped before it gets out of hand. I am also very interested in this upcoming clan citadels update, and I've high hopes for Jagex in this sense. It's just unfortunate that they couple good updates with such transparent nonsense tricks as the MLP.


"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau


#32
Weekdiertje
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Can anyone pm me with the teaser for suomi's interview? Or post it here? I can't seem to find the tip it times from 1 juli 2011, maybe it's because i live in a different country?
Please, i would love to read it :D
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#33
Kaida23
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Can anyone pm me with the teaser for suomi's interview? Or post it here? I can't seem to find the tip it times from 1 juli 2011, maybe it's because i live in a different country?
Please, i would love to read it :D

I've PM'd you a copy of the teaser.

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#34
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Ugh! Give the loyalty program a break. It released some cool stuff and I'm pretty sure we all liked something from it, and no it was not RWT. I like this thing. Stop whining.

I'm not an efficienado.


#35
siredwrdross
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@Crocefisso

MLP only seems bad if one expects much from it. That's why the logic of your article doesn't make too much sense. If JaGex is trying to "force" f2pers into p2p, then they would have to be dangling a VERY large worm on a hook with the MLP. But, as it is, these rewards are just small bonuses for playing the members game consistently. As you yourself said, you don't expect people to fall for it. If that's the case, then there's no reason to be upset with JaGex.

Nor is this a poorly disguised rehash of old content. Certainly emotes and costumes are (and I strongly doubt that anyone is particular excited about those: I doubt that any poor f2per will be "forced" into member's just to make their character ROFL), but with Auras, JaGex has introduced an entirely new sort of equippable item. Again, it's not insanely powerful (for good reason), but it is entirely novel. Furthermore, this concept has considerable room for expansion.

On the whole, I think this is a well-balanced, sensible update, and I hope it pays off for JaGex. In my mind, the more the company prospers, the better off the players will be in the long run.

Thanks for taking the time to write for the Times. Though I don't agree with your article, I'm always appreciative of those who take the time and thought to put a few words down.

Cheers!
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#36
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@Hamtaro

Again, loyalty can be measured from a set point in time, how else do you propose of measuring it?

I do know about the "summer crash" (even though i don't use the exact term), however it doesn't really matter." Oh no, i can only play during the summer so ill keep my subscribtion for only those three months (but still expect to be held as loyal as those who have been paying all the time)".

Do you think they should be able to get loyalty rewards with such "loyalty"? Of course now we go into the case of defining what exactly is "loyalty", and clearly JaGEx is stating that it's your membership that counts, they imply that the more we pay them consecutively, the more loyal we are. Not that i exactly agree with this, but it does have reasoning.

And then you jump to bots...

Listen, it's evident that bots are the plague of this game, however JaGEx has lost their will to combat them. Most of modern bots are so blatant catching them would require a simple testing program. They care for the money in this case, and this is not good, not something that should be allowed to happen. Yet, again, it's their game, their choice, ill keep on playing because bots dont really affect me that much (learned to cope).

I do agree that they should start doing the unfinished questlines, fix content etc. etc. (there's plenty of good things they can do), however most of the things you mentioned are allready being made.

-----------
You also state that the rewards are next to useless? Allright, lets put auras, and their useful effects aside for now.

Titles, costumes and emotes are not useless. How come? Well many people like to look unique, have many diffirent emotes to show off. cosmetic rewards are very good to enlighten the gameplay.

Also, have you heard of a thing that's called catering to various classes? The clans sure got an overhaul this year, many new weapons come out each year, and yet when an update comes out that suits the roleplaying comunity in so many ways...Ranting begins.

That's fair enough. I thought you were implying a whole different aspect of the update than what I was referring to at first. I still think you're misunderstanding me about the 3/12 months thing. Normally these summer players would only pay for these 3 months (regardless of loyalty based on play time, as they're measuring loyalty based on $), but now they feel forced to pay when they're not even playing (or just for 1 or 3 days for those other updates). One of my friends whom I met years ago back on RSC is someone whom I only see during the summer, because that's the only real time he can play (hence, the only time he pays). I saw him on around P2P near Christmas just for that extra reward from the holiday update. He also subscribes for the bonus XP weekends just so he can take advantage of the extra XP. He didn't subscribe for new, exciting, or game-changing content; he did it because of artificial content.

I would personally consider him a loyal player (he was constantly subscribed from 2003-2008 until he began college), considering he has every non-trade-able holiday item and still loves RuneScape , but Jagex doesn't see it that way. It's not because he doesn't want to play, it's because he can't (God forbid he become a productive member of society with a medical degree). I don't necessarily have a problem with that because that's not how the mechanics of the program work. I do have a problem with making him, as well as others, feel obligated to stay subscribed even when they don't play and for not rewarding past suscriptions (they were obviously loyal and it's just plain illogical not to thank them for when they did subscribe). How was he not loyal for nearly 50 straight months and an additional 11 now? The only reason he's not "loyal" by Jagex's bizarre definition of the word is because of time constraints with his education.

It would kind of be like my grandma making monthly payments on a brand new car that she would only use to buy groceries twice a month. But who am I to argue with Jagex? I'm just a nub who's been around for only 7 straight years and subscribed for only 5 straight years. Apparently, my friend and I aren't so loyal as little Billy who wanted nothing more than the Ornate Katana for his June birthday :(. Even his W31 house parties girlfriend, "Lady ImNotADude," got that well-designed hand shake emote (the program certainly was designed for a wide variety of players ;-) ). Maybe we'll catch up to his loyalty when he has to unsubscribe just to make it through Mrs. Johnson's 4th grade class next year (I hear they have to do scary things like read books without pictures, write in cursive, and perform long division). All joking aside, it really is a horrible measurement of loyalty to disregard past membership. I know my friend certainly had the time to play back when he did and would now as well, but he's busy becoming a doctor or something useless like that. But Jagex really is in the right here; he's obviously not loyal just because he wants to eat and study instead of paying for RS and playing during those 9 months.
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#37
Crocefisso
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@Crocefisso

As you yourself said, you don't expect people to fall for it. If that's the case, then there's no reason to be upset with JaGex.


Looking at it from a more calm perspective, that is true, but the message I intended to give, but I think forgot to express properly, was that Jagex could be doing far better things than spending their efforts on such nonsense updates as a loyalty programme.


"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau


#38
Foodfight13
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Allright, I do have to say the first article shocked me.

I always valued tip.it times as an informative source of runescape news and overviews, but to encounter something so blatantly incompetent in there...

Crocefisso who wrote the article clearly tried to represent only one side of the argument...


Is there anything wrong with trying to represent only one side of the argument? Last time I checked that was a VERY effective way to win debates and persuade people that your opinion is best. Who the cabbage cares that it was biased towards one opinion? I can't recall any articles in my inconsistent reading of the Tip.It Times to be an excellent non-biased evaluation of both-sides of an argument on a Runescape-related situation. You and some others seem to be horribly offended someone wrote an article that doesn't agree with your opinion. Deal with it. If you don't like it, write your own opinion article giving the other side. If you want a constant stream of news and opinions that is horribly biased towards only what you think, go watch any major American news channel.

Also, I'd like to see you explain how the Tip.It Times is a source of "news."

Looking at it from a more calm perspective, that is true, but the message I intended to give, but I think forgot to express properly, was that Jagex could be doing far better things than spending their efforts on such nonsense updates as a loyalty programme.

Yes gosh dang it. How about as a reward for being a member so loyally, I get new good quality content and see the day Jagex makes the next big step towards shutting down macroers? I'll take that over silly emotes and costumes anyday.
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#39
SilverEternis
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I know it wasn't your intention, but the article really came off as sounding like a whiny f2p.

The intention is purely to attract free players to the members’ game, and encourage current members to keep paying (especially when summer ends), with the enticing prospect of yet more content. I’ve never seen a lazier marketing ploy by a developer. Jagex are not offering these loyal customers of theirs anything new in terms of deeper gameplay, or anything even remotely as good; in a nutshell, they’re offering people who pay over extended periods of time the ability to make their avatar literally roll on the floor laughing.


Probably one of the daftest things I've ever read. I guess the likes of Tesco, Game etc. have it all completely wrong then. :rolleyes:

That's the whole point - they are 'forcing' people to get more membership by such methods instead of making them want to do it on their own for the quality of the content and game itself.


Nobody is forced to do anything. If players don't like it they don't pay. Simple.

Why should i be happy or care that they are making money? The only thing i care about, with regards to Runescape, is that i enjoy it. Sure, theoretically speaking more money can mean more investment into Runescape, but im not seeing that. All i'm seeing is more money in their pockets for an increasingly less relevant game.


They don't make money the game doesn't survive. You don't care because you've stated you don't play. I think the general playing population does care that the company makes money. I've seen enough updates over the last year to disagree with your investment statements. The money has to come from somewhere.

Again, that's the point - you get things for doing nothing and it's all just to make you pay money for a game you aren't even playing.


Actually there's many AFKers so technically some are already doing this. There are also the efficiency trolls pushing for 'xp while logged out'. . Never saw the point of it but hey [garden tool]..............



All of my thoughts. ^
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#40
Kaida23
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Yes gosh dang it. How about as a reward for being a member so loyally, I get new good quality content and see the day Jagex makes the next big step towards shutting down macroers? I'll take that over silly emotes and costumes anyday.

Well said. :thumbup:

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