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Dutch court ruling on kids forcing another to hand over RS goods


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#21
Ring_World
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If runescape money has real value why isnt it taxable

Ring World - 1 Dutch Courts - 0


Hold the non existend phone there. doesn't the fact that RWT exists imply it has a monetary value? that would mean you could tax it.


>Implying that if I turned all my real world assets into runescape gold via gold buying that the IRS could take my runescape gold :lol:






But see, in your example:
Person A lends Person B a bike.
Person C then takes the bike from Person B.

Person B lost nothing of his own possession/value. Person A was the one who lost something of value to Person C.

Now, let's do the same for the RuneScape OP's example. Jagex would be Person A. The difference is that Jagex didn't lose anything of value (The mask/amulet is still theirs). The kid, Person B, also didn't lose anything that was his either because the mask and amulet were not his. In this case, nothing was stolen as Jagex still has possession/ownership of their mask and amulet.

You forgot one thing, at runescape the person could have spend hours and hours to get those items. The person with the bike did not need to spend that many hours to get the bike. It is like you borrowing a house which you live in and someone breaks things of/in your house which the owner of the house (the person you are borrowing it from) has to get refund but has taken hours of you to repear it (or something like that).
The persons didn't steal a thing from him, they did steal his time and work spend on the game.

Jagex owns your account and everything on it. Jagex still owns it when the kid pulled out his knife.

Deal with it.

Where did I say jagex doesn't?


It deals with existing precedences where you cant buy "work" put into accounts or items in RWTing.

For example I cant make a gold selling site that sells gold and runescape accounts by saying I am selling the work I put into gathering the materials not the gold itself. If I could you better believe that the owners of those sites would have lawsuits up in Jagex face for stealing their work (via bans).




Edit: My ultimate stance is, is that the kid should be in-trouble for threatening the other kid with a knife and trying to illegally gather personal information under duress (his account info) instead of the actual theft. If virtual gold is seen as real you open up a real pandora's box.

Edited by Ring_World, 04 July 2011 - 11:16 AM.


#22
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But see, in your example:
Person A lends Person B a bike.
Person C then takes the bike from Person B.

Person B lost nothing of his own possession/value. Person A was the one who lost something of value to Person C.

Now, let's do the same for the RuneScape OP's example. Jagex would be Person A. The difference is that Jagex didn't lose anything of value (The mask/amulet is still theirs). The kid, Person B, also didn't lose anything that was his either because the mask and amulet were not his. In this case, nothing was stolen as Jagex still has possession/ownership of their mask and amulet.

You forgot one thing, at runescape the person could have spend hours and hours to get those items. The person with the bike did not need to spend that many hours to get the bike. It is like you borrowing a house which you live in and someone breaks things of/in your house which the owner of the house (the person you are borrowing it from) has to get refund but has taken hours of you to repear it (or something like that).
The persons didn't steal a thing from him, they did steal his time and work spend on the game.

Jagex owns your account and everything on it. Jagex still owns it when the kid pulled out his knife.

Deal with it.

Where did I say jagex doesn't?


It deals with existing precedences where you cant buy "work" put into accounts or items in RWTing.

For example I cant make a gold selling site that sells gold and runescape accounts by saying I am selling the work I put into gathering the materials not the gold itself. If I could you better believe that the owners of those sites would have lawsuits up in Jagex face for stealing their work (via bans).

I wasn't talking about the value of the work done in the court case, but I was talking about the value of the work done for the person himself.

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#23
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The points are one in the same. If my work in runescape has value, whats stopping me from suing Jagex for banning me. Yes they own my account and my money but they dont own the work I put into it that they stole.

Its a valid argument too btw, and would hold up in a court

#24
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So if your account gets compromised, and your items are stolen transferred to another account, can you ask Jagex to take action against the hackers? You've had nothing that was yours stolen, after all.
Hell, if you couldn't log into your account the next day, you've lost nothing, right?

Is this the implication of the ToS?

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#25
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So if your account gets compromised, and your items are stolen transferred to another account, can you ask Jagex to take action against the hackers? You've had nothing that was yours stolen, after all.
Hell, if you couldn't log into your account the next day, you've lost nothing, right?

Is this the implication of the ToS?


They can get in trouble for illegally getting the persons account information. (same crime the guy who hacked Sarah Palins email was getting charged with) however they cant do crap about the value of the items taken.

Again if the value of the gold directly has value, you create a problem for Jagex should players get banned (Second Life had a similar problem when they sold property and banned a player)

If the value of the work put into the account has value, you create a problem for Jagex in the same way since Jagex doesnt own the work you put into the game, only the account and items themselves. Wonder what 200 days of time is worth?

#26
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So if your account gets compromised, and your items are stolen transferred to another account, can you ask Jagex to take action against the hackers? You've had nothing that was yours stolen, after all.
Hell, if you couldn't log into your account the next day, you've lost nothing, right?

Is this the implication of the ToS?


They can get in trouble for illegally getting the persons account information. (same crime the guy who hacked Sarah Palins email was getting charged with) however they cant do crap about the value of the items taken.

Again if the value of the gold directly has value, you create a problem for Jagex should players get banned (Second Life had a similar problem when they sold property and banned a player)

If the value of the work put into the account has value, you create a problem for Jagex in the same way since Jagex doesnt own the work you put into the game, only the account and items themselves. Wonder what 200 days of time is worth?


To the second Life part, maybe a little off, but isn't Jagex creating that same problem for themselves now with the Loyalty program and all?
And to the time part: Dang, that's gonna be interesting if you put it that way. Assuming you mean 200 days WORTH of time that's:

200 x 24 = 4800 hours x minimum wage of maybe 3.50 euros (for a kid well under 18 in the Netherlands i think you end up somewhere there at 14, 15 at most)
so 4800 hours times 3,50 makes 16.800.
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#27
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Possibly, but they can justify it as extras right now. If they sold gold directly they would be opening up that problen (yes even if they write in their ToS 100 times that they own the gold, you still own it if they sold it to you)

#28
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they still threatened him at knife point over runescape
LOL

#29
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You could argue that they changed Jagex's property in a way Jagex does not want, at knife-point. I'm not sure what the punishment for that is though. It wouldn't be theft, but it'd be damaging goods? Either way it sucks :S.
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#30
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Couldn't Jagex write in their ToS that by paying for membership you are "renting" items and gold, then continue to say that if you violate one of their rules the "contract" between yourself and Jagex is null and void, giving them the right to ban you?
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#31
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In short, the court ruled that these virtual goods have both an in-game as a real monetary value and can therefore be seen as "real" goods.

But until Jagex introduces micro-transactions, those goods belong to Jagex, not the kid. Therefore, the kid had nothing stolen from him, nor was any of that "real monetary value" even his.


Actually, even when microtransactions do get added, you will still not own the item. You're paying for a license for the item, not the item itself. Everything still belongs to Jagex.

Personally they shouldn't be worrying about who owns what. Let's focus on putting those psychopathic little [bleep]ers away for a long time that would threaten to knife someone over video game goods.

Even then, these kids still stole a license, if not the actual good. Similar to stealing a cd key from a video game box at a store, even if you aren't stealing the physical disk.

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#32
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#33
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You could argue that they changed Jagex's property in a way Jagex does not want, at knife-point. I'm not sure what the punishment for that is though. It wouldn't be theft, but it'd be damaging goods? Either way it sucks :S.


The same punishment as if I pulled a knife to you and said give me your social security number.

The information in this case is your password, which is very tryable. In the united states a husband might be going to jail for "hacking" into his wifes email because she wrote her password on a paper and he found it and found she was having an affair with him.

Even in the case that the kid was logged in and no personal information could be seen or gathered there are stil laws against threatening someone with a deadly weapon.

#34
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Some kid threatened me with a knife over Pokemon Silver :P the same day he was caught with it and expelled. 4th grade :)
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Pretty ridiculous though, a couple of young teens telling him they'll kill him if he doesn't hand over RS stuff.

#35
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It's horrible to see that RS money and items are of such importance to some people that they're ready to do something like this just to get it.

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#36
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Possibly, but they can justify it as extras right now. If they sold gold directly they would be opening up that problen (yes even if they write in their ToS 100 times that they own the gold, you still own it if they sold it to you)

Perhaps this is a reason for them experimenting with account rollbacks and buybacks
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#37
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If runescape money has real value why isnt it taxable

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Technically if you RWT you are supposed to report the "income" to the IRS... (not than any RWTers do)
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#38
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Legal basis changes depending on the object or at least in the EU. For instance if I hire a car and then sell it to someone they own the car and the hire company cannot simply re-take the car from the person who bought it and leave it up to them to claim money on insurance/sue the person who sold them the car. It is the hire companies responsibility to take legal action against the person who sold the car to regain lost money. This is a fairly unique legal case but if something similar is the case for virtual goods you could argue that once you buy gold from a gold seller Jagex can only take action against the gold seller rather than you. Of course this is null because of the license agreement you ticked.

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#39
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Legal basis changes depending on the object or at least in the EU. For instance if I hire a car and then sell it to someone they own the car and the hire company cannot simply re-take the car from the person who bought it and leave it up to them to claim money on insurance/sue the person who sold them the car. It is the hire companies responsibility to take legal action against the person who sold the car to regain lost money. This is a fairly unique legal case but if something similar is the case for virtual goods you could argue that once you buy gold from a gold seller Jagex can only take action against the gold seller rather than you. Of course this is null because of the license agreement you ticked.

There is a difference in buying a car which you don't know that it is a hired one and buying runescape money which you know is against the rules.

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#40
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The points are one in the same. If my work in runescape has value, whats stopping me from suing Jagex for banning me. Yes they own my account and my money but they dont own the work I put into it that they stole.

Its a valid argument too btw, and would hold up in a court

Absolute rubbish. You don't work in runescape you're paying for the entertainment value under licence as Omali quite correctly stated on page 1. You don't own anything in the game or the effort that goes into it. You're getting your money's worth from the actual playing of the game. They can withdraw this at any time, just like any company can under software licence. Probably in their terms and conditions if you can be arsed reading it. If they were that stupid all and sundry would be taking them to court.




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