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sebas379

Dutch court ruling on kids forcing another to hand over RS goods

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So if your account gets compromised, and your items are stolen transferred to another account, can you ask Jagex to take action against the hackers? You've had nothing that was yours stolen, after all.

Hell, if you couldn't log into your account the next day, you've lost nothing, right?

 

Is this the implication of the ToS?

 

They can get in trouble for illegally getting the persons account information. (same crime the guy who hacked Sarah Palins email was getting charged with) however they cant do crap about the value of the items taken.

 

Again if the value of the gold directly has value, you create a problem for Jagex should players get banned (Second Life had a similar problem when they sold property and banned a player)

 

If the value of the work put into the account has value, you create a problem for Jagex in the same way since Jagex doesnt own the work you put into the game, only the account and items themselves. Wonder what 200 days of time is worth?

 

To the second Life part, maybe a little off, but isn't Jagex creating that same problem for themselves now with the Loyalty program and all?

And to the time part: Dang, that's gonna be interesting if you put it that way. Assuming you mean 200 days WORTH of time that's:

 

200 x 24 = 4800 hours x minimum wage of maybe 3.50 euros (for a kid well under 18 in the Netherlands i think you end up somewhere there at 14, 15 at most)

so 4800 hours times 3,50 makes 16.800.


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First they came to fishing

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing;

Then they came to the yews

and I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews;

Then they came for the ores

and I didn't speak out because I didn't collect ores;

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

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Possibly, but they can justify it as extras right now. If they sold gold directly they would be opening up that problen (yes even if they write in their ToS 100 times that they own the gold, you still own it if they sold it to you)

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You could argue that they changed Jagex's property in a way Jagex does not want, at knife-point. I'm not sure what the punishment for that is though. It wouldn't be theft, but it'd be damaging goods? Either way it sucks :S.


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Couldn't Jagex write in their ToS that by paying for membership you are "renting" items and gold, then continue to say that if you violate one of their rules the "contract" between yourself and Jagex is null and void, giving them the right to ban you?


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In short, the court ruled that these virtual goods have both an in-game as a real monetary value and can therefore be seen as "real" goods.

But until Jagex introduces micro-transactions, those goods belong to Jagex, not the kid. Therefore, the kid had nothing stolen from him, nor was any of that "real monetary value" even his.

 

Actually, even when microtransactions do get added, you will still not own the item. You're paying for a license for the item, not the item itself. Everything still belongs to Jagex.

 

Personally they shouldn't be worrying about who owns what. Let's focus on putting those psychopathic little [bleep]ers away for a long time that would threaten to knife someone over video game goods.

Even then, these kids still stole a license, if not the actual good. Similar to stealing a cd key from a video game box at a store, even if you aren't stealing the physical disk.


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"What are you in for?"

 

"Stealing a blue mask on Runescape."

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You could argue that they changed Jagex's property in a way Jagex does not want, at knife-point. I'm not sure what the punishment for that is though. It wouldn't be theft, but it'd be damaging goods? Either way it sucks :S.

 

The same punishment as if I pulled a knife to you and said give me your social security number.

 

The information in this case is your password, which is very tryable. In the united states a husband might be going to jail for "hacking" into his wifes email because she wrote her password on a paper and he found it and found she was having an affair with him.

 

Even in the case that the kid was logged in and no personal information could be seen or gathered there are stil laws against threatening someone with a deadly weapon.

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Some kid threatened me with a knife over Pokemon Silver :P the same day he was caught with it and expelled. 4th grade :)

--

 

Pretty ridiculous though, a couple of young teens telling him they'll kill him if he doesn't hand over RS stuff.

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It's horrible to see that RS money and items are of such importance to some people that they're ready to do something like this just to get it.


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Possibly, but they can justify it as extras right now. If they sold gold directly they would be opening up that problen (yes even if they write in their ToS 100 times that they own the gold, you still own it if they sold it to you)

Perhaps this is a reason for them experimenting with account rollbacks and buybacks


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If runescape money has real value why isnt it taxable

 

Ring World - 1 Dutch Courts - 0

 

Technically if you RWT you are supposed to report the "income" to the IRS... (not than any RWTers do)


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Legal basis changes depending on the object or at least in the EU. For instance if I hire a car and then sell it to someone they own the car and the hire company cannot simply re-take the car from the person who bought it and leave it up to them to claim money on insurance/sue the person who sold them the car. It is the hire companies responsibility to take legal action against the person who sold the car to regain lost money. This is a fairly unique legal case but if something similar is the case for virtual goods you could argue that once you buy gold from a gold seller Jagex can only take action against the gold seller rather than you. Of course this is null because of the license agreement you ticked.


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Legal basis changes depending on the object or at least in the EU. For instance if I hire a car and then sell it to someone they own the car and the hire company cannot simply re-take the car from the person who bought it and leave it up to them to claim money on insurance/sue the person who sold them the car. It is the hire companies responsibility to take legal action against the person who sold the car to regain lost money. This is a fairly unique legal case but if something similar is the case for virtual goods you could argue that once you buy gold from a gold seller Jagex can only take action against the gold seller rather than you. Of course this is null because of the license agreement you ticked.

There is a difference in buying a car which you don't know that it is a hired one and buying runescape money which you know is against the rules.


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Guest jrhairychest

The points are one in the same. If my work in runescape has value, whats stopping me from suing Jagex for banning me. Yes they own my account and my money but they dont own the work I put into it that they stole.

 

Its a valid argument too btw, and would hold up in a court

Absolute rubbish. You don't work in runescape you're paying for the entertainment value under licence as Omali quite correctly stated on page 1. You don't own anything in the game or the effort that goes into it. You're getting your money's worth from the actual playing of the game. They can withdraw this at any time, just like any company can under software licence. Probably in their terms and conditions if you can be arsed reading it. If they were that stupid all and sundry would be taking them to court.

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[spoiler=Chrome translation of OP's link]Advocate General opinion in the case "RuneScape" The Hague , 06/28/2011 On June 28, 2011, the Advocate General at the Supreme EJ Hofstee an opinion in the case 'RuneScape' (case number 10/00101 J) Background This conclusion about whether a virtual object that is a good theft (art. 310 Criminal Code) is susceptible. The suspect is a co-defendant along with the then 13-year-old victim taken to the home of the co-defendant. Here they have the victim assaulted and threatened with knives, in order to force the victim to sign on his account in the online game RuneScape. Subsequently, the defendants a virtual amulet and a virtual mask of the victim was transferred to their account. Procedure in court, Supreme court and the court convicted the accused on October 21, 2008 (LJN BG0939 ) for theft, preceded and accompanied by violence and threat to community service for the duration of 160 hours and a suspended juvenile detention for four weeks with a probationary period of two years. The court, the defendant on November 10, 2009 (LJN BK2773 ) appeal also convicted of theft, preceded and accompanied violence and threats to the same punishment. The court is whether the virtual amulet and virtual mask can be considered as a good subject for theft in the affirmative. On behalf of accused is appealed. Mr. RP Snorn, lawyer in Heerenveen, the defendant assisted in cassation. The conclusion of the Advocate General , the Advocate General considers that the virtual amulet and virtual mask can be considered as goods for theft prone. First discusses the Advocate General of the legislative history and the principle of legality. Then he comes to the conclusion that these virtual objects also in the jurisprudence of the Supreme Court has developed criteria for the concept of 'good' standards. Because the virtual objects represent an economic value, both inside and outside the game and are more portable and to individualize. Also a reasonable interpretation of the law opposition is not against the theft of virtual items. This leads to the conclusion that the court applied the correct legal test framework. Further course of the case was referred to the role of 4 October 2011. For now the decision of the Supreme Council on that date. Finally a conclusion is one legal opinion to the Supreme Court. The Advocate General is a member of the public prosecutor at the Supreme Court. The prosecutor at the Supreme Court is an autonomous, independent member of the judiciary. It is not part of the prosecution. The prosecutor at the Supreme Court may on the one Supreme Court case to beoordelen no different outlets than in the context of the claim and is not in a position to give further comment. The Hague, June 28, 2011

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edit: nevermind, did miss something.

 

I find it sick that you would go as far as threathen someone with a knife for runescape goods...

 

Runescape is serious [cabbage].


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Save the kids.

 

Remove free trade.

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Regardless of whether or not anything was "stolen" (alluding to the argument that Jagex still owns it), threatening someone with a knife is enough to do something about it IMO.


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The points are one in the same. If my work in runescape has value, whats stopping me from suing Jagex for banning me. Yes they own my account and my money but they dont own the work I put into it that they stole.

 

Its a valid argument too btw, and would hold up in a court

Absolute rubbish. You don't work in runescape you're paying for the entertainment value under licence as Omali quite correctly stated on page 1. You don't own anything in the game or the effort that goes into it. You're getting your money's worth from the actual playing of the game. They can withdraw this at any time, just like any company can under software licence. Probably in their terms and conditions if you can be arsed reading it. If they were that stupid all and sundry would be taking them to court.

 

Well obviously that is how things are now. If however it is determined in courts that your work in runescape DOES have value then everything I said does apply. That was the assumption made when the post was written, not quoting that is just straw manning me

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All because of free trade.

 

Like free trade had anything to do with it. They couldve stole his account at knife point and transfered 50k for 2 weeks. If anything free trade saved the kids account!

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Save the kids.

 

Remove free trade.

thinkofthechildren.jpg

 

On topic, this sort of thing is hardly new (well, maybe to RS). Every so often there's another story of somebody who was robbed of, or stole, some item from one MMO or another. The one I remember most was when some guy in Asia (possibly Korea but don't quote me) hacked his friend's account and sold off a rare in-game sword and the guy who was hacked killed him over it.


 

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Guest jrhairychest

The points are one in the same. If my work in runescape has value, whats stopping me from suing Jagex for banning me. Yes they own my account and my money but they dont own the work I put into it that they stole.

 

Its a valid argument too btw, and would hold up in a court

Absolute rubbish. You don't work in runescape you're paying for the entertainment value under licence as Omali quite correctly stated on page 1. You don't own anything in the game or the effort that goes into it. You're getting your money's worth from the actual playing of the game. They can withdraw this at any time, just like any company can under software licence. Probably in their terms and conditions if you can be arsed reading it. If they were that stupid all and sundry would be taking them to court.

 

Well obviously that is how things are now. If however it is determined in courts that your work in runescape DOES have value then everything I said does apply. That was the assumption made when the post was written, not quoting that is just straw manning me

 

No that's not what you said at all. You're claiming your statement would hold up in court as a matter of fact. It doesn't. Complete fallacy.

 

The quoting is to show where the flaws in your point lie, not for you to hide behind the age old defence of straw man. Don't post garbage if you don't like being told it's garbage.

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Regarding the arguments about whether Jagex own the work put into your account, when you join RS you agree to a legally binding contract stating that:

 

(From http://www.runescape.com/terms/terms.ws)

If, acting reasonably, we consider that our Terms and Conditions have or may have been breached, or that there has been fraudulent, unlawful or abusive activity, or that it is necessary in order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product, to other players or the general public, we may Stop (as defined above) any or all accounts of Jagex Products which we think are connected with the offender subject to such right of appeal as is specified on our website and/or restrict access to or delete virtual currency or anything acquired by means of virtual currency. Such actions may result in loss of membership credit and/or loss of real money paid as part of any item / account trading or other prohibited transaction.

 

To prevent or remedy breach of our Terms and Conditions or any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product or to other players or the general public , we may automatically or manually monitor, censor (including rejection or removal of any content) and/or record public or private chat or other activities in any Jagex Product.

 

Mischief in relation to data

(1.1) Every one commits mischief who wilfully

 

(a) destroys or alters data;

 

(b) renders data meaningless, useless or ineffective;

 

© obstructs, interrupts or interferes with the lawful use of data; or

 

(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful use of data or denies access to data to any person who is entitled to access thereto.

 

Surely that should have more parameters, otherwise anyone who alters any data at all would be committing a crime, regardless of whether they created/owned it or not.


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