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Tip.It Times - 24th July 2011


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42 replies to this topic

#21
jasignhagj
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I was quite disappointed in the interview. The second and fourth articles didn't seem to really have a point, but were still good reads.

I feel the third article really covered the issue well, although I do still think the wildy/free trade poll was a bit of a gimmick to get players who had quit active (and subscribing) again.

#22
loqk
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like member rewards points, citadels are a new method of punishing players for being non members.

in all previous updates, if you could pay, you got all the advantages of membership. if you could not, the advantages of membership would be reinstated as soon as you could pay.

in these new updates, as soon as you can't pay, (for example you needed your pocket money to but Christmas presents or needed your pay for medical bills), you are punished. directly through reward points, as the points rate is reduced, and indirectly via citadels as your team mates become unable to maintain their work.

these are both classic psychological torture methods designed to force you to continue paying jagex despite your economic situation.

the rewards points are relatively mild and put pressure on players, but at least it is still their own decision.

if citadels simply degraded visually, and maintained their level, this would be moot, but since the citadels lose real work, this forces clans to demand that clan members also become paying members to maintain the citadel. this use of psychology to put peer pressure on other players is unconscionable.

in the past, i have always recommended runescape to my friends as an excellent game that allowed players the freedom to play as they wanted. as of the introduction of citadels, the management has shown themselves to use the kind of dark psychological techniques used by black mailers and fraudsters. i am very disappointed in the management and can no longer play a game that uses such underhanded techniques let alone recommend it to others.

#23
murtagah8
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From the Impossible Balance: "Similarly, anyone gullible enough to believe that Jagex had some sort of comprehensive strategy to defeat bots – as Jagex did, at one point, claim – is the same sort of moron who gets ripped off under free trade."

Yes, I was skeptical too (clearly for good reason.) However, I trusted their word on this matter because they had done something about it in the past (aka removal of free trade/ "old wild".) This does not make me gullible. They said they had a plan, there was evidence from the past that they could come up with remedies to similar issues (the bots pre-free trade/ "old wild" removal.) Due to this, I chose to believe them. THIS DOES NOT MAKE ME A MORON! They said they could take care of it, there was evidence from the past saying they could. Please do not deride players who thought differently than you to try to reinforce your point. It is not okay.

#24
loqk
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instancing being used to combine people from different worlds would be awesome, and the technique itself sounds brilliantly implemented. at first i wondered why people would want instances as it would reduce the number of people playing, but this explanation sounds quite good.

personally, i have seen only about 2 bots since the re-introduction of the wilderness. what i have seen more of is people accusing power levellers of being bots.

what happens is that some power leveller is skilling as hard as they can, and not chatting. some pker comes along, demands that they talk, then kills them and claims they were a bot. confirmation bias means that these people see bots every where they go. they claim there are far more bots than there really are because each time they see someone who won't talk to them, they declare them a bot. each time they see a "bot" it just confirms that everyone around them is a bot.

this is more a psychosis than a reality. there may be many bots, but if so, i have only seen 2, potential (not actual) bots once on a non members world.

if there really are a lot of bots on non member's worlds, perhaps the players that fear them so much should just change to a member's world instead :-)

if the people who can pay, do so, there will be fewer players to compete with those who can't and the bots won't be so much of a problem as total competition will reduce.

#25
Kaida23
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I see bots while mining every day. I know they're bots and not real players because they follow a predictable pattern, and no real person would wander back and forth between the rocks for two hours while getting no ores without complaining or leaving.

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#26
Mini_Spawn
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I was quite disappointed in the interview. The second and fourth articles didn't seem to really have a point, but were still good reads.

I feel the third article really covered the issue well, although I do still think the wildy/free trade poll was a bit of a gimmick to get players who had quit active (and subscribing) again.



My feelings exactly. the author of the balance article did a really good job of covering the issue. I agreed with most everything he said. I was fairly disappointed with all the articles aside from the balancing article.
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#27
phimugirl
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I'd like to address Crocefisso, author of the article "The Impossible Balance." First, a bit of constructive criticism. Your tone and writing style were abrasive. The first time I started to read your article I didn't finish because your harsh, rude tone irritated me and reminded me of those political commentators who make their point by bashing their opponents with scathing remarks that lack any true wit.

I resumed reading your article after a friend mentioned to me that you directly insulted those who think differently than you on the issue of free trade and player vs. player wilderness. I wanted to be sure this was the case and it was. Calling those who think differently than you morons is simply not okay. Again, this is the same tactic as many political commentators who use name-calling to garner the support of the dim-witted and try and undermine their opponents when they have no true arguments to back them up.

I quite like the elements of free trade and player vs. player wilderness myself. It makes the game more interesting and more like the fantasy worlds it is trying to emulate. You see, in most of these worlds (and in the middle ages, a time many fantasy worlds, including runescape, are modeled after) free trade with friends and neighbors is quite a common occurrence as is the concept of being attacked by those that would kill you for your possession or in an attempt to prove themselves stronger or better than others. It is quite understandable that there are those players who would want to engage in these behaviors as they can enrich their game playing experience.

For those who do not enjoy such activities the solution is simple: don't engage in them. If you don't wish to trade with individual players outside the avenue of the grand exchange don't. Likewise if you don't wish to kill random players in the wilderness to take their items don't, and don't take anything you can't afford or don't wish to lose with you when you go there and exercise caution in your explorations. As a relatively new player (I only started playing in May) this is my strategy when I visit the wilderness. I bank all of my items before entering, and do not explore too deeply on my own. There is plenty more to explore in the world of runescape that is safe at my level after all.

If you don't like these features of runescape, don't try and ruin them for those who do. Instead focus your energies else where. Perhaps you could try dealing with the problems of poverty and hunger in the real world instead of pouring so much into something that is, in the end, just a video game. But then again that's just my opinion, and unlike Crocefisso I don't insult those with opinions then my own. Everyone is, after all, entitled to their own opinion.

#28
RU_Insane
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I see bots while mining every day. I know they're bots and not real players because they follow a predictable pattern, and no real person would wander back and forth between the rocks for two hours while getting no ores without complaining or leaving.


This. Many bots travel around in groups, often with similar setups, following predicable patterns, performing the same task over and over for hours straight with no interaction with other players. Even if they don't get the ores/logs they need, they wander back and forth waiting for that re-spawn. They don't give up. They are programmed to perform a task in stages. They will repeat a certain stage until a flag tells them it's okay to move onto the next sub-task. This is why you'll see many bots running back and forth between rocks/trees because of competition.

They are waiting to get enough logs/ores to bank. When they get enough, they follow the predictable pattern to the bank, follow the predictable pattern back to the resource spot, and repeat gathering. And when all of this is happening, they never say a single word. They're very easy to distinguish from normal players. Bot behavior is very unusual. The fact that you can see many "players" acting the same way I and Kaida described simply means there's many, many bots, and it's not pretty to see.

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#29
Mini_Spawn
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I'd like to address Crocefisso, author of the article "The Impossible Balance." First, a bit of constructive criticism. You're tone and writing style were abrasive. The first time I started to read your article I didn't finish because your harsh, rude tone irritated me and reminded me of those political commentators who make their point by bashing their opponents with scathing remarks that lack any true wit. I resumed reading your article after a friend mentioned to me that you directly insulted those who think differently than you on the issue of free trade and player vs. player wilderness. I wanted to be sure this was the case and it was. Calling those who think differently than you morons is simply not okay. Again, this is the same tactic as many political commentators who use name-calling to garner the support of the dim-witted and try and undermine their opponents when they have no true arguments to back them up. I quite like the elements of free trade and player vs. player wilderness myself. It makes the game more interesting and more like the fantasy worlds it is trying to emulate. You see, in most of these worlds (and in the middle ages, a time many fantasy worlds, including runescape, are modeled after) free trade with friends and neighbors is quite a common occurrence as is the concept of being attacked by those that would kill you for your possession or in an attempt to prove themselves stronger or better than others. It is quite understandable that there are those players who would want to engage in these behaviors as they can enrich their game playing experience. And for those who do not enjoy such activities the solution is simple: don't engage in them. If you don't wish to trade with individual players outside the avenue of the grand exchange don't. Likewise if you don't wish to kill random players in the wilderness to take their items don't, and don't take anything you can't afford or don't wish to lose with you when you go there and exercise caution in your explorations. As a relatively new player (I only started playing in May) this is my strategy when I visit the wilderness. I bank all of my items before entering, and do not explore too deeply on my own. There is plenty more to explore in the world of runescape that is safe at my level after all. But if you don't like these features of runescape, don't try and ruin them for those who do. Instead focus your energies else where. Perhaps you could try dealing with the problems of poverty and hunger in the real world instead of pouring so much into something that is, in the end, just a video game. But then again that's just my opinion, and unlike Crocefisso I don't insult those with opinions then my own. Everyone is, after all, entitled to their own opinion.


1. Use the enter button. The wall of text is hard on the eyes

2. as a player who just started this may on their first account you shouldn't be taking on a lecturing tone. I agree that the author was harsh- but I also feel like the harshness was necessary. I can understand a criticism of his tone- not everyone will see things the same way that I do, but I also feel like you have to have an idea what you're talking about before you give that criticism. You haven't been around since 07 and don't know what the game was like with trade limits or what the wilderness and trade was like before the grand exchange etc. I feel like you have to have a good grasp on the topic of the article before you give criticism on how it is presented.

3. You're right. you don't insult those who have a different opinion than you. You pretend like you're they're mother.

4. the people the author is talking about have NO idea what they want or the consequences of their actions. Jagex is bombarded with criticism from 12 year olds and then has to try to figure out a solution to their problems while at the same time considering the consequences. If the player base knew what they wanted and were able to vocalize this in a manner that made sense I feel like Jagex would be more responsive. I feel like jagex is doing a good job working with what they're given. 12 year olds.
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#30
Troacctid
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For the lovers of minigames such as Shades of Mort'ton, Trouble Brewing, Fishing Trawler, and Temple Trekking, this would be a wonderful and welcomed revival.

Temple Trekking's a single-player minigame, yo.

#31
Tim
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They answer the same thing 4-5 times, and ignored a major one:


CAN YOU BUILD A GOD DAMN CLAN CITADEL PORTAL IN YOUR PLAYER-OWNED HOUSE?!?

Jeez. <_<

Popoto.~<3


#32
Deathknell
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They answer the same thing 4-5 times, and ignored a major one:


CAN YOU BUILD A GOD DAMN CLAN CITADEL PORTAL IN YOUR PLAYER-OWNED HOUSE?!?

Jeez. <_<


That would be a detail. Jagex is allergic to those.
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#33
Heisenberg
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They answer the same thing 4-5 times, and ignored a major one:


CAN YOU BUILD A GOD DAMN CLAN CITADEL PORTAL IN YOUR PLAYER-OWNED HOUSE?!?

Jeez. <_<


That would be a detail. Jagex is allergic to those.


Nice sig. I can tell you'll be a valued member here.

@question: I'm pretty sure it won't happen.

#34
Tim
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They answer the same thing 4-5 times, and ignored a major one:


CAN YOU BUILD A GOD DAMN CLAN CITADEL PORTAL IN YOUR PLAYER-OWNED HOUSE?!?

Jeez. <_<


That would be a detail. Jagex is allergic to those.


Nice sig. I can tell you'll be a valued member here.

@question: I'm pretty sure it won't happen.

Peh, Lame. I'd be willing to buy 5 Marble blocks for it.

Popoto.~<3


#35
Crocefisso
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I'd like to address Crocefisso, author of the article "The Impossible Balance." First, a bit of constructive criticism. You're tone and writing style were abrasive. The first time I started to read your article I didn't finish because your harsh, rude tone irritated me and reminded me of those political commentators who make their point by bashing their opponents with scathing remarks that lack any true wit. I resumed reading your article after a friend mentioned to me that you directly insulted those who think differently than you on the issue of free trade and player vs. player wilderness. I wanted to be sure this was the case and it was. Calling those who think differently than you morons is simply not okay. Again, this is the same tactic as many political commentators who use name-calling to garner the support of the dim-witted and try and undermine their opponents when they have no true arguments to back them up. I quite like the elements of free trade and player vs. player wilderness myself. It makes the game more interesting and more like the fantasy worlds it is trying to emulate. You see, in most of these worlds (and in the middle ages, a time many fantasy worlds, including runescape, are modeled after) free trade with friends and neighbors is quite a common occurrence as is the concept of being attacked by those that would kill you for your possession or in an attempt to prove themselves stronger or better than others. It is quite understandable that there are those players who would want to engage in these behaviors as they can enrich their game playing experience. And for those who do not enjoy such activities the solution is simple: don't engage in them. If you don't wish to trade with individual players outside the avenue of the grand exchange don't. Likewise if you don't wish to kill random players in the wilderness to take their items don't, and don't take anything you can't afford or don't wish to lose with you when you go there and exercise caution in your explorations. As a relatively new player (I only started playing in May) this is my strategy when I visit the wilderness. I bank all of my items before entering, and do not explore too deeply on my own. There is plenty more to explore in the world of runescape that is safe at my level after all. But if you don't like these features of runescape, don't try and ruin them for those who do. Instead focus your energies else where. Perhaps you could try dealing with the problems of poverty and hunger in the real world instead of pouring so much into something that is, in the end, just a video game. But then again that's just my opinion, and unlike Crocefisso I don't insult those with opinions then my own. Everyone is, after all, entitled to their own opinion.


1. Use the enter button. The wall of text is hard on the eyes

2. as a player who just started this may on their first account you shouldn't be taking on a lecturing tone. I agree that the author was harsh- but I also feel like the harshness was necessary. I can understand a criticism of his tone- not everyone will see things the same way that I do, but I also feel like you have to have an idea what you're talking about before you give that criticism. You haven't been around since 07 and don't know what the game was like with trade limits or what the wilderness and trade was like before the grand exchange etc. I feel like you have to have a good grasp on the topic of the article before you give criticism on how it is presented.

3. You're right. you don't insult those who have a different opinion than you. You pretend like you're they're mother.

4. the people the author is talking about have NO idea what they want or the consequences of their actions. Jagex is bombarded with criticism from 12 year olds and then has to try to figure out a solution to their problems while at the same time considering the consequences. If the player base knew what they wanted and were able to vocalize this in a manner that made sense I feel like Jagex would be more responsive. I feel like jagex is doing a good job working with what they're given. 12 year olds.


Exactly, Mini Spawn. You're right on the money.

phimugirl: the article was harsh - tonally and content-wise - because the damage caused by people's misguided expectations, memories and idealism have a lot of influence over Jagex and as such yields a degree of influence over Jagex's actions. I think to call the article insulting would be to take it a little too personally.

Similarly, if you read the article, I am not directly bemoaning the reintroduction of free trade and PVP wildy, but rather the player attitudes and culture that facilitated its return, regardless of whether or not the features are good ones.


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#36
steviej
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The impossible balance article really seemed to make some ridiculous claims.

Somehow in this article, it ends up not being the fault of JaGex that their poll looped free trade and wilderness views in together. I mean, The only options were "yes" "no," and "don't care." To me, they should have separated the two ideas altogether. Somehow, you blame the players for the lack of insight on the part of the creator of the poll. Personally, I play the game that is made and don't do too much hating on JaGex, because ultimately, I'm either going to play the game or I'm not. Another thing mentioned in this article was the complaints made immediately after free trade and PVP wilderness returned. I think anyone complaining about the removal of the pvp worlds was completely justified. Seriously, I don't understand how JaGex could take away the best part about not having wilderness, and not expect some complaints.

But to the main point of your article, People are complaining way too much, and the game isn't going to be based around too much player-input as long as the fansites and official forums are filled with posts bashing JaGex for all the bots.

My account spent most of the last 10 months "locked"

#37
fat_klutz
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Similarly, anyone gullible enough to believe that Jagex had some sort of comprehensive strategy to defeat bots – as Jagex did, at one point, claim – is the same sort of moron who gets ripped off under free trade. Botting software is not static; it is always changing, and claiming to have a single, all inclusive solution is ridiculous. Jagex shouldn’t have made such a claim, nor should anyone have believed it.


This is what gives me pause on balance article. You can make accounts harder to create, you can create a tutorial world with strict supervision where accounts have to remain for X number of days before being released into the regular worlds, you can simply stick a Jagex mod at any number of X locations and just start banning the people who are obviously bots. Players who like to be 'quiet' when skilling are going to notice the mod and do something differently so nobody would be magically getting banned. I understand that there isn't a magic button that can be pressed but to call people morons for believing after 2 years (or however long) Jagex might actually invest some time into fighting bots? That's a pretty ridiculous statement.

I agree the solution is to move forward and not back. I feel like Jagex though seems to move sideways.

As for pacing, obviously I agree... how could you not... My opinion is they need to rebalance things across the board, across skills. If RS is going to survive and grow things like smithing tables need to be totally reworked. Full rune needs to be smithable at lvl 50 and Jagex needs to rerelease totally new things. It is ridiculous that it takes 99 smithing to make something incredibly useless (exaggeration, I know it has its uses). Yes, it would be a massive change but I think it needs to happen. Maybe somebody who agrees can talk more about that. I know I said I agree that you can't move backwards but I think Jagex does need to look back and realize that 8 years ago when a r2h was the best item in the game it was ok for the pacing to be how it was and it take 99 smithing to make such a weapon. 8 years later things have changed and the pacing of the game is quite awful IMO. There is too much to do and I feel like new players must be incredibly confused when they join and look at the skills and say what is the point of training smithing when it is going to take me 6 months straight of smithing to make armor I can wear after one day of playing.

Anyway, overall the article is good. It is thought provoking, although the one poster was right, a bit abrasive.
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#38
Crocefisso
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The impossible balance article really seemed to make some ridiculous claims.

Somehow in this article, it ends up not being the fault of JaGex that their poll looped free trade and wilderness views in together. I mean, The only options were "yes" "no," and "don't care." To me, they should have separated the two ideas altogether. Somehow, you blame the players for the lack of insight on the part of the creator of the poll. Personally, I play the game that is made and don't do too much hating on JaGex, because ultimately, I'm either going to play the game or I'm not. Another thing mentioned in this article was the complaints made immediately after free trade and PVP wilderness returned. I think anyone complaining about the removal of the pvp worlds was completely justified. Seriously, I don't understand how JaGex could take away the best part about not having wilderness, and not expect some complaints.

But to the main point of your article, People are complaining way too much, and the game isn't going to be based around too much player-input as long as the fansites and official forums are filled with posts bashing JaGex for all the bots.


Steviej, in my article I am not - as previously stated on this thread - passing any particular judgements on whether or not free trade & PVP wildy were good or bad or whatever. Feedback in this respect does not really relate to the article as I see it. These "ridiculous claims" are, I think, largely existent only in your head.

I understand that there isn't a magic button that can be pressed but to call people morons for believing after 2 years (or however long) Jagex might actually invest some time into fighting bots? That's a pretty ridiculous statement.


I see nothing ridiculous in pointing out that time is irrelevent to the matter. It doesn't matter how long Jagex spend finding a solution to bots, they're never going to find one that's anything more than temporary. This is what people needed to realise at the time, but all realise now, eight months too late.


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#39
fat_klutz
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That's a very pessimistic opinion. They can make account creation more difficult. They can perma ban at the first sign of botting, no matter what. They can refuse member payment from credit cards of people caught botting. They can do the tutorial worlds like I said to better monitor the influx of new accounts instead of just having them mix in immediately with everyone else. They can make reporting botting accounts easier. They can make it so if you're reported X amount of times within Y time limit you have to perform some stupid mundane task that bots wouldn't be able to do. Also I'm not sure how these things are temporary. If you start permanently banning people, they are going to be scared. People aren't going to buy gold anymore or bot their way up. Jagex could additionally require longer membership payments so if you are caught botting you lose more than 5 dollars a month or whatever they charge now.

You talk about the balance between doing what is good for the game and what is popular. Jagex can do plenty of things without removing the wilderness and such to slow the influx of bots and the simple fact is they choose not to.

I just made an account. It took 15 seconds. They require an e-mail address but don't even require you took activate your account with a code? Simple stuff like this might seem like a waste of time but how do you know its not going to help if you don't even try.
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#40
junkiejeff
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My opinion is they need to rebalance things across the board, across skills.


I totally agree with this. You mentioned smithing. But I think allot of features and skills are superfluous nowadays. For example: almost all the bows, axes and pickaxes are totally useless.




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