Tip.It Times - 7th August 2011

[Assume Nothing]

I have to disagree that Jagex is being hypocritical about real world trading. When they refer to RWT, they mean the sale or trade of in-game items by players to other players (ie: gold farmers) not promotional items given away by Jagex themselves.

 

Oh, I'm aware of the distinction, and the argument as such. It's the principle of the idea. There is a view (which I happen to support) that Jagex may be headed down a slippery slope of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". It may be only a small crack in the dam, but if it fully breaks, can we expect to see a rush of promotional items? Will Jagex follow the path of other game developers and allow players to purchase items for the game, beyond what a basic membership offers?

 

I can see it being a distinct possibility, more so after Jagex decided to link RS accounts to Facebook ones. (That means that I think they might *cough*stoop to the level of other game developers on Facebook*cough*) Based on my experiences on Facebook, yes, I have to begrudgingly agree with Duke Freedom: a small minority of adult players WILL cough up real money to buy game items: for Farmville, Mafia Wars, Castle Age, what have you. Yep, ladies and gentlemen, I'm quite ashamed to say I know plenty of people in my age group (28-45) will spend gobs of time on games with grinding treadmills and some will drop some cash money to beat the grind. So... will Jagex attempt to tap into that?

 

What I said on the other article is that Jagex marketing changed VERY critically after Andrew, Paul, and Constant left the board of directors. There were no in-game items tied to real-world money before they left. Now there is. Somewhat paradoxically, I support the Loyalty Rewards Programme, but that is still tied to basic membership, albeit the incentive is for consistent, unlapsed payments.

 

More disturbing is that there is evidence Jagex is now trying to obfuscate stricter and harsher statements made by Paul and Andrew earlier on RWT-- many players would interpret their statements (especially Andrew's) that they would be loathe to introduce official, sanctioned, purchasable items based on past experiences with other MMOs. Based on my own experiences (see my long story about MUDs on the last article topic), I *would* see it that way. *sigh* I can't find all the quotes right at the moment, but it is connected to arguments concerning the new Banned Account Reinstatement policy. (If that material has been written here, fine, hit me with a virtual frying pan, see if my memory reboots.)

 

A big part of the problem with the hordes of bots running roughshod over Gielinor, is that the majority of them are there for the specific purpose of RWT; thus, violating several rules (macroing/use of bots, real world trading, advertising websites, spamming the chat box) while at least annoying, and at worst interfering with, the seemingly decreasing minority of us who still actually play the game.

 

The biggest challenge is figuring out how to stop them without significantly crippling the gameplay of legitimate players.

 

Remove any reason that certain 'legitimate players' would ever feel the need to purchase RSGP in the first place - without a market, no supply would ever be necessary to satisfy it

[Nifflin]

@Nifflin:

 

I mentioned a Bank (as well as a G.E. branch) to be added as one of the very most obvious suggestions for things to put in a Citadel...

 

However I do like the idea of being able to form Dungeoneering parties and dive into the depths of Daemonheim right there and then in your Citadel, but it might be a technical impossibility...

Perhaps we could combine our ideas, and basicly you'd Dungeoneer on your instanced world ("teleporting" from the Daemonheim portal while being in a party straight to the Base-chamber of a Dungeon)...

Exiting a Dungeon would transfer you to Daemonheim (or Clan Camp if this isn't possible) to whatever world you left for your Citadel in the first place...

 

PS: thanks for thinking along :) you're the first to properly respond to my article :)

 

The dungoneering instances are created within the world where the dungeons are hosted. So for citadels I was thinking more like after the party is created the host chooses size ect then chooses the world and all the dgers log in and the dungeon instantly starts. In the same vein people should be able to use clan wars from their citadel. Perhaps you go to the warring board, and it shows other clans open for warring where you can challenge from your citadel.

 

Also a teleport to the deep wild lever.

 

I liked you article, I would have responded sooner except the botting article mentioning AHK really angered me. All this bot talk is really annoying. People don't understand that Jagex wouldn't be able to fund developing this game without the bots paying memberships. Then they group things that they don't understand like AHK in with bots.

[ghjkl]

I heard using AHK makes you a moral rapist. But yeah, real nice to compare Wicked to a bot scripter.

A true bot scripter has much more skill than someone who only writes ahk scripts, so you are right in a way.

[Assume Nothing]

@Nifflin:

 

I mentioned a Bank (as well as a G.E. branch) to be added as one of the very most obvious suggestions for things to put in a Citadel...

 

However I do like the idea of being able to form Dungeoneering parties and dive into the depths of Daemonheim right there and then in your Citadel, but it might be a technical impossibility...

Perhaps we could combine our ideas, and basicly you'd Dungeoneer on your instanced world ("teleporting" from the Daemonheim portal while being in a party straight to the Base-chamber of a Dungeon)...

Exiting a Dungeon would transfer you to Daemonheim (or Clan Camp if this isn't possible) to whatever world you left for your Citadel in the first place...

 

PS: thanks for thinking along :) you're the first to properly respond to my article :)

 

The dungoneering instances are created within the world where the dungeons are hosted. So for citadels I was thinking more like after the party is created the host chooses size ect then chooses the world and all the dgers log in and the dungeon instantly starts. In the same vein people should be able to use clan wars from their citadel. Perhaps you go to the warring board, and it shows other clans open for warring where you can challenge from your citadel.

 

Also a teleport to the deep wild lever.

 

I liked you article, I would have responded sooner except the botting article mentioning AHK really angered me. All this bot talk is really annoying. People don't understand that Jagex wouldn't be able to fund developing this game without the bots paying memberships. Then they group things that they don't understand like AHK in with bots.

 

You're assuming more than what I stated - I was merely pointing out that use of scripting programs, such as with AHK, could allow players to bot, thus pursuing major bot sites is a futile effort.

 

In no way did I compare Wicked_ to a bot scripter - he merely wrote functions with the intentions of making the game less mundane without significant unfair advantage - something which I don't disagree with - so what's the problem here? What I was referring to would be scripts that allowed users to be fully autonomous.

 

Edit - I disagree, I'd say legitimate players can fund JaGex fine - it's just that we're a dying breed of players as more of us are replaced by bots when players ultimately quit out of being 'sick' of what the game has become - and that's not an exaggeration either.

[Nifflin]

You're assuming more than what I stated - I was merely pointing out that use of scripting programs, such as with AHK, could allow players to bot, thus pursuing major bot sites is a futile effort.

 

In no way did I compare Wicked -to a bot scripter - he merely wrote functions with the intentions of making the game less mundane without significant unfair advantage - something which I don't disagree with - so what's the problem here? What I was referring to would be scripts that allowed users to be fully autonomous.

 

Edit - I disagree, I'd say legitimate players can fund JaGex fine - it's just that we're a dying breed of players as more of us are replaced by bots when players ultimately quit out of being 'sick' of what the game has become - and that's not an exaggeration either.

Botters don't use AHK to script. AHK is only used the way Wicked has used it. The problem is that many people don't understand what the Wicked scripts do and mislabel them. I'm actually writing an article about AHK right now if you want to look over it. I need to send it to an editor sometime, so might as well send it to you now if that's alright.

 

As for how Jagex gets their funds. It is all speculation in the end, but there is a reason they no longer mass ban. I think it's because they are using the bots to milk RS while they frantically try to develop some other MMO but that's again just speculation.

[Assume Nothing]

You're assuming more than what I stated - I was merely pointing out that use of scripting programs, such as with AHK, could allow players to bot, thus pursuing major bot sites is a futile effort.

 

In no way did I compare Wicked -to a bot scripter - he merely wrote functions with the intentions of making the game less mundane without significant unfair advantage - something which I don't disagree with - so what's the problem here? What I was referring to would be scripts that allowed users to be fully autonomous.

 

Edit - I disagree, I'd say legitimate players can fund JaGex fine - it's just that we're a dying breed of players as more of us are replaced by bots when players ultimately quit out of being 'sick' of what the game has become - and that's not an exaggeration either.

Botters don't use AHK to script. AHK is only used the way Wicked has used it. The problem is that many people don't understand what the Wicked scripts do and mislabel them. I'm actually writing an article about AHK right now if you want to look over it. I need to send it to an editor sometime, so might as well send it to you now if that's alright.

 

As for how Jagex gets their funds. It is all speculation in the end, but there is a reason they no longer mass ban. I think it's because they are using the bots to milk RS while they frantically try to develop some other MMO but that's again just speculation.

 

I apologize - I merely assumed it would be possible to create a functional script with AHK.

 

It's easy to speculate, but when we are forced to, we lose all credibility as we have nothing to back ourselves up - it's called speculation for a reason. I think they just ban whenever they can, but the problem has grown far out of the control of JaGex's team. In the past, most bots were concentrated at Yew Trees, Lobsters, Flax, Chinchompas, and Pure Essence.

 

Those days are gone - You can see bots at almost every monster that drops bones or ashes (save bosses) - including snakes, Frost Dragons, Green Dragons, Black Demons, Aviansies, Sorceress Garden, Slayer Monsters, Dungeoneering, etc etc. It's obviously more difficult for JaGex to fight against more sophisticated scripts that's more widespread - it's so easy to slip under the radar.

 

EDIT - Oh, and many gold farmers prefer f2p accounts now that 1 dollar pins are no longer on the table

[Helm_Lardar]

If only the lady had asked Jagex precisely how they work against bots and what their long-term plans are. I'm sure they have something up there sleeve, I just hope they don't take forever to get it going.

 

Sounds like a fun day though-I'd love to go see Jagex :) .

[Assume Nothing]

If only the lady had asked Jagex precisely how they work against bots and what their long-term plans are. I'm sure they have something up there sleeve, I just hope they don't take forever to get it going.

 

Sounds like a fun day though-I'd love to go see Jagex :) .

 

You're likely to get a cliché answer from a card somewhere, which few people would take seriously anyway.

[deathlypudding]

article 1- Interesting, since I am not In a clan it was interesting to see the update from the eyes of someone in a clan. I myself felt that the effort taken in to making such a thing would have been better spent in something that everyone could access. I liked to Bob Dylan reference.

 

article 2 - It is nice to actually know that they are working on something from a non propagandated person (if that is a word).

 

artice 3 - Bots will never disappear. It is a fact and should be acknowledged by all. My belief is that most botters are just normal people who don't want to grind (as the article stated). Just give them so much content that they wouldn't need to bot to do something new...... If only it were that easy. Another sad thing that should be said is that Gold Farmers and RWT are in many cases done by people who either are in extreme poverty and/or are SLAVES (China). Unless we kill the problem from the core, something that cannot be done by code, we will never win the battle.

[Newptor]

the article about clan citidels was excellent and I think the suggestions would be good additions.

 

I should note that I'm not P2P and I've never done the clan thing.

[pal2002]

Andrew used to personally read the Tip.it Times - and have actually spoken out against a perceived defamation article long ago.

 

What would he think if he actually read it now, in particular the botting article?... I really wonder.

 

Kudos to Tip.It for continuing to be an honest player's voice - even when the cheaters' camp grows ever stronger.

[Crocefisso]

Andrew used to personally read the Tip.it Times - and have actually spoken out against a perceived defamation article long ago.

 

What would he think if he actually read it now, in particular the botting article?... I really wonder.

 

Kudos to Tip.It for continuing to be an honest player's voice - even when the cheaters' camp grows ever stronger.

Though I didn't actually contribute an article this week, I just want to thank you for your kind words, which is perhaps one of the most flattering appraisals of the Times I've ever seen. :mrgreen:

[Assume Nothing]

Andrew used to personally read the Tip.it Times - and have actually spoken out against a perceived defamation article long ago.

 

What would he think if he actually read it now, in particular the botting article?... I really wonder.

 

Kudos to Tip.It for continuing to be an honest player's voice - even when the cheaters' camp grows ever stronger.

Though I didn't actually contribute an article this week, I just want to thank you for your kind words, which is perhaps one of the most flattering appraisals of the Times I've ever seen. :mrgreen:

 

Beat me to it - it's constructive criticism, and posts like these that really motivates us to continue writing for the community.

[jaklumen]

Remove any reason that certain 'legitimate players' would ever feel the need to purchase RSGP in the first place - without a market, no supply would ever be necessary to satisfy it

 

I should have been clearer. I should have said that stricter anti-bot code would disrupt the gameplay of those players that don't bot. That statement has been made elsewhere, RS Wiki for one.

 

Anyways, it's an interesting ideal, but I think it'd be very difficult to achieve. You're essentially saying the developers should be so good, there's absolutely no incentive to cheat. Gaming... not just computer gaming, but wargaming, RPGs, minis, etc., etc., etc., there has always been cheating. I don't say that to justify it, but that trying to eliminating it 99.98% is a near impossible standard. At best you have to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator: everyone can cheat equally.

 

Here's a quick RS example: RS1/Classic has had a known problem of botting. There was an official suggestion for a little while from a J-mod... can't remember who, exactly, but essentially all players would be given the ability to alter any stat to their heart's content, similar to what a J-mod can do for testing purposes. My immediate thought is if they did that-- the game would be so severely cheapened so that the majority playing would lose any interest. It'd likely kill that branch of the game, effectively. As far as I know, the plan was never carried out.

 

the article about clan citidels was excellent and I think the suggestions would be good additions.

 

I should note that I'm not P2P and I've never done the clan thing.

 

Howdy, stranger. Long time no see. I am still around, here and there.

 

Andrew used to personally read the Tip.it Times - and have actually spoken out against a perceived defamation article long ago.

 

What would he think if he actually read it now, in particular the botting article?... I really wonder.

 

I was on Staff when that happened, and actually Tip.It got a veiled backhand in a later news release (although the fansite was never named). I've hashed out the details before and I'm not feeling plucky or defiant enough to hash them out again. (It's not purely a matter of my personal opinion, either, I backed it up with actual quotes.) Quite unfortunate, and also quite ugly, IMHO.

 

Recalling his style of writing, I wouldn't be too surprised if he might take it personally as he did then, but, again, he, Paul, and Constant left the BoD as the record stands and I think that implies that he has cut loose somewhat-- "Principal Architect" just sounds so distant, from the old title he used to have: "Lead Developer", if I remember right. And why not? He's wealthy now and is either kicking back and chillin' a bit, or he has decided to focus on other matters of personal interest. I'm totally speculating, of course.

[Assume Nothing]

Remove any reason that certain 'legitimate players' would ever feel the need to purchase RSGP in the first place - without a market, no supply would ever be necessary to satisfy it

 

I should have been clearer. I should have said that stricter anti-bot code would disrupt the gameplay of those players that don't bot. That statement has been made elsewhere, RS Wiki for one.

 

Anyways, it's an interesting ideal, but I think it'd be very difficult to achieve. You're essentially saying the developers should be so good, there's absolutely no incentive to cheat. Gaming... not just computer gaming, but wargaming, RPGs, minis, etc., etc., etc., there has always been cheating. I don't say that to justify it, but that trying to eliminating it 99.98% is a near impossible standard. At best you have to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator: everyone can cheat equally.

 

Here's a quick RS example: RS1/Classic has had a known problem of botting. There was an official suggestion for a little while from a J-mod... can't remember who, exactly, but essentially all players would be given the ability to alter any stat to their heart's content, similar to what a J-mod can do for testing purposes. My immediate thought is if they did that-- the game would be so severely cheapened so that the majority playing would lose any interest. It'd likely kill that branch of the game, effectively. As far as I know, the plan was never carried out.

 

I'd agree - it's a very ambitious proposal, but I believe it could be achieved. Even reducing the bots to 50% of what there is today would be brilliant; it allows the JaGex team to essentially double their relative productivity against bots - which shows that community that they are doing something. I don't think it would be too difficult to reduce the bot population by that much (if not more), as long as JaGex could make the 'grind' in skills not feel like a chore. As far as I know, most goldfarmers use mule f2p accounts given that $1 pins are no longer on the table (save Sorc Garden/Frosties, but they're very concentrated).

 

There's an additional perk to that too - it would attract more customers, which is all the more incentive for JaGex to do it.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Despite the seemingly lack of discussion here, I can guesstimate/report (based off of the number of people I and my clanmates have seen, while we were up in the Citadel) that some 40-50 people have had their curiosity satisfied by visiting our Citadel :)