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Refer a Friend Programme - 18 Aug 2011


PoorLepRecon
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I'd gladly have back Iddison and his Gnomecopters over Gerhard and his Refer a Friend program.

 

If Iddison resorted to these tactics straight from the start of becoming on CEO (and he did) we would have seen these sorts of updates faster, and in far greater volume. Assuming that one would have been better than the other is a bit like like the saying "The grass is greener on the other side"

 

The update sucks and there's a plethora of reasons to be mad about it, but that ain't one of them.

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But, as many people have stated, it would seem that Jagex seems to no longer care about their founding standards or principles. Which is a shame, because it's what attracted quite a few players in the first place.

That's because the people who founded the game on those principals no longer have any say on whether or not they're followed.

 

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THE place for all free players to connect, hang out and talk about how awesome it is to be F2P.

So, Kaida is the real version of every fictional science-badass? That explains a lot, actually...

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But tbh the first couple of levels are the most painful anyway so I guess it could also be a good move.

 

Feh? The first 30 lvls are the easiest in nearly every skill. The only "hard" ones are combat skills (Att, Str, Def, Range, Mage, Constitution) but they still go up quickly in the first 30 lvls.

It only takes 13,363 xp to get to 30 in any skill, even an inexperienced newb can do that in a few hours.

Being a hopeless optimist I don't use this term lightly, but I think Jagex finally, truly jumped the shark on this one.

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Irony: An amnesiac rediscovering they have an eidetic memory.

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The biggest myth is that we make money from bots. This isn't true. If we add all the money we spend on wages' date=' developing systems and lost revenue due to bots, we lose money of every single bot in game. So, even if you believe we are in it just for the money, there is no sense in us not doing our best to get rid of them all.[/quote']

 

Ha.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

Lold. How can this possibly be true? I doubt it costs more than $5 per bot to get rid of or explain.

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The biggest myth is that we make money from bots. This isn't true. If we add all the money we spend on wages' date=' developing systems and lost revenue due to bots, we lose money of every single bot in game. So, even if you believe we are in it just for the money, there is no sense in us not doing our best to get rid of them all.[/quote']

 

Ha.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

Lold. How can this possibly be true? I doubt it costs more than $5 per bot to get rid of or explain.

 

If they are expensing legal fees as part of their anti-bot budget, I could see the corporate POV... maybe.

 

 

 

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The biggest myth is that we make money from bots. This isn't true. If we add all the money we spend on wages' date=' developing systems and lost revenue due to bots, we lose money of every single bot in game. So, even if you believe we are in it just for the money, there is no sense in us not doing our best to get rid of them all.[/quote']

 

Ha.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

Lold. How can this possibly be true? I doubt it costs more than $5 per bot to get rid of or explain.

 

If they are expensing legal fees as part of their anti-bot budget, I could see the corporate POV... maybe.

 

Maybe the botmakers actually own Insight and bought out Jagex? :shock:

I'm like a hot mess, but without the alcohol.

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The biggest myth is that we make money from bots. This isn't true. If we add all the money we spend on wages' date=' developing systems and lost revenue due to bots, we lose money of every single bot in game. So, even if you believe we are in it just for the money, there is no sense in us not doing our best to get rid of them all.[/quote']

 

Ha.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

Lold. How can this possibly be true? I doubt it costs more than $5 per bot to get rid of or explain.

 

That assertion operates under the assumption that the only costs involved are directly with the bot. If I recall, Jagex still has to pay charge-back fees for memberships paid for on stolen credit cards. There's no information I've seen so far that suggests that RWT'ers have veered from this tactic since 2007, so I think it's safe to conclude that Jagex is losing out not simply because bots are subscribing, but because the monetary expense of bots subscribing to Jagex is higher than the revenue they gain from those subscribers. This isn't the only factor contributing to Jagex's expenses, but it's a pretty prominent one.

 

There are of course the costs involved to run the software that detects cheaters (simply because the software doesn't seem to be doing its job doesn't mean it's non-existent, it could simply be a very inefficient system), and the costs to pay the employees involved in that sector (research, development, and implementation of anti-cheating tactics). For as long as macroers persist, Jagex will have to keep paying expenses, and there's no indication that given the expenses we know Jagex deals with, that they they are profiting from cheaters.

 

Y'know what'd help? If Jagex published a yearly account of all its expenses, point by point. The info we have access to now I believe only tracks overall revenue and expenses. It'd be nice to get an idea of how much money (if not effort) Jagex actually spends fighting bots. And from there, whether or not Jagex loses out, or profits from bots. Say for example:

 

One column could be "Revenue gained from users of illegal third-party software" and the other could be "Expenses incurred from users of illegal third-party software" or whatever. The first two columns would be sub-divided, one division for each source of expense or revenue. For example, "CC charge-back fees" under "Expenses Incurred" would be a source of expense. The last column would be the difference between the first two columns (gain or loss). Pretty simple graph to do, no? I'm sure Jagex can supply us with the numbers.

 

Oh, and not every bot is a subscriber (and thus can contribute to Jagex's revenue). It's likely due to the sheer amount of bots, that Jagex stands to lose more from them than to gain. You think bots that pay for membership are bad? The ones in free to play don't have to and are probably much larger in number. Think about the expenses Jagex stands to incur from that group. In all, it doesn't seem likely to me that Jagex is profiting from bots given what I've said here (even if we don't have all the numbers).

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This update is epic im getting 247.5 xp per rocktail are 10% more xp on urns aswell gl me for 200m cook =)

At least one person is enjoying it... They didn't make it for nothing.

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I....don't think any company would publish numbers on their illegal third party program users.

 

If even to publish a small sample of their expenses to prove a point, I don't see why not. It's no secret that cheaters are a problem. Skeptical players talk about how Jagex doesn't realize how large the problem is. I'm sure they have an idea of it, especially with the data they have privileged access to. Quantifying the issue by releasing some numbers would stifle those claims and sow the impression that Jagex is aware as opposed to unaware of this issue.

 

To be an effective company, it makes sense for those in charge of it to be aware of the problems they face so that they can form solutions to combat these problems. The least Jagex could do to show awareness and thus diligence in this issue and restore faith in the player-base instead of parroting the same canned response about how they're dealing with bots (but never qualify their tactics beyond this claim) is to publish numbers.

 

It may not be savory for their shareholders who're looking for returns on their investment, but realistically, it wouldn't damage the company's reputation to do so as this quote seems to be implying. One, the game's condition is clearly visible to the player-base either way, and has an immediate effect on how the players perceive the company. This perception isn't new and isn't likely to change drastically over a short-period of time. To act as if publishing unsavory data is bad PR supposes that the player-base has an untainted view of Jagex easily susceptible to such negative change.

 

This is like saying:

 

"I... don't think any country would publish numbers on their incarcerated subjects."

 

Despite the fact citizens are fully aware their country houses such people and have a negative perception of them.

 

The statement is posed as if the company should be embarrassed that there are any third-party program users at all. No, that's what you'd come to expect in an MMORPG. The existence of cheaters themselves in your game isn't something to be ashamed about. How you deal with them influences your reputation, and if they're hardly dealt with, you should be ashamed. To withhold this data for fear of embarrassment simply validates the public's erroneous perception that the company isn't aware of the problem and hence this would not bode well for the company's current reputation which is already in a bad lime-light.

 

Numbers help us visualize the extent of the problem and thus help us plan an effective solution to minimize its effects. No one should feel embarrassed, or be subject to admonishment simply because they are quantifying this problem. So I reiterate that I take no issue with Jagex publishing such data to disprove the public's erroneous perception that they are unaware of the botting problem, along with supplying a sample of their expenses incurred in combating cheaters to corroborate their claims of losses.

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It's funny that Jagex says that bots cost them money. How, might I ask, do they cost you money when they make up probably near 50% of subscriptions?

 

That's like saying my full-time, 6 digit job is costing me money because I have to buy gas to get there. Stupid [bleep]s.

 

Also, that copyright team they claim to have is all busy watching YouTube and pushing claims on all videos that aren't, "Omfg! Jagex rocks and I want them to have my babies!"

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It's funny that Jagex says that bots cost them money. How, might I ask, do they cost you money when they make up probably near 50% of subscriptions?

 

That's like saying my full-time, 6 digit job is costing me money because I have to buy gas to get there. Stupid [bleep]s.

You can't possibly argue that without knowing the figures in detail. You're essentially trying to tell us that you know how long the piece of string is. You don't.

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You can't possibly argue that without knowing the figures in detail. You're essentially trying to tell us that you know how long the piece of string is. You don't.

You think that the money-oriented business practices they have currently, the board would let a section that has been useless for years stay around if they didn't make a profit. Spare us the "you don't know, Jambflex is so poor and their trying their hardest!".

If they were spending a lot of money on anti botting measures, we'd see results. Honestly? I don't even believe such a section exists, or if it does, it doesn't have enough employees to cause financial harm.

I don't think you have any idea how huge an income the bots are. If there were no bots, jagex would be bankrupt in months.

 

There are more bots online at any given time than players during school-time.

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You think that the money-oriented business practices they have currently, the board would let a section that has been useless for years stay around if they didn't make a profit. Spare us the "you don't know, Jambflex is so poor and their trying their hardest!".

If they were spending a lot of money on anti botting measures, we'd see results. Honestly? I don't even believe such a section exists, or if it does, it doesn't have enough employees to cause financial harm.

I don't think you have any idea how huge an income the bots are. If there were no bots, jagex would be bankrupt in months.

 

There are more bots online at any given time than players during school-time.

This.

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I just got a 24/H mute in GAME for spamming the middle finger ASCll art on the FORUM. I literally lold irl. Whatever happened to forum bans - I didn't do anything in game lmao.

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I just got a 24/H mute in GAME for spamming the middle finger ASCll art on the FORUM. I literally lold irl. Whatever happened to forum bans - I didn't do anything in game lmao.

 

Still the same account. If you're being a complete and utter moron on the forum then they're within their right to mute your account in game too to prevent you from being a moron there.

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You can't possibly argue that without knowing the figures in detail. You're essentially trying to tell us that you know how long the piece of string is. You don't.

You think that the money-oriented business practices they have currently, the board would let a section that has been useless for years stay around if they didn't make a profit. Spare us the "you don't know, Jambflex is so poor and their trying their hardest!".

If they were spending a lot of money on anti botting measures, we'd see results. Honestly? I don't even believe such a section exists, or if it does, it doesn't have enough employees to cause financial harm.

You're still speculating. It might be correct speculation, but you're still speculating, and an argument doesn't usually end in a satisfactory outcome when it's made through assumptions.

 

I don't think you have any idea how huge an income the bots are. If there were no bots, jagex would be bankrupt in months.

Well the only thing close to evidence we have is a statement from a moderator saying that Jagex doesn't profit on bots due to the cost of fighting them outweighing the cost of their subscription. Again, they could be talking out of context, or quite simply lying, but that really is the only thing we have to go on.

 

There are more bots online at any given time than players during school-time.

Well... thanks for that. I hadn't yet realised that when more people are working, less people are playing.

 

All I'm saying is that we don't know anything for sure, except that botting is a massive problem. You could make all these wonderful points and feel massively confident about doing so, only for them to give real evidence a few months later that completely refutes what you're saying. What do I think? I think they're lying, but I can't say for sure.

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@geekguy: A few points.

 

- If the shareholders were so aware of the player base in the first place, why would they assume that the players were going to accept these changes which go against the overall RS philosophy? I highly doubt these shareholders have been playing or spend their time in RS forums...considering how out of touch Jagex appears to be (or pretends to be, I have no idea), if their shareholders knew more about the problem than them, you would think they would have brought up these issues already. Also, I'd like to note that in times of war, countries have been typically favorable towards lying to their citizens when it comes to numbers in order to preserve their reputations, as ineffective as it has been.

 

- Historically, Jagex isn't willing to set the record straight with us, and hasn't been until it is too late to do anything about it. They prefer to use filler messages which state that they are doing something and have a multi-faceted strategy, but clearly from the outset they have been pursuing the wrong angle, and have been for YEEEEEARRRRSSS-okay you get the idea. And a game year represents a huge part of a game's lifespan! At this point I don't think they would be willing to consider an alternate solution without another pivotal event in their midst.

 

- While this fear is baseless on a reasonable level, investors as a whole can be the least reasonable people at all. When Nintendop publicly apologized for poor sales and their execs took a paycut, their stock continues to perform poorly, and overall perception did not improve. Without a clear solution to the problem, most remain unconvinced of their future performance. Jagex clearly considers this issue to be "in-house", so why would they get shareholders involved if they do not consider them to be pertinent to the issue?

 

But you are right...Jagex SHOULD be ashamed for acting like they don't need the help.

 

@ginger_warrior:

 

While we'll never know for sure of the exact numbers, at this point I'm willing to say that active bot numbers for both sides of the game outnumber, if not come close to outnumbering the actual playerbase at all hours. Jiblix's video doesn't even begin to show all of the locations for bots that I've come across. A lot of "actual players" have been botting themselves also, if not for levels, then for supplemental income.

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