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Tip.It Times - 18th September 2011


Rainy_Day

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Something about completing those terribly long grinds and achieving your goals always makes it worth it. It's a gratifying experience botters will never have.

 

I agree completely with your logic there. I quit poke'mon because (I felt) there was zero feeling of accomplishment. By using a cheating device available for $20 and chugging in a sequence of numbers and letters, any player can obtain and (mostly) freely trade the hacked items with no visible distinction between the legitimate ones and the hacked ones, if enough effort is put into it.

 

Imagine that Jagex had never fixed the duplication glitch infamously used for purple partyhats, and that it had propagated down to even low items, and further that XP glitches ran rampant. Would it be any fun? That is why I felt there was no point in continuing to play poke'mon and started playing RuneScape-it provided far more, albeit less instant, gratification.

"Fight for what you believe in, and believe in what you're fighting for." Can games be art?

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My blog here if you want to check out my Times articles and other writings! I always appreciate comments/feedback.

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Haha yeah well, seeing as Tip.it is a rather respectable forum I steered away from that path ;)

 

You're right about the long start-up as well. Although one funny thing that makes RS unique is the lack of substantial end-game. And by end-game I don't mean making a goal to get 20 mil exp in each skill. I mean actualy end-game material.

 

Even though it's 10 years now, one can still really feel the effects it has had, that Andrew and Paul had no idea where this game was going.

 

Modern players tend to be spoiled in such ways. Gaming moved from the paradigm of playing for the sake of playing to playing for the sake of accomplishment. This is all fine and good in itself, but for Runescape, the idea of community is unfortunately, a recent one. It's an MMO that for some reason, only put in guilds something like last year.

 

I used to write as a freelance writer for a few gaming websites including MMORPG.com. MMO trends and statistics were interesting to me, once. :) The stuff below is entirely personal opinion supported by a few observations.

 

 

To the guy who's been talking DOTA: HoN is basically DOTA. LoL is some sort of hybridized offspring between DOTA and a few other arena-based projects. The latter has been a commercial success because it manages to pull in a metric ton of "casual" players and moved away from the genre as a whole. The microtransaction model doesn't hurt either - something this game could possibly learn from. In terms of players: DOTA still have, AFAIK, 12-18 million players, most of which are centered and located in Asia and Europe. It's got a decent number of players built from years of popularity. League of Legends have around 11 million players, and is about a two year old. HoN has much less (~1 mil?), and is the one that really should be worried about DOTA 2.

 

Currently, the hilarious thing is that LoL is battling against WoW for the most played MMO/MPS game, and it's been winning for the last month or so. I wouldn't be surprised if it wins Golden Joystick. The reason that LoL sort of "won" over its MOBA counterparts was that they marketed their game extremely intelligently. DOTA is known for its nerd-raging hardcore denying community. League of Legends, while just as bad, basically passed itself off as something more casual and enjoyable - and it worked. 450k unique IDs watching Dreamhack streams? Not even SC2 gets that much, and that's basically a national sport in some countries.

 

The point is, advertising is king in today's gaming industry. Runescape has a few strikes against it already in its current model that all but ensure it'll never get the 20somethings with disposable income and can only settle for 8-13 yr olds who consider membership a pretty sizable fee.

 

- No big "selling" point: Jagex's marketing team isn't stupid. They understand that people my age have disposable income. Look at all the other games in its genre. LOTRO is, well, LOTR. WoW is well-known for its end-game content. Guild Wars is Guild Wars. Rifts have that unique Rift mechanic that draws in newer players. RS is unique in that the world itself is designed competently. Most of the skills and etc intermesh and create an illusionary sense of depth, and it IS sufficient to be immersive and fun. However, just how WOULD you market something like this to your average high school graduate/college student/young adult and make it look appealing when that 13 yr old just ran past you going TRUSTED dice 55x2 JOIN MAI CLAN CHAT!!1!

 

There's a difference between say, downing the Lich King, fighting a thousand-man battle for the fate of the server, or whatever the hell is going on in EVE online and say, Nex.

 

(No offense to any 13 yr olds who may be reading this. I mean no offense, but the majority of folks in your age group aren't exactly the most pleasant thing to be around in a game.)

 

- Societal stigma: My gender is irrelevant, but mentioning this game will get you some very strange looks from even the guy who spends all of his free time grinding in that new Korean-MMO-that-just-came-out-a-month-ago-and-is-so-aweseome. That image is a self-reinforcing one and one that is perpetuated by what community that exists, including this one here.

 

- Top heavy community makes it difficult to actually get into the game: Games like LoL and TF2 circumvent this due to fundamental differences in game design. Games like LOTRO and EVE has a steady group of players who actively reach out to new players. WoW has a constant influx of new recruits, ensuing that the game will more or less have new blood. Look around you today. How many of those folks running around are new lowbies (and not someone's pure) in comparison to the nearly maxed out level 100somethings? In other words, it takes additional effort for a new player to even attempt to stay in the game.

 

All of these are somewhat compensated by the fact that Jagex has worked in a simple retention mechanism (loyalty points). This in itself is probably enough to keep many who have invested enough into the game at all stages to at least keep on shelling out money. Furthermore, Runescape absolutely dominates the 8-13 yr old gaming scene, beating out Club Penguin, Neopets, and Puzzle Pirates by a significant margin.

 

I have to say that is correct college students have a bit more money to play and can buy pc/console games/microtransactions/higher game subs though cost is still a factor ...and i remember in 2008 thinking i wouldnt recommend scape to a friend(i started in 2006) I definately would not now just because of the time it takes to become a high lvl character....And time is a more significant factor the older someone is...kinda depressing that 8-13 year old thing :( but in general probably I saw lots of people playing in highschool (mainly noobs ingame but irrelevant) but the general hs population just saw it as a game thier brother played or used to play and this was 2008-2009

the older scape gets the lower its reputation go. Also WOW isnt seen as the best thing ever like it used to but yea it would still get people.

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My first thought upon comparing this game to DOTA was, we'd be all set if we could get Basshunter to sing about RuneScape.

 

Ok, the article does a good job pointing out the stigma of RS being much less complicated, therefore not as meaningful in terms of gamer street cred. I can't say that I know anyone in real life who plays runescape, but I know scores who play the other ones mentioned.

 

I am at work, and there's more I wanted to say but I will have to come back to it. But on a closing note... Puzzle Pirates is for 8-13 year olds? /wrist

 

Ok, I will amend my last statement. Those 8 year olds certainly weren't battle navigating during a blockade, or acting as an officer on a lengthy sea monster hunt. Both job requiring a lot of patience, some stellar interpersonal skills, and some good strategy.

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Do you know why college students get into competitive pokemon/dig up their old Runescape accounts/reinstall Baldur's Gate II/have parents mail them their old GBA so they could play Golden Sun II again?

 

Basically. There's a stage in life where we (those of us who don't like to have our bodies destroyed on a weekly basis at the local frat) where nostalgia is hitting us hard. Then we come back, click a few things. Plant a few trees, poke a demon or two, and go on our merry way. There's something about the things you did as a child that is magical, and Runescape is no exception.

 

I can't address everything you wrote, but the "top-heavy" problem is a good point I had not quite realized before. Although it is easy to dismiss this idea by claiming that full rune is under 150k, and food is extremely cheap or easy to obtain-how does one go about making their first 150k? I remember that after having some experience, I fished anchovies/shrimp for 100k on my level 3 account, primarily for the fishing xp, not money...it took a few hours to make 100k. (This was during the period when there was not free trade, so that the prices had not gone to zero yet.) From 100k+ it was very easy via merchanting, but how much success will a new player have with that?

 

Considering the condition of F2P... I'd say it's difficult. But this game isn't really a game until you hit P2P. Someone expressed the same frustrations on the help forums too - the only valid methods of moneymaking that is more than 500k an hour is basically through end-game stuff and boss hunting. Skillers are basically menial laborers rather than the tradesmen Jagex (may) have originally envisioned. While I don't personally disagree with the maxed-out-folks being able to make quick money, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it in itself, I can understand why some folks think that the entry barrier is a bit too high.

 

Below contain mostly incoherent personal reflections.

 

 

In my spare time, I basically hang around Lumbridge and Varrock on F2P servers and hand out odds and ends like glory amulets and rune pickaxes/hatchets. I'm aware that many folks here are against hand-outs, and I freely admit that about 6/10 of the people I help are suspicious and 90/100 will take the stuff without even a "ty" and leave. Let's just say I like to see real players have a chance against IIlIlIIiI (lv: 3) who's also furiously mining coal as we speak.

 

And sometimes you do find a few gems in the rough. The reason why I joined Tipit was because I wanted to see what RS communities were like outside of the perceived bubble. In all honesty, when I first re-subscribed, someone dropped a metric ton of stuff on me to help me out because I was a bright-eyed newbie coming back to the game after that many years. I had a good conversation - one of the only ones I've had, and found out a lot about the game from someone who probably quit at this point.

 

Yes, Moogle-knight-person-with-the-random-digit-in-your-name. Thanks for lying to me back then. I should've googled D. Claw prices and realized you didn't just give me "a cheap drop to level with lol". I'm now doing my best to repay that favor to others. I hope you're enjoying your last year of high school.

 

... And dammit. Now I suddenly feel like writing for the Times. Grr.

 

 

Strange -- I thought Runescape was more "simplistic" in gameplay because it was a Java-based browser game ... :rolleyes:

 

Many Java-based browser games (mostly defunct now) towards the early 2000s had remarkably complex systems. They were in turn squished by the "modern" MMOs in their heyday - when grind and prestige mattered most. L2 is one of the most successful examples of these player-driven MMOs with the entire end-game completely determined by player politics and server trends.

 

(And I didn't mean to bash Puzzle Pirates, but I see the kids I babysit play that quite frequently...)

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It is a terrible sign when the actual players of a game have to fight against cheating instead of the company. Anti cheating should be the base goals of an mom developer and should not be hard fought rights won by players.

I would prefer even to fail with honor than to win by cheating - Sophocles

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Do you know why college students get into competitive pokemon/dig up their old Runescape accounts/reinstall Baldur's Gate II/have parents mail them their old GBA so they could play Golden Sun II again?

 

Basically. There's a stage in life where we (those of us who don't like to have our bodies destroyed on a weekly basis at the local frat) where nostalgia is hitting us hard. Then we come back, click a few things. Plant a few trees, poke a demon or two, and go on our merry way. There's something about the things you did as a child that is magical, and Runescape is no exception.

 

I can't address everything you wrote, but the "top-heavy" problem is a good point I had not quite realized before. Although it is easy to dismiss this idea by claiming that full rune is under 150k, and food is extremely cheap or easy to obtain-how does one go about making their first 150k? I remember that after having some experience, I fished anchovies/shrimp for 100k on my level 3 account, primarily for the fishing xp, not money...it took a few hours to make 100k. (This was during the period when there was not free trade, so that the prices had not gone to zero yet.) From 100k+ it was very easy via merchanting, but how much success will a new player have with that?

 

Considering the condition of F2P... I'd say it's difficult. But this game isn't really a game until you hit P2P. Someone expressed the same frustrations on the help forums too - the only valid methods of moneymaking that is more than 500k an hour is basically through end-game stuff and boss hunting. Skillers are basically menial laborers rather than the tradesmen Jagex (may) have originally envisioned. While I don't personally disagree with the maxed-out-folks being able to make quick money, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it in itself, I can understand why some folks think that the entry barrier is a bit too high.

 

Below contain mostly incoherent personal reflections.

 

 

In my spare time, I basically hang around Lumbridge and Varrock on F2P servers and hand out odds and ends like glory amulets and rune pickaxes/hatchets. I'm aware that many folks here are against hand-outs, and I freely admit that about 6/10 of the people I help are suspicious and 90/100 will take the stuff without even a "ty" and leave. Let's just say I like to see real players have a chance against IIlIlIIiI (lv: 3) who's also furiously mining coal as we speak.

 

And sometimes you do find a few gems in the rough. The reason why I joined Tipit was because I wanted to see what RS communities were like outside of the perceived bubble. In all honesty, when I first re-subscribed, someone dropped a metric ton of stuff on me to help me out because I was a bright-eyed newbie coming back to the game after that many years. I had a good conversation - one of the only ones I've had, and found out a lot about the game from someone who probably quit at this point.

 

Yes, Moogle-knight-person-with-the-random-digit-in-your-name. Thanks for lying to me back then. I should've googled D. Claw prices and realized you didn't just give me "a cheap drop to level with lol". I'm now doing my best to repay that favor to others. I hope you're enjoying your last year of high school.

 

... And dammit. Now I suddenly feel like writing for the Times. Grr.

 

 

Strange -- I thought Runescape was more "simplistic" in gameplay because it was a Java-based browser game ... :rolleyes:

 

Many Java-based browser games (mostly defunct now) towards the early 2000s had remarkably complex systems. They were in turn squished by the "modern" MMOs in their heyday - when grind and prestige mattered most. L2 is one of the most successful examples of these player-driven MMOs with the entire end-game completely determined by player politics and server trends.

 

(And I didn't mean to bash Puzzle Pirates, but I see the kids I babysit play that quite frequently...)

yea i dont say all college students hate runescape I like it but then again i tend to enjoy the more boring games hehe.
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I grew up playing the old RPG's for the NES and SNES( and I still can't beat them!), when I found RS and realized other poeple were talking to me I was hooked.

The only reason I play is to get levels to do stuff like GWD or Clan wars, and then enjoy myself when I do play them.

 

(I'm not sure how to quate so... I'll do it an old way)

 

 

 

@ Attenuation , lol RTS lol, real gamers play shooters (and none of that auto-aim garbage on console)

 

Almost everysingle person I know play FPS, and to be honest I get sick about their call of duty stuff all the time. A good FPS I really enjoyed was the rainbow 6 for pc (I only have the really old ones, rogue spear and the original R6 but thats it)

 

The only RTS games I play are Age of Empires 3 and Empire Earth 2, I tried Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne and found the Multiplayer to be kinda junky (Campain was the only thing worth playing IMHO) I've only played Starcraft (not the 2nd one) and hated it, only thing people did was rush with Zerg or turtle and spam the battleships, but as with WOW3 the campain was fun. :rolleyes:

 

 

@ Missingno, 40 hour RPGs or gtfo.

I'm not sure if your saying a 40 hour RPG is to short or long, I vote to short though. :thumbsup: I played "Dragon Quest 9 Sentinels of the Starry Skies" and thats easily and 80+ hours, I love RPGs.

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@ Missingno, 40 hour RPGs or gtfo.

I'm not sure if your saying a 40 hour RPG is to short or long, I vote to short though. :thumbsup: I played "Dragon Quest 9 Sentinels of the Starry Skies" and thats easily and 80+ hours, I love RPGs.

Just screwing with Atten there :razz: 40 is the number that popped into my head at that time.

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@2nd Article I agree that bots, in a sense, take away from the game some. Especially when you try to train combat... :angry: But I can understand how Jagex can let them by as they are still paying the money for the membership. I'm not completely tolerable of bots, but I see it this way....it's their money. If they wanna spend the money to not even play the game let them. They're the ones missing out.

<a href="http://www.draynor.net/" title="Draynor.net Stat Signature"><img src="http://www.draynor.net/stat/rubyshatter/male/hd_firemaking_cape_emote/MaroonThePro.png" alt="Draynor.net Stat Signature

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@2nd Article I must say bots really do get annoying at times, such as the sp@mmers at the Grand Exchange or skillers. Especially when I try to go train melee and you someone that is obviously botting at any place you go :angry: But besides that, I can see why the owners of Jagex are ok with it as they are still getting the money for the membership that the botters pay for. But out of all this the ones that are really missing out are the botters themselves. Not only are they paying the membership fee, but they aren't even playing the game. They're the ones who are really missing out. Botting is not why I started playing RuneScape personally.

<a href="http://www.draynor.net/" title="Draynor.net Stat Signature"><img src="http://www.draynor.net/stat/rubyshatter/male/hd_firemaking_cape_emote/MaroonThePro.png" alt="Draynor.net Stat Signature

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@ 2nd article: the basis of your story is without fundation. Basically there are two bots:

 

1) the bots gathering gold to sell for real money (RWT)

2) the bot used by the formerly legit player who gave up grinding but still wants to get high levels.

 

Only and only if category 1) are the vast majority of the bots (which I don't see proven in your article) you have a sound basis. To me personally, the category 2) bots are far more annoying: the level 138 that is clearly botting while killing abyssal demons is competing with me on highscores, whereas the gold-bot doesn't. To me the game would become much better again if the category 2) bots would get banned systemetically at least.

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calls himself Noobz?"

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@ 2nd article: the basis of your story is without fundation. Basically there are two bots:

 

1) the bots gathering gold to sell for real money (RWT)

2) the bot used by the formerly legit player who gave up grinding but still wants to get high levels.

 

Only and only if category 1) are the vast majority of the bots (which I don't see proven in your article) you have a sound basis. To me personally, the category 2) bots are far more annoying: the level 138 that is clearly botting while killing abyssal demons is competing with me on highscores, whereas the gold-bot doesn't. To me the game would become much better again if the category 2) bots would get banned systemetically at least.

 

However, you can basically assume that the large majority of the bots which additionally came into Runescape after the Free Trade update are RWT bots - the numbers increased a lot, so yes it looks like RWT bots are the majority. Mains botting may be annoying for you, but they're not the main problem.

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Well I dunno about you but I find the mass numbers of automated characters, all of whom are now occupying all of the primary and secondary training/earning spaces to the point that every such spot, on every world, is now so thoroughly saturated with them that it has become positively fruitless to even attempt to use said spots, absolutely annoying.

 

Personally, I don't care WHY they're there, anymore. I just want them gone.

 

We've tried reporting them and were ignored.

 

We've tried competing with them and were overwhelmed.

 

We've tried killing them (where places allowed) and were assaulted by their in-game protectors.

 

We've tried complaining about them to management and have been ignored (again).

 

What's left to do?

 

Riot? :unsure:

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Am I the only one trying to figure out how someone managed to get 10gb of RAM in their computer?

 

lol I'm running 12GB DDR3 & two 6 core processors (12 Cores total).

 

Time to update?

 

Unless you want to pay the newest games on highest graphics, not worth it. I have a dualcore and 2 GB Ram, and my PC still runs any program I tried to my complete satisfaction(games like crysis too...)

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Am I the only one trying to figure out how someone managed to get 10gb of RAM in their computer?

 

lol I'm running 12GB DDR3 & two 6 core processors (12 Cores total).

 

Time to update?

 

Unless you want to pay the newest games on highest graphics, not worth it. I have a dualcore and 2 GB Ram, and my PC still runs any program I tried to my complete satisfaction(games like crysis too...)

 

Oh yeah of course it depends on what you do, you wouldn't have a hope in hell running Crysis 2 with Hi-res pack on DX11 with 2GB though.

 

The first Crysis is well over 3 years old now (feb 08?), so being able to run that isn't as special as it once was.

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Well – I dunno about you – but I find the mass numbers of automated characters, all of whom are now occupying all of the primary and secondary training/earning spaces to the point that every such spot, on every world, is now so thoroughly saturated with them that it has become positively fruitless to even attempt to use said spots, absolutely annoying.

 

Personally, I don't care WHY they're there, anymore. I just want them gone.

 

We've tried reporting them – and were ignored.

 

We've tried competing with them – and were overwhelmed.

 

We've tried killing them (where places allowed) – and were assaulted by their in-game protectors.

 

We've tried complaining about them to management – and have been ignored (again).

 

What's left to do?

 

Riot? :unsure:

 

The large number of bots suggests two things.

 

1. Many people are interested in what the bots can bring - in this case, levels. Which = prestige = e-peen for 13 yr olds = make botters feel good.

2 Secondary market of gold is strong enough for many to invest in it. See above.

 

A question to consider: What exactly is it about bots that frustrate you? The fact that they're getting stuff for free? The fact that they're leveling faster and thus, "better" than you? It's not fair that you had to "work" hard while the bots don't have to "work?"

 

What you could do is maybe perpetuate a mindset, like the author has suggested, but it's awfully hard to do in a game designed for screaming idiots who go I PK U!!!!!!!!!!111111!!!!!. You could perhaps live in the satisfaction that you may have, I dunno, swayed five people, four of which who will quit or bot behind their mighty, steely mask's back? :P

 

Or you could outcompete them. A bot is running, fundamentally, off of reflections. This means that it should still be slower than a person, no matter how agile it may be. Possibly ignore them. The question then becomes if you're willing to give up efficiency or not, isn't it?

 

Until Jagex does something, you've really exhausted all your options. We can maybe give you a hug or something, but that's about it.

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The first article seemed to be simplistically structured for a college student, but I suppose that's why he decided to pursue a career in engineering instead of writing. I found myself pausing every few words because of the overuse of commas. I suppose he went a little... commakaze?

 

 

 

Nonetheless, it was a nice read.

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