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Beliefs, Religion and Faith.


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As the most recent religion thread was created almost a year ago, I've decided to make a separate thread for it.

 

I shall admit I don't know all too much about the reasoning behind why people believe in religious deities, for I'm an agnostic atheist.

 

To sum up my view upon religion, I quote my post in 'Things that annoys the HELL out of you'

 

It's not that we don't understand at all - we choose not to believe because there is nothing there that persuades us. The Russell's teapot analogy is made to prove a point - by not being able to disprove something, it doesn't mean it's automatically proven. Whilst I acknowledge it's not quite the same - as the concept of God is supposed to be an intangible, omnipotent divine being - it merely illustrates how the defense that you can't disprove God is proof of it's existence.

 

I'm more of an agnostic atheist than anything else - I don't believe in a specific deity, but I wouldn't deny it's existence given sufficient proof. I just think it's all unknowable - which is what the concept is about; having faith in the unknown.

 

I fully respect theists who believe in something greater existing out there - it's just that many theists like to preach their beliefs and attempt to convert others, a practice which I see just as disrespectful as the way theists see atheists.

 

Please do enlighten me, and discuss.

 

EDIT - Here's a relevant link: http://forum.tip.it/topic/172416-is-god-real-post-your-thoughts/

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For me, a belief in something that we have no more than 0 solid proof in, and indeed "having faith in the unknown" is an archaic medieval thing that has been holding up science (read: facts) throughout most of history, and some would argue continues to do so today (although I'm not sure how true this is). I see how some people may turn to the idea of a heaven to deal with grief when someone dies, but this is during a time of irrationality. In general I see no logic whatsoever in believing in any book, whether it be the Bible or any other holy scripture. If I get proof I'd gladly accept the existence of a deity/deities (it wouldn't be believing any longer), but until then I'll stay as I am :). I'd be interested to hear a theists thoughts on the topic.

 

 

I'm not entirely sure there's going to be any good from this topic

This is true, many threads of this nature end up the same way.

RIP TET

 

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"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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"You cannot prove God does not exist, so therefore he does exist" is not a good argument at all.

 

I have a book which I would like to quote to give you a better understanding of why so many people are convinced God exists, but it's at home. So, I'll be ordering it on Amazon today.

 

Once I have it, though, I'd be glad to at least give you a few interesting perspectives.

 

Oh, and because the last topic on this subject should hardly be forgotten, I feel we should at least link to it: (it may be better if you put this link in the original post, Skeptic)

 

Is God real post your thoughts!

 

I'm not entirely sure there's going to be any good from this topic, but I want to show that there is reasoning behind theism.

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I feel that this is relevant

Wge7r.jpg

 

I was raised Catholic, but I'm not really religious. I do try to follow the Christian set of morals, though. Of course, I mean the actual morals talked about in the Gospels, not hating gay people for no reason (golden rule anyone?).

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"If it were possible to cure evils by lamentation..., then gold would be a less valuable thing than weeping." - Sophocles

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

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Fortunately, Catholicism doesn't advocate for hating gay people. :thumbup:

 

And I like that comic a lot. :) It really makes me just wish people could agree to disagree and just live good lives for the sake of living a happy ones.

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I fully respect theists who believe in something greater existing out there - it's just that many theists like to preach their beliefs and attempt to convert others, a practice which I see just as disrespectful as the way theists see atheists.

 

I'm pretty much the exact same way. I believe "to each his own" applies, until we get idiot extremists preaching about how wrong everyone else is.

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I fully respect theists who believe in something greater existing out there - it's just that many theists like to preach their beliefs and attempt to convert others, a practice which I see just as disrespectful as the way theists see atheists.

 

I'm pretty much the exact same way. I believe "to each his own" applies, until we get idiot extremists preaching about how wrong everyone else is.

 

Trying to convert someone is probably one of the worst things you can do in life. At least in my mind it is.

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Three months banishment to 9gag is something i would never wish upon anybody, not even my worst enemy.

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There's nothing wrong with evangelization (and by that, I mean non-condescending evangelization). If someone were atheist by truly ignorant of theistic doctrine, I would, if they were willing to listen, try to get them to rethink their position on the subject, not because I feel superior (I don't), but because they might actually be convinced. Honestly, living a Catholic lifestyle is not a bad thing; though some teachings seem stupid to people (i.e. no sex before marriage), a Catholic lifestyle is not something to be feared. If I'm able to convince someone to consider joining the Church, I feel I've done them good. If not, at least I tried and made them think a bit. Heck, I might have even done them some good, since they would now know the opposing argument better because of me.

 

I've never looked at one of the elder ladies or gentlemen who I see at mass and think, "Gosh, that lifestyle is straight up undesirable and no good comes from it." Jesus' teachings, though some are challenging, are morally good teachings. Getting someone to connect more with said teachings isn't bad at all, let alone one of the worst things you could do in life.

 

I actually prayed every night before sleep once... Damn, I feel so stupid now.

 

<_<

 

Trying to convert someone is probably one of the worst things you can do in life. At least in my mind it is.

Constructive criticism, getting someone to defend their beliefs, making them think, being a proponent of a morally good belief system - that's one of the worst things you can do in life?

 

I don't support conversion through insulting the other person's belief; hence, my above 'definition of sorts' of converting.

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Fortunately, Catholicism doesn't advocate for hating gay people. :thumbup:

The Church advocates evolution too, but there are plenty of my own family members who solemnly believe in creationism. My whole family thinks I'm a genius, a Republican, and super religious... I'm not. It kills me to nod and smile when they preach about creationism or how great Palin is. I'm more of an agnostic theist and an apathetic Libertarian these days. I love my family and all, but they can be so frustrating to associate with at times.

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"If it were possible to cure evils by lamentation..., then gold would be a less valuable thing than weeping." - Sophocles

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

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Meh, fundamentalist Christians.

 

I guess I'll say that you have to recognize that you're dealing with a Christian belief system that is so contradictory that it's impossible to defend. Again, I think Catholicism, if you really want solid, founded ideas, is the religion to look into. Just because one sect of Christians seems wacky to you (:P) doesn't mean you shouldn't look into other sects (I strongly suggest Catholicism, cause some other denominations aren't any better than fundamentalist Christianity).

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Meh, fundamentalist Christians.

 

I guess I'll say that you have to recognize that you're dealing with a Christian belief system that is so contradictory that it's impossible to defend. Again, I think Catholicism, if you really want solid, founded ideas, is the religion to look into. Just because one sect of Christians seems wacky to you (:P) doesn't mean you shouldn't look into other sects (I strongly suggest Catholicism, cause some other denominations aren't any better than fundamentalist Christianity).

What would you say are the differences between those fundamentalist Christians and Catholicism are? I'm talking about the belief things, not moral/helping people. In other words, why Catholicism?

RIP TET

 

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"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Trying to convert someone is probably one of the worst things you can do in life. At least in my mind it is.

Constructive criticism, getting someone to defend their beliefs, making them think, being a proponent of a morally good belief system - that's one of the worst things you can do in life?

 

I think he's referring to the fact that few people will actually seriously consider changing religions or beliefs, and that most "converting" just ends up in a huge argument, with both people feeling that their beliefs have been insulted. At least, from what I've seen/heard.

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Fundamentalist Christians = take the words in the Bible literally. You can see the various problems with this. If not, I suggest reading the short pamphlet on Fundamentalism written by Eugene LaVerdiere. It goes through why fundamentalism is a pastoral, social, theological, and personal problem.

 

Catholicism = inerrancy of the Bible: "the Bible solidly, faithfully and without error teaches the truth which God wanted put into sacred writings." In other words, whatever was written down, through this writing God intended to help us attain eternal life. (Dei Verbum paragraph 11, from the Second Vatican Council).

 

And I say Catholicism because it's one of the most longstanding, organized religious institutions out there, and it's Catechism is extremely detailed and... well, non-contradictory (so, well founded).

 

EDIT: Again, I clarify, I'm not trying to convert any of you. Just defending my faith. :P

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Constructive criticism, getting someone to defend their beliefs, making them think, being a proponent of a morally good belief system - that's one of the worst things you can do in life?

 

I don't support conversion through insulting the other person's belief; hence, my above 'definition of sorts' of converting.

 

I'll give some examples of what I meant:

 

1.) When a theist insists that you are blind if you don't believe that the questionable evidence provided for you is sufficient to believe a god.

2.) When an atheist draws questionable parallels, such as FSM and Santa, as a way of saying, "If you don't believe in Stupid-Ridiculous-Thing-Off-the-Top-of-My-Head-X, then you shouldn't believe god either".

 

Basically, when someone is being an unreasonable douche just to get a jab at anyone who is not accepting of their illogical means for discerning the truth annoys the hell out of me. Being a(n) theist/atheist, having thought-provoking conversation with others of different belief systems, and being understanding of those who choose to remain skeptical is completely fine. Too bad that line almost always gets crossed.

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Constructive criticism, getting someone to defend their beliefs, making them think, being a proponent of a morally good belief system - that's one of the worst things you can do in life?

 

I don't support conversion through insulting the other person's belief; hence, my above 'definition of sorts' of converting.

 

I'll give some examples of what I meant:

 

1.) When a theist insists that you are blind if you don't believe that the questionable evidence provided for you is sufficient to believe a god.

2.) When an atheist draws questionable parallels, such as FSM and Santa, as a way of saying, "If you don't believe in Stupid-Ridiculous-Thing-Off-the-Top-of-My-Head-X, then you shouldn't believe god either".

 

Basically, when someone is being an unreasonable douche just to get a jab at anyone who is not accepting of their illogical means for discerning the truth annoys the hell out of me. Being a(n) theist/atheist, having thought-provoking conversation with others of different belief systems, and being understanding of those who choose to remain skeptical is completely fine. Too bad that line almost always gets crossed.

That makes two of us, then.

 

Also, is there any way I can upload a PDF to the internet so I can link it to you guys? Cause I have a PDF saved on my computer, but I don't know how I'd get it so you can view it, too.

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Fundamentalist Christians = take the words in the Bible literally.

Catholicism = inerrancy of the Bible: "the Bible solidly, faithfully and without error teaches the truth which God wanted put into sacred writings." In other words, whatever was written down, through this writing God intended to help us attain eternal life.

 

They sound identical, apart from whenever something you believe is contradicted by science you cease to believe it, while Fundies don't. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

RIP TET

 

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"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text). ~Dei Verbum, paragraph 11

 

Catholics support a variety of interpretations of the Bible. They reject that every single word should be interpreted literally. The difference is that interpretations of the Bible must ultimately be used for the above. The Bible is God revealed for the purpose of salvation (the ultimate good), available to all (universal salvific will). The conclusions of some interpretations that are contradictory to other Church doctrine (for the Church is made up of both Scripture and Tradition) and that really, if enacted and carried out, would do no good to society, such as that it is correct to stone a woman who has committed adultery, are not supported.

 

Basically, the Church supports all types of interpretation (be it liberation theology, feminist theology, etc); however, the Church may not agree with certain the conclusions made from said interpretations.

 

Make sense?

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Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text). ~Dei Verbum, paragraph 11

 

Catholics support a variety of interpretations of the Bible. They reject that every single word should be interpreted literally. The difference is that interpretations of the Bible must ultimately be used for the above. The Bible is God revealed for the purpose of salvation, available to all (universal salvific will). The conclusions of some interpretations that are contradictory to other Church doctrine (for the Church is made up of both Scripture and Tradition) and that really, if enacted and carried out, would do no good to society, such as that it is correct to stone a woman who has committed adultery, are not supported.

 

Basically, the Church supports all types of interpretation (be it liberation theology, feminist theology, etc); however, the Church may not agree with certain the conclusions made from said interpretations.

 

Make sense?

So it is morals presented through the figure of a deity? I'm all for the morality part of it, I personally don't find the deity part of it all very necessary.

RIP TET

 

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"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Then we come across the question of where these morals come from. They're in all of us (with the exception of psychologically unstable people, I guess).

 

For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

 

It's really a tough question, since we can only assume that those first human beings had morals themselves. We have some sort of universal conscience from the beginning of our lives, something that no other being has (no other known being, for all you alien believers out there, :P): why, and from where? The Church associates God with this (as seen above).

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