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Surely everyone, as you said, have these morals, and so Catholicism is just.. thanking your deity for giving them to us? They came to us with the power of rational thinking, which evolved in the process of evolution.

RIP TET

 

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"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Catholicism is not just thanking God for giving them to us. As you say, we have rational thinking, we come up with out own values, groups come up with their own ethics; all have some sort of moral hidden beneath them, but we try to justify why one is an exception or whatever. Abortion, the death penalty, any of those subjects - the teaching authority of the Church, that is, the Magisterium, is there to interpret the Word of God for the world; to provide their position and (if they're using Scriptural and Biblical teaching to do so, which they do), God's position on such issues.

 

The Church is seen as necessary because Catholics see salvation as communal; it involves all of humanity, the overcoming of the alienation between God and humanity. Christianity/Catholicism can only be experienced within a community. This shows that our relationship to God is dependent on our relationship to other humans. And, once again, the Church believes in the universal salvific will; it strives to lead everyone to salvation.

 

And proving that rational thinking was the result of evolution is just as murky as proving God exists, if I'm not mistaken.

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Leviticus 25:44-46

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

 

Exodus 21:2-6

2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years ; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3 "If he comes alone, he shall go out alone ; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 "If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. 5 "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children ; I will not go out as a free man,' 6 then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl ; and he shall serve him permanently.

 

Exodus 21:7-11

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

 

Exodus 21:20-21

20 Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

 

Ephesians 6:5

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

 

1 Timothy 6:1-2

1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that Gods name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves.

 

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

 

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife

 

Ecclesiastes 7:26

I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare.

 

 

If we listen to one part of the bible, mustn't we listen to the others? If the bible is a "good book", why does it approve of (that is, gives guidelines for acting out and therefore does not disapprove of it) slavery? Why does it say that women are not equal to men, that they are less worthy or what have you? Why does it say to punish a girl who did not cry out while being raped?

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And proving that rational thinking was the result of evolution is just as murky as proving God exists, if I'm not mistaken.

Evolution created what we are today, that is science not a belief.

RIP TET

 

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"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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You do know that the Bible is a work of history, yes? It may not be historically accurate, but like any piece of work, it displays the societal norms at the time.

 

I'm not going respond to all of your Bible verses (interestingly enough, they all come from the Old Testament, and most are from a time before 1000 BC). For one, you take all these verses out of context, to be honest. Leviticus was a set of written rules given to the Hebrews because the ten commandments didn't seem to be getting to their heads. And you don't even look at the larger picture (the Exodus as a whole, what does this teach?).

 

Your post is the perfect example of one who is looking at the Bible from a modern day perspective, without taking into account cultural differences. And, did you even both to look up what the Church says on each of these verses? Like I have said before, the Church is made up of Scripture and Tradition. I'll bet you anything the Magisterium does not teach that the punishments you listed in your verses aren't allowable.

 

Your post verges on fundamentalism. We don't 'believe what the Bible says' in the sense that we take it literally. The Bible is a 'good book' because the Church's interpretations of it are for our ultimate salvation. So do some research (you had time to find all those verses, you'll have plenty of time for research), and you'll notice that the Church never interprets these verses literally.

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And proving that rational thinking was the result of evolution is just as murky as proving God exists, if I'm not mistaken.

Evolution created what we are today, that is science not a belief.

Enlighten me: how does one evolve to have rational thinking? When I think of evolution, I think of physical characteristics. :\

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No, that is not what I'm saying. Those parts are useful for understanding why other things are written in the Bible, for one. To be honest, stoning wasn't a huge deal back in those days. Culture changes. What we can learn from it involves looking at the bigger picture (writing these examples off the top of my head): what does Leviticus tell us about the state in which God's people were in, how did that affect future events?

 

I am saying we are not to interpret them literally, as correct, moral actions.

 

EDIT: I'm not a Biblical scholar, but I'm sure with a bit of searching you could find out what the Church does say about verses like the ones you posted.

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I used to be really religious. I tried living my life by the book. As i understood religion, and as we are told in church, if you life your life by the book (Bible) good thing will come your way. I was in church every Sunday morning and Sunday evening from the age of 11 to the age of 16. I did charity work for the church. We donated out 1/10th and more, whenever we could. I would pray countless times each day. I would be called a "jesus-freak" at school now and then. Things went the way they would normally go. Then about when i was 13 my dad lost his job. Company had to downsize and seeing as he was one of the newest employees there, he got cut first. We saw that as a test of faith. Then my dad worked here and there on and off for about 3 years. We were so deep in dept, you could not even begin to understand. Still my parents it as a test of faith, i saw it as "god" taking the piss. Few weeks later my dad got offered a job in Qatar. Things started going well blah blah blah. My parents were firm believers that it was god finally giving them what they deserve. My dad studied his ass off for 5 years to get his degree. He grew up on a farm and had to put himself thought university. You give god the credit for that? No, it was not god giving us what we deserve, it was my dad finally getting to where he's always wanted to be. No god helped hi get there.

 

My point is that why would a go that created us to his own image, created us to be happy, live our lives, etc. put us through so much pain and hurt before giving us some happiness? Is it some kind of game? Why do we get threatened that if we do not serve him, we go to hell. I thought we had free will. Should we not be allowed in heaven if we lived a good life regardless of whom we served?

And then we get to the next point. AIDS, deformed children, poverty, rape, murder, theft. If this god is so good and so great, why not punish those who ruin the lives of his children? Does he like to see us get hurt? Or is he actually so pathetic that he NEEDS criminals to hurt us so we would go running to him.

 

I gave up on religion the day i realised that believing in a god put so many limits on life as a teenager/young adult that life was just not fun. And ever since then my life could not have been better. I didn't really need to dig into the whole science vs. faith thing to realise that, although i wish i had because maybe then things would have been clearer a bit sooner.

 

Also, i feel the whole religious things takes away a lot of self-gratification. A lot of my friends back in South Africa are christians. Whenever something good happens to them you'd see a status in FaceBook saying "God is so good. He made X happen/He let me get X" or whatever.Do those people not realise that had it not been for THEMSELVES and THEIR OWN hard work they would have never gotten there? I pitty them. Thanking a figment of their imaginations for their achievements.

 

Then there's also the whole Muslim suicide bombing thing. People running into buildings with bombs strapped around their waste claiming that it was the will of Allah.

Now that just speaks for itself. Do we really want to believe in a God that is willing to sacrifice the lives of millions of innocent people just to make his point. I smell a power hungry animal.

 

All of what i have said now are just examples from the modern day. There are plenty more examples in the bible that suggest that god is petty and power hungry.

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Honestly, as ignorant as it is, i don't care when it was formed nor how it was formed. All i know is that i'm here now. I shouldn't have to care about how i got here or who put me here. If god wants his life back, he's more than welcome to take it back.

 

I'm not really interested in physics or science at all, so i've never cared to find out how or when the earth was formed.

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Honestly, as ignorant as it is, i don't care when it was formed nor how it was formed. All i know is that i'm here now. I shouldn't have to care about how i got here or who put me here. If god wants his life back, he's more than welcome to take it back.

 

I'm not really interested in physics or science at all, so i've never cared to find out how or when the earth was formed.

 

Well, that's certainly... blunt. But I was asking Duff :razz:

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And proving that rational thinking was the result of evolution is just as murky as proving God exists, if I'm not mistaken.

Evolution created what we are today, that is science not a belief.

 

You really need to take some sociology classes, buddy.

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Honestly, as ignorant as it is, i don't care when it was formed nor how it was formed. All i know is that i'm here now. I shouldn't have to care about how i got here or who put me here. If god wants his life back, he's more than welcome to take it back.

 

I'm not really interested in physics or science at all, so i've never cared to find out how or when the earth was formed.

 

Well, that's certainly... blunt. But I was asking Duff :razz:

Oh snap i didn't see Duff sneak in a post before me, while i was writing my essay :P

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I'll jump in here. I'm technically Catholic (Baptized, Confirmed, etc.), it's just that my family happens to believe some especially crazy [cabbage]. You see a major difference between Catholic and Protestant beliefs, because most Protestants use the not-even-close-to-a-proper-translation King James Version of the Bible. That's the one that went from Aramaic/Hebrew to Greek to Latin to French to German to Middle English or some nonsense along those lines. Not to mention that Luther literally removed verses and whole books from the Bible simply because he didn't like them. The current version of the Catholic Bible is usually Latin to the vernacular (in my case, the New American Version).

 

Also,

Matthew 5:17- Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

Basically, this means that Jesus' teachings (see below) are more important than some crazy laws from Leviticus.

Matthew 7:12- Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets.

We can deduce from this that it is more important to treat everyone with dignity as equals than to kill someone for being the way that God made them.

 

Anyway, sola scriptora (belief created by Martin Luther that the Bible alone is the rule for decisions and doctrine) doesn't make any logical sense to begin with. First of all, nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the only source of the faith (considering all the books were collected in like 325 AD). Secondly, who gets to interpret the meaning? You all know as well as I that millions of interpretations of the Bible exist. Third, who gave Luther authority to decide from the Bible that some Traditions of 1500 years should be cast out? Himself. Fourth, sola scriptora is unbiblical.

1 Tim 3:15- But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

2 Thess 2:15- Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

1 Cor 11:2- I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

1 Thess 2:13- And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from hearing us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe.

 

I'm going to have to go out on a limb here and assume that the Church (est. 33 AD) has a little more weight than the Bible (est. 325 AD) in its interpretation. In addition, we all know that Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter. From there, there has been an unbroken line of successors to Peter as Popes, so as much as you all hate Benedict XVI, he still has authority. Since he was forced to be a part of the Hitler youth as all German children were, he must be a Nazi. Since he stuck up for priests that were later proven innocent (not the ones who were guilty), he must be a pedophile himself. Makes perfect sense.

 

I'm not trying to defend any fairy tales here, but if you're going to criticize something into the ground, at least know what you're criticizing.

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"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

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I used to be really religious. I tried living my life by the book. As i understood religion, and as we are told in church, if you life your life by the book (Bible) good thing will come your way. I was in church every Sunday morning and Sunday evening from the age of 11 to the age of 16. I did charity work for the church. We donated out 1/10th and more, whenever we could. I would pray countless times each day. I would be called a "jesus-freak" at school now and then. Things went the way they would normally go. Then about when i was 13 my dad lost his job. Company had to downsize and seeing as he was one of the newest employees there, he got cut first. We saw that as a test of faith. Then my dad worked here and there on and off for about 3 years. We were so deep in dept, you could not even begin to understand. Still my parents it as a test of faith, i saw it as "god" taking the piss. Few weeks later my dad got offered a job in Qatar. Things started going well blah blah blah. My parents were firm believers that it was god finally giving them what they deserve. My dad studied his ass off for 5 years to get his degree. He grew up on a farm and had to put himself thought university. You give god the credit for that? No, it was not god giving us what we deserve, it was my dad finally getting to where he's always wanted to be. No god helped hi get there.

 

Your parents firmly believe that God is very present in their lives. The Church does not condone this. But it does not state it as fact. We will never be able to be certain where God has influenced things and where he hasn't. Just because your parents believe that God helped them get there, doesn't mean you have to (and you don't); what you shouldn't do is assume that the Church says everything good that happens in the world is God's direct doing.

 

My point is that why would a go that created us to his own image, created us to be happy, live our lives, etc. put us through so much pain and hurt before giving us some happiness? Is it some kind of game? Why do we get threatened that if we do not serve him, we go to hell. I thought we had free will. Should we not be allowed in heaven if we lived a good life regardless of whom we served?

The Church does not say those who are not Catholic/Christian will not go to heaven. Also, if you understood what the Church teaches when it comes to Hell, you'd understand more clearly: Hell is the absence of God's love. Those in Hell knowingly reject God. Of course, we don't know exactly how things will play out when we die, but Hell is only reserved for those who reject God, who absolutely do not wish to be near his love. This explains why there are, we can infer, so few people in Hell. I can't remember the exact wording, nor where it came from, but doctrine says something like, "There are more people in Hell than there should be;" yet, when we see this from the point of view of an omnibenevolent God, even one person in hell is more than there should be, because God wishes salvation for everyone.

 

And then we get to the next point. AIDS, deformed children, poverty, rape, murder, theft. If this god is so good and so great, why not punish those who ruin the lives of his children? Does he like to see us get hurt? Or is he actually so pathetic that he NEEDS criminals to hurt us so we would go running to him.

 

The question of theodicy is a very difficult concept to reconcile. If you're looking for a theological explanation for it, I can give you one. But often times that doesn't help to soothe people's emotions. So I suggest you look at the book Naming the Silences: God, Medicine, and the Problem of Suffering by Stanley Hauerwas. I read it in a day, and it has a central idea that is very thought provoking.

 

I gave up on religion the day i realised that believing in a god put so many limits on life as a teenager/young adult that life was just not fun. And ever since then my life could not have been better. I didn't really need to dig into the whole science vs. faith thing to realise that, although i wish i had because maybe then things would have been clearer a bit sooner. Also, i feel the whole religious things takes away a lot of self-gratification. A lot of my friends back in South Africa are christians. Whenever something good happens to them you'd see a status in FaceBook saying "God is so good. He made X happen/He let me get X" or whatever.Do those people not realise that had it not been for THEMSELVES and THEIR OWN hard work they would have never gotten there? I pitty them. Thanking a figment of their imaginations for their achievements.

 

Is the good always the easiest? Is losing weight easy? Is becoming really good at something (anything, sports, education-wise) an easy path? No one said believing in God was going to be this wonderful, unchallenging road. I just think not believing in God because of the limits on young adults (can't have sex before marriage, for example) is poor judgement. Again, people like to attribute the good things in the world as God's presence, because God is good in Godself. You can have a totally different religious imagination when it comes to God.

 

Then there's also the whole Muslim suicide bombing thing. People running into buildings with bombs strapped around their waste claiming that it was the will of Allah.

Now that just speaks for itself. Do we really want to believe in a God that is willing to sacrifice the lives of millions of innocent people just to make his point. I smell a power hungry animal.

 

All of what i have said now are just examples from the modern day. There are plenty more examples in the bible that suggest that god is petty and power hungry.

First off, the Muslim Allah, specifically the one believed in by those terrorists and suicide bombers who claim to be doing God's work, is definitely not the same God as the Catholic God. Secondly, like I've been saying, the Bible is not to be interpreted literally. So whatever examples you found that suggest God is petty and power hungry, I suggest you take into context the culture of that time, and also modern day Catholic doctrine on the subject.

 

As for Nom, I believe the Earth was formed billions of years ago. I'm not a creationist. This doesn't mean the creation stories do not serve a purpose.

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I am a hard-line atheist, although I am far more concerned with religious freedom than most people. For example, I opposed France's burqa/niqab ban, Switzerland's minaret ban, and any [cabbage] laws in America trying to ban "Sharia law." On the flip side of that, I oppose ANY public funds going to religious charities or faith-based groups, as it is an endorsement of religion by the state. America might have separation of church and state on paper, but many things we do in practice violate that statute.

 

Along those lines, I also detest people like Sam Harris, and I believe him to be a bigot. He has called for indiscriminate war crimes to be committed on Muslim countries, and I'm not a fan of his nonsensical books on morality. I'm not much of a fan of Hitchens due to his neo-colonialist mentality and endorsement of perpetual and permanent warfare, but he is one of my inspirations to be true to who I was. I grew up in an Evangelical Christian household with people who believe the Earth is 10,000 years old, and reject the theory of natural selection. I didn't "come out" as an atheist until I was 19, and before I left for college I pretended to be an Evangelical. Their bigotry towards other Christians -- Catholics, specifically -- Muslims, Mormons and gays also shaped many of my beliefs. I also listened to George Carlin ever since I was 10 years old, and he had a large influence on my thinking when it came to questioning authority and religion.

 

I would say my beliefs are more like PZ Myers, and I respect him very much. In that respect, there is nothing you could present me -- no evidence -- where I would believe that God or Gods are real. Especially with the recent research concerning multiple universes, Hawking's theories on the early universe, quantum mechanics, the evidence that you CAN "get something from nothing" and that the same object can be in two places at once leads me to believe that there is no need for a God; with no need, why insert one into the picture?

 

edit: One final thing: the last thing that leads me to my atheism is that I really and honestly do not care if God exists or not. This is a natural world, and the idea of God doesn't really come up unless some religious person brings it up (or tries to get the state to back their project).

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I would say my beliefs are more like PZ Myers, and I respect him very much. In that respect, there is nothing you could present me -- no evidence -- where I would believe that God or Gods are real. Especially with the recent research concerning multiple universes, Hawking's theories on the early universe, quantum mechanics, the evidence that you CAN "get something from nothing" and that the same object can be in two places at once leads me to believe that there is no need for a God; with no need, why insert one into the picture?

You should watch some of the debates between Hawkings and Fr. Spitzer.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1cy3iCrxic

 

Just something you might find interesting.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AdKEHzmqxA

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I would say my beliefs are more like PZ Myers, and I respect him very much. In that respect, there is nothing you could present me -- no evidence -- where I would believe that God or Gods are real. Especially with the recent research concerning multiple universes, Hawking's theories on the early universe, quantum mechanics, the evidence that you CAN "get something from nothing" and that the same object can be in two places at once leads me to believe that there is no need for a God; with no need, why insert one into the picture?

You should watch some of the debates between Hawkings and Fr. Spitzer.

 

Why should I watch a debate between a priest and one of the most influential theoretical physicists on Earth?

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I'd like to hear an atheist's view on faith, on both religious faith and non religious faith.

 

Whilst I personally don't have faith in a deity, I do have an ounce of faith in most of humanity's desires - to create a better world, for the greater good.

 

What about you, Duff?

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I'd like to hear an atheist's view on faith, on both religious faith and non religious faith.

 

Whilst I personally don't have faith in a deity, I do have an ounce of faith in most of humanity's desires - to create a better world, for the greater good.

 

What about you, Duff?

 

My opinion (me being an agnostic athiest, not believing in any deities but willing to accept existence if actual evidence were provided) on faith is that it is illogical. Faith is believing in something you have no evidence for. If it makes you feel more secure or whatever, go for it, but do realize and acknowledge that there is no evidence if there really isn't.

 

Edit: I'll write more/edit this after dinner.

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I believe religious faith is a device us humans have created to comfort us in our times of grief, fear, and anger.

"Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata... hiding amongst the candy... hoping the kids don't break through with the stick." - Master Tang

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