Tip.It Times - 9th October 2011

[Cowman_133 22]

Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

 

I'd like to remind people of the rules pertaining to Times threads:

 

[hide=Read these rules before posting in this thread]

Rampant flame wars have taken control of virtually every week's times discussion topics. The following guidelines must be followed when posting on this topic. Posts that ignore these guidelines will be removed.

 

1. You are invited and welcome to express like or dislike on articles and a particular author's writing style. It is not acceptable, however, to flame or personally insult an author. Posts that aren't anything but an attack will be removed from the topic.

 

2. Spelling and grammar errors can be reported to tripsis by PMing her and they will be fixed promptly. It is not necessary to post them on the discussion topic.

 

3. Off topic posts that do not discuss the content of that week's articles will be removed. This is not the place to discuss the direction of the times, how much you love or hate the times, etc. Off topic posts will be removed.

 

By keeping within these guidelines, Times discussion topics will mean more for the Panel and Administration than just a place for flame wars. Flame wars do not provide any useful feedback to the Times, which is mainly what we're aiming for with these topics: feedback.

 

This policy is effective as of now, November 17, 2010. Any posts prior to the creation of this policy may or may not be removed according to the new guidelines.

[/hide]

 

When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

 

If you spot any typos or mistakes in the article then please PM them to @tripsis :)

 

Enjoy the articles!

[K4ylan 0]

No DYK this week?

[Hamtaro 10]

No DYK this week?

There should be one shortly.

[Jonanananas 33]

I don't really have any comment on the first article..

 

Second one: Almost fully agree. Arguing that Runescape takes more skill than a lot of other games is just stupid, imo. It simply doesn't...but not every game has to be about skill. Runescape is pretty much unique, for me at least, and I play it for what it is instead of vainly trying to justify it to other people who don't like it.

 

 

Fictional: Meh...I loved the first one...but the second and the third one are nothing new...It's just carrying on, stretching on with nothing much that makes me interested.

[Kirschen 148]

Loved the Ugly Duckling article the most. It made me realize how much I improved in maturity, awareness of others, and even developed my sense of grammar importance through simply conversations alone. Needless to say, I never realized how much of a farcry I was from my 10-11 year old self who first made the account in December 2003.

 

Two thumbs up.

[Andregiant 0]

Loved the 1st article. It made a point.

 

2nd one was kind of Blah Blah

 

 

Just my opinion. No offense.

[Alg 2522]

Re: Why Most Gamers...

- I haven't seen many other RPGs that scale hit points to gear. They instead have gear take some of the damage or they have hear make you harder to hit.

 

-I'm pretty sure D&D and games derived from it use avoidance, and tank characters just have high constitution. Other games combine avoidance and defense - Rogues get to avoid every hit, but can't take the few that do land, while armored characters are going to get hit by everything, but can take it.

 

- Plenty of PC RPGs are built around auto-attacking - Look at any fantasy game that BioWare has ever made, chances are they still show up on a list of must-play games. Others are built around very simple combat - The Witcher's (First one) combat is just timing your hits correctly, and Fable's is spam clicking and maybe switching combat styles. Complexity doesn't necessarily mean quality.

 

- Min-Maxing again goes back to D&D, and it's basically the only way to play a Bethesda RPG. It's nothing new, and it's usually discouraged by rewarding players that don't do it - Think about everything that pures can't get access to. In tabletop games, the GM does the same thing.

 

- Most of the examples are from RTS games. Runescape is an (MMO)RPG, and the two genres are apples and oranges.

[RussetAlpha 0]

No joke, everyday when I come home, I always look forward to get on Skype and talk to my Tip.it friends.

 

Guys, ilu, don't leave. Ever. Never ever ever ever ever <3: <3:

[Phox1515 0]

I loved that last bit in the disclaimer on the first articles rs coupon... "or any excessive release of toxic fumes or gases" hahaha. that was funny and made lol in real life

[Sona 0]

No comment on the second article. :rolleyes:

 

As for the first one...

 

Can't we just say we like to play a game because it's entertaining?

 

People enjoy Runescape because it's a game. People like the feeling of achievement not because it's educational or practical, but rather because we get a shot of neurotransmitters into our heads everytime we achieve a goal we've set for ourselves. People like their friends online because we are social creatures and we enjoy each other's company, and online friendships can supply (to the extent in which it is allowed) what we need in real-life interactions.

 

This is why I disagree mostly with the first perspective, because it could easily be interpreted as effort justification. This is when we convince ourselves that the amount of time we've spent on a game (or anything, for that matter) is actually worth our time, health, and money. I think while the intent of the author may have been good, I could think of a hundred things that would serve an individual better if they were actually trying to cultivate those values.

 

There are exceptions for everything, of course, and I will gladly eat my hat to see a CEO or Nobel Prize winner or Politician attribute their successes to lessons learned while playing Runescape.

 

(Which... surprisingly enough, I wonder why the author didn't comment on guilds. Guilds on MMORPGs are basically analogous to job applications, and in many, many aspects it is exactly the same as having a job.)

[Phox1515 0]

Just read the 2nd article... makes a lot of sense.

 

I am one of those people who points out to other that i understand runescape is on a whole diff tier from games like WoW, however I have played runescape for 7 years now, I enjoy it, it's cheap and doesn't ask a lot out of me or my computer to enjoy it. I also like to point out the $5.95 price I pay (yeah I had a membership lapse that caused me to lose the $5 price)

 

I want to thank the writer for helping me figure out the name of a song I sung in choir back in 6th grade. I could not remember the name and that saying in the last paragraph reminded me so I googled it and typed the word lyrics and found it... been looking for gosh... soo long... longer than i have been playing runescape.

[Hamtaro 10]

No comment on the second article. :rolleyes:

 

As for the first one...

 

Can't we just say we like to play a game because it's entertaining?

 

People enjoy Runescape because it's a game. People like the feeling of achievement not because it's educational or practical, but rather because we get a shot of neurotransmitters into our heads everytime we achieve a goal we've set for ourselves. People like their friends online because we are social creatures and we enjoy each other's company, and online friendships can supply (to the extent in which it is allowed) what we need in real-life interactions.

 

This is why I disagree mostly with the first perspective, because it could easily be interpreted as effort justification. This is when we convince ourselves that the amount of time we've spent on a game (or anything, for that matter) is actually worth our time, health, and money. I think while the intent of the author may have been good, I could think of a hundred things that would serve an individual better if they were actually trying to cultivate those values.

 

There are exceptions for everything, of course, and I will gladly eat my hat to see a CEO or Nobel Prize winner or Politician attribute their successes to lessons learned while playing Runescape.

 

(Which... surprisingly enough, I wonder why the author didn't comment on guilds. Guilds on MMORPGs are basically analogous to job applications, and in many, many aspects it is exactly the same as having a job.)

It wasn't exactly my intent to say that someone would dedicate their entire life's achievements to RuneScape. It was referring to those of us who grew up with the game and would be kidding themselves if they believed that they walked away from RuneScape having gained nothing other than mindless entertainment for X years. I didn't comment on clans seeing as I haven't been a part of a real one since 2007 and it was an overall negative experience for me. My perspective on this isn't intended to be perfect or complete, but rather a reminder that the game isn't just a worthless waste of time. I don't play RuneScape because it's beneficial, I play because I enjoy it.

 

I know for a fact that you are correct in saying there would be far better things to do to acquire those lesson, but how many kids (not to be confused with teens or young adults) would gain those lessons from anything but a game? More likely than not, there would be no one without a strict parent structuring their every move in life. I happened to be blessed with trusting parents and I have yet to betray their trust. Perhaps you are correct that my perspective is skewed - everyone else has some tyrannical parents but me? I'm inclined to believe that isn't the case and I have accomplished what I intended to write about :-P.

[Pinata 42]

First article. I tend to stay away from the higher level communities because they think being pro at RS makes them better at life in general, not all but most. I get what you're saying though, once you get scammed you're less likely to fall for it a second time, and grinding for hours, can be compared to repetition like jobs. Sometimes though, I think people play Runescape too seriously, I've never personally skipped out on friends/family to play RS, or any game for that matter. For some reason the elitests of RS, get all the lower levels in the mindset that they need to grind for hours to be decent at RS, then those same high levels complain about how everything is so easy, and they see more and more high levels everyday. You can have fun killing players/monsters in rune/dragon instead of bandos, you might die everytime though. I guess what I'm saying is that RS should be played for entertainment, and really shouldn't be played just to fulfill sense of accomplishment.

 

The second article, I agree that most games are more complex and require more skill than RS, but like a person said above comparing games that take skill vs games that take time, is like comparing oranges to apples. I do agree that the RNG is a downside to Rs, and I think PvP in Rs should be more about skill, rather than being rich/high level or getting lucky with claw specs.

[Ring_World 753]

The second article was the most beautiful thing ive ever read. That sums up what ive said about this game for years and why theres so many bots.

[Alg 2522]

The second article was the most beautiful thing ive ever read. That sums up what ive said about this game for years and why theres so many bots.

There's just so much he got wrong about other games though. I mean, even [bleep]ing D&D has avoidance based combat and health that doesn't scale to your gear, and it's probably the game that invented min-maxing. It makes it worse when you think that there are so many other things about the game that he could have said to prove the same point - the fact that there really are no limits to what you can do with a character's stats and feats, how you have more than one option for endgame gear, how classes all have strengths and weaknesses... :wall:

 

I mean, he specifically mentions tabletop games near the end, many of which are played with a die, and a dice roll does the same thing as an RNG. Let alone the fact that hundreds of other games use one to determine more than hits and misses.

 

I read it thinking that he had no idea what he was talking about. Sure, he has a point about how RS doesn't require skill, but he goes about it in the worst possible way. And he [bleep]ing compares an MMO to a RTS game to prove it #-o

[Crossed_Body 3]

The second article is the most pointless one I've read so far.

 

It's nothing but a statement of the obvious. And the comparison of MLG to runescape is the icing on the cake.

 

 

I agree in most part with the author on the first article, it was a nice read.

[Hamtaro 10]

I just thought that the second article didn't give any consideration to the casual gamer. Seems like he assumed that all gamers are gaming in almost all of their free time. Granted, I've practically quit video games altogether, so I am biased on this.

 

I've heard a lot of talk from my PC gamer friends about how consoles will be dead in a few years and everyone will exclusively be using PCs for gaming. I couldn't disagree with this more over the fact that most gamers are casual gamers and these casual gamers want simplicity (hence, the popularity of FIFA, Madden, and Call of Duty over quality games). RuneScape is, in essence, simple. You don't have to upgrade your graphics card yearly to play it. You don't have to feel obligated to play thousands of other games because there's so much content packed into one familiar environment. You're familiar with the content and those you enjoy it with. RuneScape is intended to be a casual and social game. It's the same reason why I'm inclined to facepalm when I see someone who has played for only 6 months match almost everything I've done in my 7.5 years.

[NukeMarine 47]

In response to the second article. I'll be honest, if there were a magical way to re-do RS's combat and experience system to account for the ability of the current system to handle the data, I'd be all for it. Problem is, we know the game has tons of legacy issues that just cannot be fixed.

 

Imagine if the HP skill was 4xp for every point of damage you healed with food or potions. In fact, you'd need a higher HP in order to be allowed to eat higher level food. Or DEF where you gained xp by avoiding getting hit based in part on your opponents chance of hitting you and it's max damage. Or Magic skill that's split in two so there combat magic skill (Wizardry) and non-combat magic skill (Mage). Remove rares, revamp weapon and armor creation to take more time but offer more xp. Remove the alchemy spell. Remove the protect prayers or seriously downgrade them. All can be considered legit ideas, but cannot be used unless Jagex did the suicidal idea of setting everyone back at zero.

 

Yeah, people can laugh at the RS system, but you have to be honest that the game has it's hands tied in part being a 10 year old legacy game. Hell, it can't even release new sets of servers with updated game mechanics that only allow new accounts and don't interact with older servers. Why? Well, it'd basically have to program and test essentially two new games. There's merit in creating separate servers allowing only new member accounts, but it'd still have to be the same game.

 

Although, what if Jagex created new servers with updated game mechanics that allowed only new member accounts (or membership allowed you to create a new account on those servers). Maybe there'd be financial merit in that idea.

[stonewall337 66]

Brains>Skill in any game. Crap ton of idiots in WoW who fail because they are dumb [bleep]s.

[pal2002 5]

Ay, if I can go back 10 years and pick another game, I would not have picked rs again, against so much hate snd ridi ule and esp today knowing how it would end...

 

Should've gone pro with starcraft....

[Kaida23 769]

Ay, if I can go back 10 years and pick another game, I would not have picked rs again, against so much hate snd ridi ule and esp today knowing how it would end...

Personally, I'd still pick RS. Except for Ocarina of Time and FFVII, no other game still holds my attention after so many years.

[Holgranth 0]

The second article was the most beautiful thing ive ever read. That sums up what ive said about this game for years and why theres so many bots.

There's just so much he got wrong about other games though. I mean, even [bleep]ing D&D has avoidance based combat and health that doesn't scale to your gear, and it's probably the game that invented min-maxing. It makes it worse when you think that there are so many other things about the game that he could have said to prove the same point - the fact that there really are no limits to what you can do with a character's stats and feats, how you have more than one option for endgame gear, how classes all have strengths and weaknesses... :wall:

 

I mean, he specifically mentions tabletop games near the end, many of which are played with a die, and a dice roll does the same thing as an RNG. Let alone the fact that hundreds of other games use one to determine more than hits and misses.

 

I read it thinking that he had no idea what he was talking about. Sure, he has a point about how RS doesn't require skill, but he goes about it in the worst possible way. And he [bleep]ing compares an MMO to a RTS game to prove it #-o

 

In my defense I wrote that article as a direct counter to Master_Smither's September 18th article "Disinterest." It would have made a lot more sense the week after when people remembered his post which was basically arguing that Runescape required as much skill as a "Simple" RTS and implied that Nex was challenging while League of Legends games were easy.

 

He was comparing RS to the currently popular competitive multiplayer PC titles most of which are RTS and MOBA. Ergo my counterpoint did just the same. Master_Smither failed to appreciate the difference between Runescape and a competitive game and what competitive gamers are interested in. I wrote the article in an attempt to explain the other side of the coin.

 

As far as your statement that I have "no idea" what I was talking about, I'd like to think after this many years of playing games, modding games and watching the gaming industry I have a pretty decent idea what I am talking about. On the other hand I could have done a lot better job of expressing it.

 

Part of the mess is because the first version had direct quotes from Master_Smither's Article but that sucker was way too long. Had I known this would be published this long after "Disinterest" I would have come in from a totally different direction.

 

Your points to do with tabletop games do have some merit. Health scaling was a MASSIVE problem with D&D as far as I remember it. My group of fellow nerds quickly moved on from D&D to another RPG of our own invention (Which frankly had even worse rules and balance teaching us a valuable lesson about how [bleep]ing hard it is to build an RPG.) Perhaps I had it wrong that most RPGs allow health to scale with gear, 3/4 of the tabletop games I have played did but I could have just gotten the rejects.

 

On the other hand allowing health to scale with gear has been part of almost every gaming RPG since Diablo. There is a reason for this. I still stand behind my statements that Runescape's mechanics are those of an overly simplistic and unbalanced RPG, that Runescape takes far less skill than most popular titles and that there is still absolutely nothing wrong with loving the game anyway.. I'm sure a better writer could have expressed those three points in a shorter, easier to read format.

 

Finally I'd like to thank the Tip it editorial panel for putting this out there even though it is not in the greatest format and most people are not going to agree with it.

[Central_Keeper 1]

I think both articles are pretty well done and has their own points, which most of us can relate or experience sometimes during our RS and RL time.

 

I haven't been scammed once in my RS career, some had tried, but I quickly back out if things seems fishy. Then again, my choice of playing was really just training, so not much trade interaction going on anyways. I have manage to keep a few good friends on RS over the years of playing, even most of them have quit or stopped talking regularly like we used to. I guess for some people, once you hit a certain stage in the game, you sort of realize that "quality" is more important than "quantity", and its better to stick with ones that truly connects with you. Overall, whether it was Counstrike or Runescape or any other video games, that took huge chunk of time in m life, I agree with the author that I don't regret my decision doing it. I hate anything business related with a passion, but it was through RS, I learned a bit about economy, albeit not a realistic one, but at least it got me interested enough to start looking into it. I have learn to be more patience, and more understanding when it comes to talking with people, and different culture and their perspective. I also made friends from over the world and hearing their stories. Be more organized, and task setting and reaching the goals effectively, was another thing I learned through RS training.

 

With the second article, I never find RS to be a hard game, and I really consider it as a grinding game. I have often asked by others (or vice versa), what the opinion is between RS and other games. At the time, since I only play Counterstrike (almost same degree of enthusiasm at one point, spend at least 4 hrs per day on it). I can tell that one is a skill, and one is mostly "time" game. But interestingly enough, I still learn through both games, but I also learn how to play through each games weak point. When I play games, I prefer not to think about it too much (hence I tend to do quests or holiday event quickly), but at the same time, I find some activities in the game soothing. I used to go woodcutting and fishing when reading school books, with sound effects on, imagine myself actually among the forest and beside the river or sea instead of at my desk. It somehow helps to ease the boredom of reading, and getting xp at the same time (and I don't ignore other people in game, at least try not to).

 

I think overall, each different games has each own merit (RS has F2P version, which has pretty big content compare to other games I have played), and to compare them to each other is like other have said, orange and apples. The main thing is, is how we all started this game with nothing but few nooby items and the mindset of a explorer/merchant/warriors. The starting point is the same with all the players, eventually we will all choose our own paths in RS and RL, but the memories of good time will not fade, and into the heart of thousands.