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The_Gabe

Analysis of the Gilad Shalit release

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Yes another thread relating to the conflict, sue me.

 

To those of you who don't know, I'll provide a background to who Gilad Shalit is.

Gilad Shalit (Hebrew: גלעד שליט‎, born 28 August 1986) is an Israeli-French citizen and IDF soldier. On 25 June 2006, he was abducted by Hamas militants from inside Israel near the border with Gaza in a cross-border raid via underground tunnels, and held in isolation without medical care or Red Cross visits for over five years until he was released on 18 October 2011.

 

Shalit was abducted near the Kerem Shalom crossing in Israel, and was held by Hamas as a hostage at an unknown location in the Gaza Strip.[5] On 11 October 2011, it was reported that a deal would secure his freedom after more than five years in isolation and captivity, in exchange for over 1,000 Palestinian convicted prisoners, including hundreds convicted of multiple murders and carrying out terror attacks against Israeli civilians.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13]

 

Hamas refused requests from the International Committee of the Red Cross to allow the ICRC to visit Shalit. Red Cross Director-General Yves Daccord stated that: The Shalit family have the right under international humanitarian law to be in contact with their son.[14] Hamas, which maintains in its founding charter the directive to annihilate Israel and establish strict religious Islamic law, claimed that any such Red Cross humanitarian and medical visit could have betrayed the location where Hamas was holding Shalit hostage.

 

Multiple human rights organizations have stated that the terms and conditions of Shalit's confinement were contrary to international humanitarian law. The United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, which released a report in September 2009, also called for Shalit to be released.[15] In its 27 May 2011 Deauville Declaration, the G8 demanded the release of Gilad Shalit.[16]

 

On October 11th, a deal was struct between Israel and Hamas. Shalit would be traded for 1027 Palestinian prisoners, many of which were serving life sentences. Hamas declared October 18th, the day of the exchange, as a holiday. This was a sign that Israel cares for every single soldier sent to the battlefield and as a day that should be meant for peace, and not violence and terrorism.

 

While Israel was happy to have Gilad Shalit back home with his family, Palestinian mothers were happy to have their sons home, too. There is one difference though, as a lady quoted when her son came home

We had lost hope of his release because previous attempts to exchange prisoners have failed, said Zalloums mother, Fadwa, 72. All I want now is to have him here with me so that I can see him every day and be able to hold him and kiss him whenever I want.

 

Adnan Zalloum was 25 when he was sentenced to three life terms in jail plus 33 years for killing three Israelis and wounding five others in a Jerusalem stabbing spree.

 

Hamas officials have put out statements such as

The rest of the prisoners must be released, because if they are not released in a normal way, they will be released in other ways, Mousa Abu Marzook, one of the movements top leaders said, according to the Hamas-linked Web site al-Qassam.

 

And more containing on how they will kidnap more soldiers to trade for prisoners.

 

As a people who are trying to gain a statehood in the Security Council, cheering on murderers being freed and promising to kidnap more soldiers seems like an approach that does not ask for peace, but for elimination instead.

 

Israel has enough problems with its reputation in the international community to violate a deal that could and will be harmful to civilians. If Israel doesn't release the murderers that lie in its prisons, most likely a hellstorm will erupt, so the agreement must go on as planned.

 

These are my analysis from my point of view on the issue, and I was wondering about other views of this.

 

Thoughts?


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Three months banishment to 9gag is something i would never wish upon anybody, not even my worst enemy.

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Is one man's life really worth 1000+ other people's lives? Not only that, but how many of those prisoners do you think will do some more crazy stuff and kill more Israelis?

 

I personally say don't negotiate with the enemy, but its not my decision.

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I had noticed you had a picture in your signature related to him, lol. Then when i saw on tv that they would release them i only knew of him because i saw your signature! Seems funny to me, and i saw you removed him from your signature now, leaving only the COD Cat


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Glad he's back, but not in this manner. Hopefully there is something bigger coming through the pipes that this is a catalyst for.

 

Also seems funny that the Palestinian Authority have decided that 1 Israeli soldier is worth 1027 Palestinians...


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Frankly, I think that a prisoner swap of any kind is a sign of progress in the region, and especially (given the concessions Israel made) a sign that Israel is becoming more humble. Given its increasing isolation, it is going to need to be so to survive the geopolitical maelstrom that is the Middle East.

 

On a more personal level, I am glad that all those involved - Shalit and the Palestinians - are free.



"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau

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Also seems funny that the Palestinian Authority have decided that 1 Israeli soldier is worth 1027 Palestinians...

Remember, Israel authority accepted this claim. :rolleyes:


"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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Glad he's back, but not in this manner. Hopefully there is something bigger coming through the pipes that this is a catalyst for.

 

Also seems funny that the Palestinian Authority have decided that 1 Israeli soldier is worth 1027 Palestinians...

 

Not only the Palestine Authority. Israel does, too, or else they wouldn't have made the trade.

 

Asfor the topic at hand,the OP puts too much emphasis on howthe palestinians were murderers, as if soldiers were not, too. They just happened to be fighting for the other side.

 

And I think it's best not to start talking about human rights and international laws being broken in this conflict, as we have already discussed this in the past... 3? threads we had about Israel and Palestine.


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Glad he's back, but not in this manner. Hopefully there is something bigger coming through the pipes that this is a catalyst for.

 

Also seems funny that the Palestinian Authority have decided that 1 Israeli soldier is worth 1027 Palestinians...

 

Not only the Palestine Authority. Israel does, too, or else they wouldn't have made the trade.

 

Asfor the topic at hand,the OP puts too much emphasis on howthe palestinians were murderers, as if soldiers were not, too. They just happened to be fighting for the other side.

 

And I think it's best not to start talking about human rights and international laws being broken in this conflict, as we have already discussed this in the past... 3? threads we had about Israel and Palestine.

 

I'm actually just posting on this thread what has come out of the trade, and what people are discussed. The international laws broken here are about prisoners and illegal kidnapping, which were not discussed in the last 3 threads.

 

 

I had noticed you had a picture in your signature related to him, lol. Then when i saw on tv that they would release them i only knew of him because i saw your signature! Seems funny to me, and i saw you removed him from your signature now, leaving only the COD Cat

 

Haha yeah. I'm personally happy he's finally free so the signature is no longer needed :grin:.


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Three months banishment to 9gag is something i would never wish upon anybody, not even my worst enemy.

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I notice how everyone in the media talks about the one Israeli occupier, and there's barely any notice of the Arabs released. The analysis acts as if he was some tourist who innocently wandered off in the land and got lost. Just more racism in the Western media when it comes to Arabs; I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. And I have to hand it to Netanyahu. He might be a racist and a fascist, but he's very cunning and smart. Continuing to privately work with Hamas while in public denouncing them, and simultaneously subverting any process of recognizing the Palestinian people. Not a new strategy, but he's a genius at it. Continue to undercut the fraudsters Abbas and Fayyad, so they can go back to defending the settlements, because there is no viable interlocutor. Well done.

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I notice how everyone in the media talks about the one Israeli occupier, and there's barely any notice of the Arabs released. The analysis acts as if he was some tourist who innocently wandered off in the land and got lost. Just more racism in the Western media when it comes to Arabs; I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. And I have to hand it to Netanyahu. He might be a racist and a fascist, but he's very cunning and smart. Continuing to privately work with Hamas while in public denouncing them, and simultaneously subverting any process of recognizing the Palestinian people. Not a new strategy, but he's a genius at it. Continue to undercut the fraudsters Abbas and Fayyad, so they can go back to defending the settlements, because there is no viable interlocutor. Well done.

 

Because holding someone and denying them all the rights that they deserve as a prisoner, and then releasing Palestinians who have committeed crimes which included the killings of many people is just a way of denouncing Palestinians. Right.

 

How exactly was Netanyahu secretly working with Hamas? The whole negotiations were done through the Egyptians...

 

Please know something related to this before you post.


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Three months banishment to 9gag is something i would never wish upon anybody, not even my worst enemy.

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I notice how everyone in the media talks about the one Israeli occupier, and there's barely any notice of the Arabs released. The analysis acts as if he was some tourist who innocently wandered off in the land and got lost. Just more racism in the Western media when it comes to Arabs; I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. And I have to hand it to Netanyahu. He might be a racist and a fascist, but he's very cunning and smart. Continuing to privately work with Hamas while in public denouncing them, and simultaneously subverting any process of recognizing the Palestinian people. Not a new strategy, but he's a genius at it. Continue to undercut the fraudsters Abbas and Fayyad, so they can go back to defending the settlements, because there is no viable interlocutor. Well done.

 

Because holding someone and denying them all the rights that they deserve as a prisoner, and then releasing Palestinians who have committeed crimes which included the killings of many people is just a way of denouncing Palestinians. Right.

 

How exactly was Netanyahu secretly working with Hamas? The whole negotiations were done through the Egyptians...

 

Please know something related to this before you post.

 

Yawn. Are you seriously saying that Netanyahu did not just cut a deal with Hamas? And you're saying I don't "know something"? Christ.

 

Please, do you honestly take international dialogue at face value? Learn how to analyze diplomacy. Egypt was involved so that they will be trusted to be involved in the future. It's well known that Egypt's population hates Israel -- with good reason -- and its revolution could prevent it from being involved in the future. That's why they were involved now; they might be precluded in the future. This deal was designed to undermine the Palestinian Authority and empower Hamas. Hamas is losing support, they need a nice jolt to show that their methods are far more effective, and they get results. Netanyahu wants to undermine non-violent resistance. Why do you think Israel made Hamas into what it is in the first place? So long as Hamas is in power, the Israeli right can safely state that it has "no partner" with whom to negotiate which means it can keep doing what it likes doing (build settlements and make life miserable for Palestinians). And keep the war going.

 

As per usual, Chomsky states the obvious:

 

I think [israeli soldier Gilad Shalit] should have been released a long time ago, but there’s something missing from this whole story. There are no pictures of Palestinian women, no discussion, in fact, in the story of, what about the Palestinian prisoners being released? Where do they come from? There is a lot to say about that. For example, we do not know — at least I do not read it in The Times — whether the release includes the elected officials who were kidnapped and imprisoned by Israel in 2007 when the United States, the European Union, and Israel decided to dissolve the only freely elected legislature in the Arab world.

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Yawn. Are you seriously saying that Netanyahu did not just cut a deal with Hamas? And you're saying I don't "know something"? Christ.

 

There was a deal, but it went through Egypt.

 

Please, do you honestly take international dialogue at face value? Learn how to analyze diplomacy. Egypt was involved so that they will be trusted to be involved in the future. It's well known that Egypt's population hates Israel -- with good reason -- and its revolution could prevent it from being involved in the future. That's why they were involved now; they might be precluded in the future.

 

This isn't relevant if they are involved in the future though, they were now.

 

This deal was designed to undermine the Palestinian Authority and empower Hamas.

The deal was to free Gilad Shalit. What would Israel gain from undermining the PLO when they weren't going to come to the negotiating table anyways?

 

Hamas is losing support, they need a nice jolt to show that their methods are far more effective, and they get results. Netanyahu wants to undermine non-violent resistance.

This was something that couldn't have been avoided. There is no way to solve this conflict without violence if nobody is willing to negotiate and all they do is attack.

 

Why do you think Israel made Hamas into what it is in the first place? So long as Hamas is in power, the Israeli right can safely state that it has "no partner" with whom to negotiate which means it can keep doing what it likes doing (build settlements and make life miserable for Palestinians). And keep the war going.

 

If Abbas would come to the negotiating table without preconditions, maybe building settlements, which is legal, would be talked about.

 

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if war erupted before too long. I would actually support it at this point when negotiating just won't work.


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If Abbas would come to the negotiating table without preconditions, maybe building settlements, which is legal, would be talked about.

 

How can you negotiate a deal over division of land when one side is still expanding, it's an illogical position. It is like negotiating over how to divide a piece of cake while one person is still eating it up.


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and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

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Correction: building settlements to the extent the Israelis are is illegal.



"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau

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If Abbas would come to the negotiating table without preconditions, maybe building settlements, which is legal, would be talked about.

 

How can you negotiate a deal over division of land when one side is still expanding, it's an illogical position. It is like negotiating over how to divide a piece of cake while one person is still eating it up.

Stop attacking Israel. They are correct and not to be questioned.

 

My analysis of this situation: a trade of 1000 terrorists [who are forced to act as they do because they're animals backed into a corner] for 1 well equipped terrorist that does what he does for the sake of a country that didn't exist 7 decades ago, and only survives because of its apartheid funded by the US. I would just like to remind everyone that the entire Israeli-Palestine conflict was instigated by Zionists creating a country out of thin air. Jews were plentiful in Greater Syria and other parts of the Middle East pre-Israel and they were seen and treated as Arabs and equals as much as everyone else was. The conflict is not one based on Arab vs. Jew, it's Arab vs. Invader.


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How can you negotiate a deal over division of land when one side is still expanding, it's an illogical position. It is like negotiating over how to divide a piece of cake while one person is still eating it up.

 

How can you negotiate a deal when one side is committing terrorism daily and firing rockets at innocent civilians daily. It isn't a one sided street.

 

My analysis of this situation: a trade of 1000 terrorists [who are forced to act as they do because they're animals backed into a corner]

Forced to act that way?

Among them are those responsible for the brutal massacres at the Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv (21 teenagers killed, 132 injured), the Sbarro Restaurant in Jerusalem (15 killed, 130 wounded), and the Park Hotel seder attack on the eve of Passover in Netanya (Thirty killed, 140 injured)
.

No one is ever forced to act this way. You always have the chose if commit terrorism and murder or not.

 

for 1 well equipped terrorist that does what he does for the sake of a country that didn't exist 7 decades ago, and only survives because of its apartheid funded by the US.

 

You are right the State of Israel didn't exist 70 years ago but neither did Palestine. But Israel did exist 2000 years ago but Palestine never existed at all. So i find it very ironic that "Israel was created out of thin air" because it wasn't but Palestine was created out of thin air.

 

I would just like to remind everyone that the entire Israeli-Palestine conflict was instigated by Zionists creating a country out of thin air. Jews were plentiful in Greater Syria and other parts of the Middle East pre-Israel and they were seen and treated as Arabs and equals as much as everyone else was. The conflict is not one based on Arab vs. Jew, it's Arab vs. Invader.

 

Do i even need to say how antisemitic that sounds.


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Stop attacking Israel. They are correct and not to be questioned.

 

:thumbsup:



"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau

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If Abbas would come to the negotiating table without preconditions, maybe building settlements, which is legal, would be talked about.

 

How can you negotiate a deal over division of land when one side is still expanding, it's an illogical position. It is like negotiating over how to divide a piece of cake while one person is still eating it up.

Stop attacking Israel. They are correct and not to be questioned.

 

My analysis of this situation: a trade of 1000 terrorists [who are forced to act as they do because they're animals backed into a corner] for 1 well equipped terrorist that does what he does for the sake of a country that didn't exist 7 decades ago, and only survives because of its apartheid funded by the US. I would just like to remind everyone that the entire Israeli-Palestine conflict was instigated by Zionists creating a country out of thin air. Jews were plentiful in Greater Syria and other parts of the Middle East pre-Israel and they were seen and treated as Arabs and equals as much as everyone else was. The conflict is not one based on Arab vs. Jew, it's Arab vs. Invader.

 

How the [bleep] can you call a soldier a terrorist?


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How can you negotiate a deal over division of land when one side is still expanding, it's an illogical position. It is like negotiating over how to divide a piece of cake while one person is still eating it up.

 

How can you negotiate a deal when one side is committing terrorism daily and firing rockets at innocent civilians daily. It isn't a one sided street.

 

1) Israel is not negotiating a two-state solution with Hamas but with Fatah (as representatives of the Palestinian Authority). Hamas has been the predominant group that has been firing rockets into Israel not Fatah. Conflating the two seperate groups is just not a representation of what is really happening.

 

2) Your counter point completely failed to tackle the point I raised.

 

 

 

Getting back to the overall subject of the thread:

 

On a personal level, the release of Gilad Shalit is a wonderful thing for him and his family. However, the only people that benefit from this are the two groups that are intransigent and preventing any hope of a two-state solution Likud (and more widely Natanyahu's right wing coalition) and Hamas. The release of the 1,000 detainees will be a big short term boost to Hamas but they have played their last card now having clearly feeling threatened by the popularity of Abbas's actions at the UN. This release of 1,000 prisoners for 1 kidnapped Israeli soldier may convince them that capturing more soldiers in the future. Likewise, Netanyahu is using this to gain favour with the Israeli public which isn't helpful either considering how he deliberately circumvented the Oslo Accords (after vowing not to) and considering his willingness to undermine any hope of negotiation with the PA. Yet again, the warmongers on both sides win.


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He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

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How can you negotiate a deal over division of land when one side is still expanding, it's an illogical position. It is like negotiating over how to divide a piece of cake while one person is still eating it up.

 

How can you negotiate a deal when one side is committing terrorism daily and firing rockets at innocent civilians daily. It isn't a one sided street.

 

1) Israel is not negotiating a two-state solution with Hamas but with Fatah (as representatives of the Palestinian Authority). Hamas has been the predominant group that has been firing rockets into Israel not Fatah. Conflating the two seperate groups is just not a representation of what is really happening.

 

2) Your counter point completely failed to tackle the point I raised.

 

 

 

Getting back to the overall subject of the thread:

 

On a personal level, the release of Gilad Shalit is a wonderful thing for him and his family. However, the only people that benefit from this are the two groups that are intransigent and preventing any hope of a two-state solution Likud (and more widely Natanyahu's right wing coalition) and Hamas. The release of the 1,000 detainees will be a big short term boost to Hamas but they have played their last card now having clearly feeling threatened by the popularity of Abbas's actions at the UN. This release of 1,000 prisoners for 1 kidnapped Israeli soldier may convince them that capturing more soldiers in the future. Likewise, Netanyahu is using this to gain favour with the Israeli public which isn't helpful either considering how he deliberately circumvented the Oslo Accords (after vowing not to) and considering his willingness to undermine any hope of negotiation with the PA. Yet again, the warmongers on both sides win.

 

Actually the second Abbas presented his request for a state he nullified the Oslo Accords. Most of Israel approved the deal, so it wasn't just Netayahu's right wing coalition.


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How can you negotiate a deal when one side is committing terrorism daily and firing rockets at innocent civilians daily. It isn't a one sided street.

 

1) Israel is not negotiating a two-state solution with Hamas but with Fatah (as representatives of the Palestinian Authority). Hamas has been the predominant group that has been firing rockets into Israel not Fatah. Conflating the two seperate groups is just not a representation of what is really happening.

 

2) Your counter point completely failed to tackle the point I raised.

 

 

 

Getting back to the overall subject of the thread:

 

On a personal level, the release of Gilad Shalit is a wonderful thing for him and his family. However, the only people that benefit from this are the two groups that are intransigent and preventing any hope of a two-state solution Likud (and more widely Natanyahu's right wing coalition) and Hamas. The release of the 1,000 detainees will be a big short term boost to Hamas but they have played their last card now having clearly feeling threatened by the popularity of Abbas's actions at the UN. This release of 1,000 prisoners for 1 kidnapped Israeli soldier may convince them that capturing more soldiers in the future. Likewise, Netanyahu is using this to gain favour with the Israeli public which isn't helpful either considering how he deliberately circumvented the Oslo Accords (after vowing not to) and considering his willingness to undermine any hope of negotiation with the PA. Yet again, the warmongers on both sides win.

 

This where you are wrong Israel will not be negotiating a deal with only half of the Palestinians but with all of them. Meaning as long as hamas a Palestinians terrorist continues its terrorism Israel can't talk peace with them. The Palestinians are all one group of people its a 2 state solution not 3. One for the Jews and one for the Arabs not One for the Jews and 2 for the Arabs

Counter point is exactly correct to what you said.

 

As The Gabe said it is not Israel but Abbas who is undermining the peace process. Abbas going to the UN is against all agreements in till now.


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How can you negotiate a deal when one side is committing terrorism daily and firing rockets at innocent civilians daily. It isn't a one sided street.

 

1) Israel is not negotiating a two-state solution with Hamas but with Fatah (as representatives of the Palestinian Authority). Hamas has been the predominant group that has been firing rockets into Israel not Fatah. Conflating the two seperate groups is just not a representation of what is really happening.

 

2) Your counter point completely failed to tackle the point I raised.

 

 

 

Getting back to the overall subject of the thread:

 

On a personal level, the release of Gilad Shalit is a wonderful thing for him and his family. However, the only people that benefit from this are the two groups that are intransigent and preventing any hope of a two-state solution Likud (and more widely Natanyahu's right wing coalition) and Hamas. The release of the 1,000 detainees will be a big short term boost to Hamas but they have played their last card now having clearly feeling threatened by the popularity of Abbas's actions at the UN. This release of 1,000 prisoners for 1 kidnapped Israeli soldier may convince them that capturing more soldiers in the future. Likewise, Netanyahu is using this to gain favour with the Israeli public which isn't helpful either considering how he deliberately circumvented the Oslo Accords (after vowing not to) and considering his willingness to undermine any hope of negotiation with the PA. Yet again, the warmongers on both sides win.

 

This where you are wrong Israel will not be negotiating a deal with only half of the Palestinians but with all of them. Meaning as long as hamas a Palestinians terrorist continues its terrorism Israel can't talk peace with them. The Palestinians are all one group of people its a 2 state solution not 3. One for the Jews and one for the Arabs not One for the Jews and 2 for the Arabs

Counter point is exactly correct to what you said.

 

As The Gabe said it is not Israel but Abbas who is undermining the peace process. Abbas going to the UN is against all agreements in till now.

 

The way I see it, there should be talks with Hamas as well because although I disagree with much of their agenda and approach, they are a group which does unfortunately represent many Palestinians. However, the facts on the ground are that the two state solution has only really been negotiated by the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority (represented by Fatah). You could argue that the unity deal means now that Hamas has a say but in reality that deal seems to have done nothing in practice and was just a means of pacifying a dissolusioned population.

 

As for Abbass going to the UN, I think it was important in two regards, one it made Fatah more popular which in turn gives Abbass a stronger footing within Palestine which ultimately will help Palestinian backing for the two state option that Abbass wants to make happen. Secondly, I think it gave the Israel, the US, the Quartet and the wider international community a shot in the arm and it pushed the Israel-Palestine issue back on to the agenda which can only be good in these circumstances. There were no negotiations ongoing because of the continued expansion which is a roadblock to talks (which Netanyahu is deliberately exploiting). These expansions undermine Abbass' position within Palestine which means he had no way of representing his people in peace talks anyway since you can't make a deal when you don't have the support of your people. The UN bid was more of a political move by Abbass to improve his popularity in Palestine and to get the issue back on the agenda rather than a real effort at statehood via the UN (since everyone knows the US will veto). I think it was a great move overall, Fatah is boosted (thus hurting Hamas, which is why they released Shalit) and the international community is pulling the finger out for a change.


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He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

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The way I see it, there should be talks with Hamas as well because although I disagree with much of their agenda and approach, they are a group which does unfortunately represent many Palestinians. However, the facts on the ground are that the two state solution has only really been negotiated by the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority (represented by Fatah). You could argue that the unity deal means now that Hamas has a say but in reality that deal seems to have done nothing in practice and was just a means of pacifying a dissolusioned population.

 

As for Abbass going to the UN, I think it was important in two regards, one it made Fatah more popular which in turn gives Abbass a stronger footing within Palestine which ultimately will help Palestinian backing for the two state option that Abbass wants to make happen. Secondly, I think it gave the Israel, the US, the Quartet and the wider international community a shot in the arm and it pushed the Israel-Palestine issue back on to the agenda which can only be good in these circumstances. There were no negotiations ongoing because of the continued expansion which is a roadblock to talks (which Netanyahu is deliberately exploiting). These expansions undermine Abbass' position within Palestine which means he had no way of representing his people in peace talks anyway since you can't make a deal when you don't have the support of your people. The UN bid was more of a political move by Abbass to improve his popularity in Palestine and to get the issue back on the agenda rather than a real effort at statehood via the UN (since everyone knows the US will veto). I think it was a great move overall, Fatah is boosted (thus hurting Hamas, which is why they released Shalit) and the international community is pulling the finger out for a change.

 

you are right talks can only be through Israel and the Palestinians. However the Palestinian Authority is meant to represent all of the Palestinian and Israel can't make a deal with only part of them. As long as hamas the terrorist group represents a great part of the Palestinian, Israel can't negotiate.

 

What you are saying doesn't justify going against everything that already has agreed upon.


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The way I see it, there should be talks with Hamas as well because although I disagree with much of their agenda and approach, they are a group which does unfortunately represent many Palestinians. However, the facts on the ground are that the two state solution has only really been negotiated by the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority (represented by Fatah). You could argue that the unity deal means now that Hamas has a say but in reality that deal seems to have done nothing in practice and was just a means of pacifying a dissolusioned population.

 

As for Abbass going to the UN, I think it was important in two regards, one it made Fatah more popular which in turn gives Abbass a stronger footing within Palestine which ultimately will help Palestinian backing for the two state option that Abbass wants to make happen. Secondly, I think it gave the Israel, the US, the Quartet and the wider international community a shot in the arm and it pushed the Israel-Palestine issue back on to the agenda which can only be good in these circumstances. There were no negotiations ongoing because of the continued expansion which is a roadblock to talks (which Netanyahu is deliberately exploiting). These expansions undermine Abbass' position within Palestine which means he had no way of representing his people in peace talks anyway since you can't make a deal when you don't have the support of your people. The UN bid was more of a political move by Abbass to improve his popularity in Palestine and to get the issue back on the agenda rather than a real effort at statehood via the UN (since everyone knows the US will veto). I think it was a great move overall, Fatah is boosted (thus hurting Hamas, which is why they released Shalit) and the international community is pulling the finger out for a change.

 

you are right talks can only be through Israel and the Palestinians. However the Palestinian Authority is meant to represent all of the Palestinian and Israel can't make a deal with only part of them. As long as hamas the terrorist group represents a great part of the Palestinian, Israel can't negotiate.

 

What you are saying doesn't justify going against everything that already has agreed upon.

 

Did it ever occur to you that actually talking to the group who has the most support from the Palestinians might actually change something rather then treating the minority as if their opinions are the same as that of the majority? But no. Treating the majority of palastinians as if they dont exist seems to be the only thing Israel is capable of.


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[spoiler=click you know you wanna]
Me behave? Seriously? As a child I saw Tarzan almost naked, Cinderella arrived home from a party after midnight, Pinocchio told lies, Aladin was a thief, Batman drove over 200 miles an hour, Snow White lived in a house with seven men, Popeye smoked a pipe and had tattoos, Pac man ran around to digital music while eating pills that enhanced his performance, and Shaggy and Scooby were mystery solving hippies who always had the munchies. The fault is not mine! if you had this childhood and loved it put this in your signature!

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Did it ever occur to you that actually talking to the group who has the most support from the Palestinians might actually change something rather then treating the minority as if their opinions are the same as that of the majority? But no. Treating the majority of palastinians as if they dont exist seems to be the only thing Israel is capable of.

 

Did it ever occur to that Abbas head of the Palestinian Authority is not the majority. Abbas pushed of the the Palestinian election because he knew that he would lose and Hamas would gain control. This means that most Palestinians support a terrorist group that Israel can't negotiate with.

Lets not forget the Landslide victory of the Palestinian Election in 2006


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