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Tip.It Times - 23rd October 2011


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31 replies to this topic

#21
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The silliness is your assumption that I am trying to prove something by writing in a way that I enjoy. As for what the audience wants: I wouldn't be on the EP if I had to write what they want to see, because it's often not what I want to write about.


Yes, yes of course you're not *cough*. I can see what the issue is here. It's called me, myself and I. If you really want to stimulate debate and take your good ideas further then make it shorter and more suited to the audience you're trying to involve.

I retain that you, as a forum member with no other position, are in no position to evaluate what the EP should publish. The audience's tastes are too broad to be able to satisfy everybody, and I am afraid more seem to have enjoyed the article judging from feedback. The fact you didn't like the writing stye means nothing to what the EP will or will not publish.


I don't need a 'position' to voice my opinion on something, so please spare me the 'no position' crap. On the subject you are neither moderator nor administrator so you're in no position to tell me what I can and can't comment on.

If you choose to ignore a number of players giving feedback on this and your other articles then that's your problem not mine. Just like you're ignoring the pages and pages here of positive feedback and debate on your current article...........

#22
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The silliness is your assumption that I am trying to prove something by writing in a way that I enjoy. As for what the audience wants: I wouldn't be on the EP if I had to write what they want to see, because it's often not what I want to write about.


Yes, yes of course you're not *cough*. I can see what the issue is here. It's called me, myself and I. If you really want to stimulate debate and take your good ideas further then make it shorter and more suited to the audience you're trying to involve.

I fail to see any merit in your criticism. In case you didn't notice, you're the only one who seems to have a problem with the way Croce writes. Yet, you make this assumption that all users share your own (lack of?) attention span for an article that happens to be relevant to every user on this forum. With respect to "more suited to the audience," I can't help but read that as, "Everyone on TIF is stupid but me." Yet here you stand alone in complaining about how it was written rather than what was written.

For your cute little comment about the EP, we make the judgment of what is published. Everyone on the EP knows how to write well, knows conceptual and practical English, and doesn't seem to have any difficulty in reading an article longer than the length of the chat box on RuneScape. Croce puts his all into his articles and is never going to change his style. The common denominator in all of his articles is trying to enlighten users of an often overlooked or downright unknown idea and he does a damn great job every single time.

If someone looks at one of his articles and thinks it's too long or whatever else you were suggesting, they're missing out on a great piece with some knowledge that will benefit them beyond RuneScape and Tip.It. If you alone think his articles are too long or educational, you're reading the wrong editorial, buddy. If it's short abominations of the English language you were hoping to see, try Reddit.
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#23
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Frankly Croc, I find your articles boring and it was the same with the previous article (which I did not finish btw). This one I managed to finish but I was left with a sense that this was a reply to the people who commented on your article last time. In which case it would have been suited to post in that thread rather than in another Times article. Another thing I dislike is when a Times article fails to spark up a debate or any form of discussion which this failed to do, you had better success last time. There is very little discussion value in the article which is why you got the "well written" replies but those posts failed to address what was actually in the article. Only a couple of people actually talked about the content in your article which I would be concerned with I would be you. Maybe you should consider jrhairychest advice and cut down the long winding articles and keep them concise and to the point.

#24
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It's not a silly assumption, I'm certainly not the first poster to have commented on your writing style. The way you want your articles to be written isn't necessarily what everyone else agrees with i.e. the audience.

Actually you're wrong - I like the subject and I think it could be quite interesting and the subjects you've picked before are also interesting. I object to the way it was written which I am allowed to do. And yes - it shouldn't have got past the editorial panel. I'm in a position to say so as I'm part of your intended audience, which you are ignoring.

If a position comes up on the EP panel I'll consider it but I won't hold my breath in being successful.


The silliness is your assumption that I am trying to prove something by writing in a way that I enjoy. As for what the audience wants: I wouldn't be on the EP if I had to write what they want to see, because it's often not what I want to write about.

I retain that you, as a forum member with no other position, are in no position to evaluate what the EP should publish. The audience's tastes are too broad to be able to satisfy everybody, and I am afraid more seem to have enjoyed the article judging from feedback. The fact you didn't like the writing stye means nothing to what the EP will or will not publish.


This is the attitude I HATE about TIF staff. Anyone can evaluate your writing, and whether or not it should have been published. The article was boring, according to some, too deep for the topic it covered according to others, and simply useless or uninteresting to yet others. I don't think, personally, I would have published it. The article covered an interesting topic, but was presented poorly for the audience, according to taste, etc, as evidenced by the previous posts.

I am NOT saying it was poorly written as far as style/topic etc. Rather that for the audience, it wasn't written well for the audience.

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#25
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"Furthermore, it is exceptionally lazy for people on the internet not to be able to fact-check for themselves"

The burden of proof is always on people making the claim.
Whenever they do it is THEIR responsibility to back it up. To not back up your claims and expect other people to do your work for you is lazy.

#26
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"Furthermore, it is exceptionally lazy for people on the internet not to be able to fact-check for themselves"

The burden of proof is always on people making the claim.
Whenever they do it is THEIR responsibility to back it up. To not back up your claims and expect other people to do your work for you is lazy.


I hope you see the irony in what you just said. You're telling him to fact-check on a claim which deals with burden of proof, the truth of which is self-evident.

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#27
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"Furthermore, it is exceptionally lazy for people on the internet not to be able to fact-check for themselves"

The burden of proof is always on people making the claim.
Whenever they do it is THEIR responsibility to back it up. To not back up your claims and expect other people to do your work for you is lazy.


I hope you see the irony in what you just said. You're telling him to fact-check


I did not. I said that if someone doesn't believe your claim then it's your job to prove it.

#28
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"Furthermore, it is exceptionally lazy for people on the internet not to be able to fact-check for themselves"

The burden of proof is always on people making the claim.
Whenever they do it is THEIR responsibility to back it up. To not back up your claims and expect other people to do your work for you is lazy.


I hope you see the irony in what you just said. You're telling him to fact-check


I did not. I said that if someone doesn't believe your claim then it's your job to prove it.


Backing up your claims with evidence to substantiate them is fact-checking. You check facts to prove something along with reasoning and other evidence. The two are not mutually exclusive. The problem with what you said is that, again, you're asking him to fact-check (or if you prefer, prove) a claim about fact-checking. It's self-evident that failing to fact-check is usually indicative of at least a disinterest in the truth of a statement.

You can also occasionally chock up failure of such to oversight. In that case, it's not so much the laziness to fact-check as opposed to (usually) a subtle error that takes some digging to get to. In other cases, its gross incompetence as the culprit for failure to fact-check. In either case, I agree that there are many outcomes besides laziness that are responsible for failure to verify your facts. So I see why you told Croce to prove what he claimed.

That said, even if there are other causes behind failure of verification, it doesn't make his statement any less true. Crocefisso was making a specific statement about a process in debate. It's true that many people are lazy to check facts -- hence why I said it's self evident and he doesn't need to prove his claim beyond that. If he were positing an absolute as opposed to a particular (i.e. everyone who fails to fact-check is lazy), I'd agree that he'd have to prove his claim beyond self-evidence. I understand that he's positing a particular, not an absolute, given how he phrased his claim.

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#29
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I was not asking him to back up anything.

He was saying that those who ask for proof from people making a claim are lazy because they aren't fact checking it themselves (and I just realized now that my quote does a bad job of showing that).

I'm telling him that he's wrong, that if they want proof it's the other person's job to provide it.

#30
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I fail to see any merit in your criticism. In case you didn't notice, you're the only one who seems to have a problem with the way Croce writes. Yet, you make this assumption that all users share your own (lack of?) attention span for an article that happens to be relevant to every user on this forum. With respect to "more suited to the audience," I can't help but read that as, "Everyone on TIF is stupid but me." Yet here you stand alone in complaining about how it was written rather than what was written.


I see you don’t read the feedback to these articles as you’ll see I’m not alone. More suited to the audience means just that. I haven’t said anyone is stupid. You have. The audience doesn’t need a long winded and wordy article. As Rook put it, keep it straight to the point. I prefer things in plain English as do most people.

For your cute little comment about the EP, we make the judgment of what is published. Everyone on the EP knows how to write well, knows conceptual and practical English, and doesn't seem to have any difficulty in reading an article longer than the length of the chat box on RuneScape. Croce puts his all into his articles and is never going to change his style. The common denominator in all of his articles is trying to enlighten users of an often overlooked or downright unknown idea and he does a damn great job every single time.


Just because you’re on the EP doesn’t mean you know everything about article writing or that you understand the meaning of writing for your audience actually is. I’ve highlighted exactly that in your response here. Never change his style? What sort of writer or member of the EP who are worth their salt doesn’t consider their audience first? Completely ridiculous.

If someone looks at one of his articles and thinks it's too long or whatever else you were suggesting, they're missing out on a great piece with some knowledge that will benefit them beyond RuneScape and Tip.It. If you alone think his articles are too long or educational, you're reading the wrong editorial, buddy. If it's short abominations of the English language you were hoping to see, try Reddit.


Try asking the people who actually get to the end of the articles first before switching off due to the boredom of it. I’m always willing to read articles as long as they’re just what you say – informative, knowledgeable, entertaining and to the point. This article isn’t.

As far as the simpleton remarks go don’t forget you’re writing for Tipit, not the Times Educational section so come down from your perch a little here. It takes more to convince me than a couple of guys who have EP logos next to their name, mistake themselves for professional writers/editors who laughably ignore the most essential concept – The audience.

#31
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I was not asking him to back up anything.

He was saying that those who ask for proof from people making a claim are lazy because they aren't fact checking it themselves (and I just realized now that my quote does a bad job of showing that).

I'm telling him that he's wrong, that if they want proof it's the other person's job to provide it.


Oh! I see what you mean now. Yeah, you're right. :P Though depending on the statement made, it could boil down to laziness. If I state something to be well-known fact, like "Obama is the current President of the US", and someone challenges me on that point, I'd tell them to Google it since it requires almost no effort to. If they still refuse, well, no effort wasted. I've actually had that happen to me before, too. I make an obvious statement and someone challenges me on it. Luckily, it only happens with pure idiots, and I've encountered a handful of them in my travels across the Internet XD

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#32
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This has sadly and swiftly gone from discussing articles and their contents to borderline attacking author or user's writing or posting styles. These guidelines that are in the very first post apply to users, moderators, admins, EP'ers, TET Leaders, Crewbies--everyone. Everyone is expected to abide by them, as well as our forum rules. This sly and sneaky passive-aggressive debate style has slowly snuck back into the discussion threads for the past few weeks. This is not acceptable.

I'm going to give everyone one last opportunity to re-read this:
Read these rules before posting in this thread


...and try to keep things on track.

If we all can't exercise self restraint and rein it back on-topic together, moderators will essentially be forced to butcher discussion by deleting posts and editing out personal attacks, which will kill a weekly topic like this. It's not something we want to do, seriously. You can PM me if you have any questions, but I will be forced to remove further off-topic posts if this continues. Please don't let it get to that point.

Thanks

EDIT: Continuing previous off-topic discussion will not help the situation; please don't do it.

Edited by Kimberly, 27 October 2011 - 11:27 PM.

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