15-Nov-2011 - Coming Next Week: New Website!

[Blabb]

What kind of feedback has Tip.it given Jagex regarding the upcoming update?

Have you discussed the issue with leaders of other fansites?

[tripsis]

What kind of feedback has Tip.it given Jagex regarding the upcoming update?

Have you discussed the issue with leaders of other fansites?

Generally the same feedback being posted here.. that we disagree with the changes, they will hurt fan sites, etc. We have chatted a bit with other fan sites enough to know that we all generally share the same thoughts and opinions. But this decision is pretty much set in stone and I think they've been working on it for quite some time so I definitely don't expect anything to be changed or reversed.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves, HunterDexter. The entire RS community's reacting adversely to these changes, and it's no surprise to me that members of the fansite question Jagex's motives. I know I am right now.

 

It's like Tripsis said - Tip (and others) get benefits of some sort by being affiliated with Jagex. Worst case scenario, you have the fansite's name filtered in-game, and lose certain benefits, like a direct line of communication to Jagex, concept art, sneak peaks to updates, and so forth.

 

It may be the case that all fansites, not just Tip.it, may have to re-evaluate their standing relationship, and see if this new Jagex-backed Wiki is truly the dagger in the back that everyone feels it is. Until then, hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

[Erewhon2]

I personally love how I specifically asked a couple of JMods about their new quest guides at Runefest, and conveyed concern about this from a fansite point of view. I believe the answer was a pretty adamant "We don't wish to compete with you with guides/calcs/etc". Well, in my book the wiki is out to kill a lot of our guides and the removal of f2p kills a lot of the ease of use for our calcs. Thanks a lot, I remember who you were and I will bring it up should I ever meet you again.

 

 

Hmm, if this is the case, couldn't it be an option to break with Jagex as a fansite? I mean, they are clearly trying to hit not only Tip.it, but all the communities and fansites. I really think you guys should have a little discussion with other fansites and look into the option to stop being a bronze/silver/gold/platinum site, all together. I know it may a bit a harsh thing to do, because of losing out on some benefits, but look at what they did (RuneVillage for example) and what they are going to implement...

Honestly, there aren't any benefits to breaking off from Jagex. As a supported fan site, we do get benefits. They might not be that great, and sure it seems like they're trying to support fan sites on one hand and kill them with the other, but the benefits are there. It's great having a direct link of communication to Jagex, support in our competitions/events now and then, and then things like a stall at RuneFest. If we break off from Jagex, we lose those benefits and gain absolutely nothing (except maybe a public declaration of "we don't like what Jagex is doing"). But in the end, we wouldn't actually gain anything from it.

 

If anything, we'd probably be worse off because in addition to the updates that are killing fan sites, we'd also lose a link to Tip.It on the RSOF, maybe they'd censor "Tip.It" in-game, etc.

 

I don't see a problem for Tip.it, there are already competitors out there and you still hold your own. In fact I advise people in game to go to Tip.it and will probably continue to do so, I even brought someone back to Tip.it who thought you weren't going anymore. Competition is healthy, it will keep you in touch with whats needed and you will only improve as a website.

[Blabb]

this decision is pretty much set in stone and I think they've been working on it for quite some time so I definitely don't expect anything to be changed or reversed.

... which speaks tomes about their position towards their own employers - essentially us, the players who give them the money to exist as a gaming company in the first place.

 

I do agree with Makoto that "wait and see" should always be the policy. But "Wiki" says a lot to me. Anyone can both technically and practically take Tip.it's guides and post them on the official RS Wiki, rendering the original Tip.it versions useless. I believe that guides and the like make up a fundamental part of this fan site. Other than that, the many useful calculators here will be meaningless to much of Tip.it's fanbase. So this competitor, Erewhon2, is more powerful than all the rest combined. It is open to nearly the entire fanbase of Runescape, whilst other sites are open only to those who know about them - word of mouth and some minor advertising through Runescape being the main source of new community members.

 

From what I've heard, the hiscores will only be accessible to members. Unless the lite hiscores (for members-only) will still be available (and I do believe it will, but if not) there will be very little Tip.it will have to offer apart from the strength of its unique, warm and healthy community and occasional tidbits as well as some (let's call it) "support."

[tripsis]

I do agree with Makoto that "wait and see" should always be the policy. But "Wiki" says a lot to me. Anyone can both technically and practically take Tip.it's guides and post them on the official RS Wiki, rendering the original Tip.it versions useless. I believe that guides and the like make up a fundamental part of this fan site. Other than that, the many useful calculators here will be meaningless to much of Tip.it's fanbase. So this competitor, Erewhon2, is more powerful than all the rest combined. It is open to nearly the entire fanbase of Runescape, whilst other sites are open only to those who know about them - word of mouth and some minor advertising through Runescape being the main source of new community members.

For what it's worth, I do think Jagex will try to moderate the wiki to avoid copying and pasting from other fan sites.

[ixfd64]

One idea of a workaround would be to write a reflection-like program that reads a player's stats (such as by extracting it from the computer's memory) and submits them to a third-party hiscore server. This wouldn't be against the rules because such a program would not facilitate cheating - it merely collects data in the background and does not interact with the game in any way. If several million players are willing to use bots - which are against Jagex's rules - then I'm sure a larger number of players would be willing to use a legitimate program that does nothing but grab stats.

 

If Tip.It does something like this, it could generate a lot of traffic.

[Flodder450]

Clearly they think the entire F2P playerbase was made up of bots, and that any F2p'ers left are obviously very advanced bots that weren't affected by the "nuke", and are going to extreme steps to remove them.

*beep*...IDENTITY COMPROMISED. BEGIN TERMINATION PROTOCOLS...*beep*...

you will be deleted.

[Blabb]

One idea of a workaround would be to write a reflection-like program that reads a player's stats (such as by extracting it from the computer's memory) and submits them to a third-party hiscore server. This wouldn't be against the rules because such a program would not facilitate cheating - it merely collects data in the background and does not interact with the game in any way. If several million players are willing to use bots - which are against Jagex's rules - then I'm sure a larger number of players would be willing to use a legitimate program that does nothing but grab stats.

 

If Tip.It does something like this, it could generate a lot of traffic.

 

Not quite sure how that would work from a technical point of view, but it would have to be foolproof. In the past, programs of this sort, which do not interact with the game itself, have registered as macro programs and led to players being banned without having broken a rule in the first place.

[Mercifull]

I'm pretty sure the new ClusterFlutterer would stop any injection based client from scraping the hiscores

[quitthegame]

Yes, but then they should have said that they couldn't specify why they were making this update, rather than giving a bogus reason - lying in response to such a question might be worse than answering it truthfully.

 

Granted, doing so would have still resulted in a lot of criticism and flaming, but at least it wouldn't involve them having zero reading comprehension and a lack of ability to see that not everyone in F2P is a bot. I'd still be pretty angry over the update, but I wouldn't think they might just be hiring monkeys to type up their posts.

 

Well I don't think it's a bogus reason, I think it's a real reason, it's just not one of the top three reasons for doing it. As to your point that they should have refrained from saying anything...well that's what they did at first, isn't it? The FAQ didn't come out till days later, iirc. So they did attempt to follow your advice there, but so many players have unrealistic expectations that a storm of protests formed.

[xSxqPowerx]

Removing f2p from the hiscores is terrible. It's an awful thing to do to their players (f2p and p2p), and I honestly think it will hurt them more than it will help. Sure, some members who were going to be inactive for a while might stay subscribed so they don't disappear from the hiscores, but just as many free players will feel like the game lacks any sense of accomplishment when they first start, and might lose interest before even considering subscribing.

 

As far as the wiki goes, meh. I'm not particularly concerned about how it competes with fansites (although I'm sure it will). What I'm concerned about is the quality of the information. How much moderation will be put in place by Jagex? What about boss hunting guides? I fully expect to see guides that are factually correct... but that give inefficient or otherwise bad info, leading to the general masses of players following said bad info.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Actually, when I first started playing Runescape, I was checking the hiscores quite often. I looked up my friend, trying to beat him, and that was provided with me goals. When I was bored, I'd go around exploring, questing or whatever.

 

It's definitely not clear to say how much thisis going to hurt the amount of new players coming into the game, but just basing it off your personal experience is kind of ignorant and short-sighted.

 

 

I think what we all can agree on is this:

 

1.This *will* make the game more unattractive for new players by a certain amount

2.A certain amount of old players will be fed up enough to stop their subscription

3.Another certain amount might at least be fed up enough to stop telling other people about Runescape or might talk negatively

 

4.A certain amount of players will feel the pressure to remain on the highscores, be it after they have achieved huge goals and quit, or if they're f2p.

 

 

The only question is business wise, does the first section outweigh the second one? I think it will in the long run, but that's down to opinion, seeing that we don't have any accessible facts.

 

It's pretty foolish to call me 'arrogant' and 'short sighted' when you're making bogus statements to support your point of view that you don't support Jagex's move. You'd actually need a certain level of high scores to check against so you'll have taken some time in achieving those goals to appear there in the first place. You won't have achieved those by at least exploring the game and achieving at least some quests first. Nobody starts RS going 'oo high scores'. A genuine newcomer goes along 'Whats that then? Where's that go? How do I get there? What do I do with this........'I died again'.

 

Your other facts are also fabricated and I don't agree with them. There's not proof that this will make the game unnatractive to new players. Thats your point of view as an experienced player. A newbie won't have the experience of having the scores taken away from them so they've no axe to grind with Jagex. Its 'Oh right I have to get members for that then'. The only players that will *genuinely* stop subscription will be minimal. The rest of it is hot air that's all been said before. Pressure from high scores? That's if you're foolish enough to let yourself be under some sort of pressure. There's much more to the game than just high scores.

 

I did like the negative discussion about the game point though. What's new? Check out these forums. It's the same old whingefest from the same old people. Perhaps some of them should make good on their promises to leave. It'll be better for the game.

[Stev]

One idea of a workaround would be to write a reflection-like program that reads a player's stats (such as by extracting it from the computer's memory) and submits them to a third-party hiscore server. This wouldn't be against the rules because such a program would not facilitate cheating - it merely collects data in the background and does not interact with the game in any way. If several million players are willing to use bots - which are against Jagex's rules - then I'm sure a larger number of players would be willing to use a legitimate program that does nothing but grab stats.

 

If Tip.It does something like this, it could generate a lot of traffic.

 

Not quite sure how that would work from a technical point of view, but it would have to be foolproof. In the past, programs of this sort, which do not interact with the game itself, have registered as macro programs and led to players being banned without having broken a rule in the first place.

Giggity. Now we're talking. ;).

 

As long as it doesn't interact with the game applet, how would people get banned for using it? Jagex would have no way of knowing unless they breached privacy. *NUDGE*. Kinda like people using my DGSweeper... Jagex can't tell. What momma don't know can't hurt her.

[ilovecuttingyews]

One idea of a workaround would be to write a reflection-like program that reads a player's stats (such as by extracting it from the computer's memory) and submits them to a third-party hiscore server. This wouldn't be against the rules because such a program would not facilitate cheating - it merely collects data in the background and does not interact with the game in any way. If several million players are willing to use bots - which are against Jagex's rules - then I'm sure a larger number of players would be willing to use a legitimate program that does nothing but grab stats.

If Tip.It does something like this, it could generate a lot of traffic.

Not quite sure how that would work from a technical point of view, but it would have to be foolproof. In the past, programs of this sort, which do not interact with the game itself, have registered as macro programs and led to players being banned without having broken a rule in the first place.

Giggity. Now we're talking. ;).

As long as it doesn't interact with the game applet, how would people get banned for using it? Jagex would have no way of knowing unless they breached privacy. *NUDGE*. Kinda like people using my DGSweeper... Jagex can't tell. What momma don't know can't hurt her.

The problem is that, if this highscore table was public, Jagex needs only to read the names straight off the highscore table and ban 'em all (that is, if they're that determined to destroy F2P).

[Jonanananas]

Actually, when I first started playing Runescape, I was checking the hiscores quite often. I looked up my friend, trying to beat him, and that was provided with me goals. When I was bored, I'd go around exploring, questing or whatever.

 

It's definitely not clear to say how much thisis going to hurt the amount of new players coming into the game, but just basing it off your personal experience is kind of ignorant and short-sighted.

 

 

I think what we all can agree on is this:

 

1.This *will* make the game more unattractive for new players by a certain amount

2.A certain amount of old players will be fed up enough to stop their subscription

3.Another certain amount might at least be fed up enough to stop telling other people about Runescape or might talk negatively

 

4.A certain amount of players will feel the pressure to remain on the highscores, be it after they have achieved huge goals and quit, or if they're f2p.

 

 

The only question is business wise, does the first section outweigh the second one? I think it will in the long run, but that's down to opinion, seeing that we don't have any accessible facts.

 

It's pretty foolish to call me 'arrogant' and 'short sighted' when you're making bogus statements to support your point of view that you don't support Jagex's move. You'd actually need a certain level of high scores to check against so you'll have taken some time in achieving those goals to appear there in the first place. You won't have achieved those by at least exploring the game and achieving at least some quests first. Nobody starts RS going 'oo high scores'. A genuine newcomer goes along 'Whats that then? Where's that go? How do I get there? What do I do with this........'I died again'.

 

Your other facts are also fabricated and I don't agree with them. There's not proof that this will make the game unnatractive to new players. Thats your point of view as an experienced player. A newbie won't have the experience of having the scores taken away from them so they've no axe to grind with Jagex. Its 'Oh right I have to get members for that then'. The only players that will *genuinely* stop subscription will be minimal. The rest of it is hot air that's all been said before. Pressure from high scores? That's if you're foolish enough to let yourself be under some sort of pressure. There's much more to the game than just high scores.

 

I did like the negative discussion about the game point though. What's new? Check out these forums. It's the same old whingefest from the same old people. Perhaps some of them should make good on their promises to leave. It'll be better for the game.

 

First of all, just to clarify - I called your reasoning short-sighted and arrogant, not yourself. Not intended to be a personal attack ;)

 

Again, you are argumenting from your own point of view. When I started playing runescape, the highscores *were* relevant to me, even though it took some time to get on them. I can't say what would have happened if I didn't have access to them at that point, but it would have been different and I can imagine that it could result in some new people not getting membership when they would have before this update.

 

And of course there's pressure from the highscores, else it would have been foolish as hell from Jagex to do this move. After all, you can see that there is negativity towards this update, and with nothing positive to balance that(i.e. more people subscribing/staying subscribed) it would be stupid even to do that.

I personally haven't cared about highscores for a long time now, but other people obviously do.

 

Not quite sure what you mean with your last point honestly. Aren't people allowed to vent their frustration about an update while still continuing to play? Or is this about people saying "I quit!" and then being back a week later?

[NukeMarine]

If we're going off personal history with the high scores, then to me high scores would be irrelevant in my early playing. Even as a member, I didn't stress the high scores then and only look at it now as more a curiosity. Let me put it this way, early on in members I was getting into merchanting Unid Herbs big time. Asked another friend who he sells to that I can sell also. So he gave me a name. The guy never seemed to be logged on or are not public. Asked him why and he said to look at the high scores, and that's how I found out about Zezima.

 

Amusing anecdote aside, I don't know if other new players will or will not care about high scores. I would think a better introduction in lines of Tutorial Island would still work better if we're talking about hooking new players. The high scores change is just ticking off legacy players, and legitimately so.

[Formerly_Deathknell]

What concerns me in the tightwire act that Jagex has to do now. With so few new players coming in, they have to be care who They go around pissing off. Now isn't the time to be playing it so fast and loose.

[Mercifull]

How do you know how few new players are joining the game? Are you privvy to information that noone else in this thread is? If not then you are just speculating.

[Formerly_Deathknell]

How do you know how few new players are joining the game? Are you privvy to information that noone else in this thread is? If not then you are just speculating.

 

I don't have the exact numbers, but there have been posts on other threads about the amount of new players signing up and such and it has significantly dropped off over the past couple years. It's hardly speculation and very widely accepted.

[pal2002]

How do you know how few new players are joining the game? Are you privvy to information that noone else in this thread is? If not then you are just speculating.

I've posted trends and traffic rankings but apprently hard numbers are all wrong too.

 

Honestly, go to lol, starcraft, and wow boards and feel the energy there. Now to go to rsof ( or even sadly right here on tif) and just see how different it is. Frankly, how dead it is compare to anything else.

 

For sc2 specifically, watch the live tournament ($120,000 prizes) this weekend and just feel how alive it is...

Majorleaguegaming.com

[Bxpprod]

THe "hard numbers" you have posted in regards to traffic - not signups - pertain only to the usage of the one search engine. You aren't the first to have postage those "hard numbers", and funnily enough, those threads were removed as well.

[pal2002]

THe "hard numbers" you have posted in regards to traffic - not signups - pertain only to the usage of the one search engine. You aren't the first to have postage those "hard numbers", and funnily enough, those threads were removed as well.

No, actually, I am the poster of almost all of those threads...

And no, they're very much right here if you would like me to bump them.

[Urza285]

You know normally I buy and understand the faqs and stuff they posted, but 80% of the highs scores FAQ seems to be using the bots as a scapegoat... Mind you some of the reasons seemed legit most seemed like a push to make p2p more exclusive with the botting issue as a overall.

[vesil]

I think they should just make it so active players stay on highscore so if you don't play for 2 months your kicked off until you log back in.

But with this update what it looks like to me is jagex trying to get some more money since they lost a lot that off the nuke.