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15-Nov-2011 - Coming Next Week: New Website!

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Maybe they don't want free loaders around for a very long time? Jagex wants new clients to play the f2p game, get a taste of it then pull out their credit cards. People that leech off the f2p system aren't providing anything to their company other than a strain on their resources. If someone plays a game for 12 months on f2p more than likely they won't decide on month 13 that they want to pay. This upedate just provides people less incentive to stick around for months and months without ever shelling out any money on the game.

 

If a service is completely and unconditionally free to play, making use of said service cannot be considered, under any circumstance, as freeloading. It's the very definition of unconditionally free, you know? How exactly does using an unconditionally free service make you a freeloader, nevermind a "leech"? A freeloader (or free rider) is someone who consumes a resource without paying for it. As free to play is available for free, and it being free is unconditional, there is no cost or condition to be avoided, hence you cannot freeload.

 

Of course f2p costs money for Jagex (upkeep of servers etc.), but making use of a service that they make available for free without any conditions in no way makes you a freeloader. You are not obliged to get members, after all. It's a conscious choice you make, but choosing not to do so in no way diminishes your value as a player, or a human being. Most importantly, it doesn't give you, or anyone else for that matter, the right to judge them.

 

A few other things to consider:

- for most high levelled f2p (i.e. top 250 f2p etc.), it's definately not a question of money, but of pride. Training skills in f2p is harder than in p2p, because it is less efficient and more expensive. Hence, you take greater pride in your accomplishments.

- the parents of some of the younger f2p'ers simply aren't willing to shelve out money to get members. Should those f2p'ers be downplayed because of this? No. The sad irony is that for most people that judge others based on this criterium, their parents paid for their membership somewhere along the line.

- F2p does generate an income, through ads. I would hesitate to call it profitable - because of the low amount of f2p'ers currently - but it's an income nonetheless.


The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is for Good Men to do Nothing. (Edmund Burke)

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If a service is completely and unconditionally free to play, making use of said service cannot be considered, under any circumstance, as freeloading. It's the very definition of unconditionally free, you know? How exactly does using an unconditionally free service make you a freeloader, nevermind a "leech"? A freeloader (or free rider) is someone who consumes a resource without paying for it. As free to play is available for free, and it being free is unconditional, there is no cost or condition to be avoided, hence you cannot freeload.

 

Free to play is conditional. In this case, Jagex says "alright, we'll let you play for free as long as you'd like, but while you are free you have:

1. A severely reduced bank space.

2. Severely reduced access to the game world, quests, mini-games, equipment, etc.

3. Restricted access to skills (16 of 25)

4. Not everything in the 16 usable skills is craftable.

5. If you subscribe, you lose access to benefits when the subscription ends.

 

Like it or not, companies put out free versions to coerce people into paying, and the people on here who believe Jagex's statement that they want free to play to be its own "full game," probably aren't aware that every freemium/free to play game with a membership/cash shop has said that exact same thing.


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It's good to see more and more free players quitting, and members unsubscribing -> quitting too. :thumbup:


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It's good to see more and more free players quitting, and members unsubscribing -> quitting too. :thumbup:

 

Not really. This happens on Tip.it every time an update comes out that people dislike. 65% of its opponents say "I quit! I quit!" and the other 35% say "Wow, I'm glad I quit. Jagex sucks." (Source: DeVry Institute School of Made Up Statistics) And yet the same people come back update after update. I saw one guy in here say "I may unsubscribe for the third time". Yeah, fight the power...on second thought the power's pretty cool...no wait, I have to fight them...no wait, Dominion Tower! It's a fickle, fickle bunch of people who at the end of the day will rail on Jagex for any update they do and then log right back on, kill Nex, and hand Jagex their $6 a month.

 

There's no trend here, just talk.

 

Personally I disagree with the removal of F2P hiscores. Jagex doesn't really gain anything from doing it and it bothers a lot of people. However, let's face it: few if any of you will actually quit from this update. The ones who are outraged and don't quit because of it are the ones who already quit but still enjoy hanging around Runescape forums bashing Jagex. You're entitled to your opinion but it's the same stuff every single time. I'd respect the whole "vote with your dollars" concept if anyone actually did it.


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If you are quitting please give me all your stuff ty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That'll sort the people truely quitting and those just ranting for attention.


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Mercifull <3 Suzi

"We don't want players to be able to buy their way to success in RuneScape. If we let players start doing this, it devalues RuneScape for others. We feel your status in real-life shouldn't affect your ability to be successful in RuneScape" Jagex 01/04/01 - 02/03/12

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I believe that jagex need to support the f2p players, even if they never pay for members, because nobody will play a dead game. Jagex should pay for every f2p they can because people don't play mmos that are dead. If f2p stagnates there won't be anybody to replace the leaving p2p members, numbers will dwindle. Jagex needs to support their f2p players, that doesn't mean adding new content, it means not taking their long-standing content away.


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I edit for the [Tip.It Times]. I rarely write in [My Blog]. I am an [Ex-Moderator].

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If a service is completely and unconditionally free to play, making use of said service cannot be considered, under any circumstance, as freeloading. It's the very definition of unconditionally free, you know? How exactly does using an unconditionally free service make you a freeloader, nevermind a "leech"? A freeloader (or free rider) is someone who consumes a resource without paying for it. As free to play is available for free, and it being free is unconditional, there is no cost or condition to be avoided, hence you cannot freeload.

 

Free to play is conditional. In this case, Jagex says "alright, we'll let you play for free as long as you'd like, but while you are free you have:

1. A severely reduced bank space.

2. Severely reduced access to the game world, quests, mini-games, equipment, etc.

3. Restricted access to skills (16 of 25)

4. Not everything in the 16 usable skills is craftable.

5. If you subscribe, you lose access to benefits when the subscription ends.

 

Like it or not, companies put out free versions to coerce people into paying, and the people on here who believe Jagex's statement that they want free to play to be its own "full game," probably aren't aware that every freemium/free to play game with a membership/cash shop has said that exact same thing.

That's not conditional, that's what you get for free. You could hardly argue that any time you get something for free the condition is that you don't get $1000 to go with it.


Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

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Digged around this thread abit and found a shitton of epic quotes that I'm gonna treasure forever.

 

[hide=WARNING: RATHER LONG!!!]

"The World's Most Popular Free MMORPG" indeed, gotta love that phrase.

 

> we will be making hi-scores a members-only feature

 

QqQTo.png

 

RuneScape/Jagex is officially stupid and dead.

 

This is too.. [bleep]ing.. Funny!

 

I see no reasoning being the F2P hiscores thing-a-majiggy.. But meh.

 

I think the only consolation prize is that Jagex (with their new site update) isn't spouting nonsense about it being "the world's largest free MMO" anymore. At least, I didn't notice any of that.

 

I just can't believe how dense they can be over there. Is there a Mod Herp and Mod Derp over there we don't know about?

 

I'm beginning to think, Jagex lost a lot of profit banning bots. Just sayin

 

My biggest problem is that this update will [bleep] over all the progress tracking websites. I've been member for years continuously, but usually i re-subscribe a day or two after the membership running out, that means that the tracking website will think that i have gained all my xp in a day or i'm a new user after resubscribing and re-appearing on the highscores.

 

 

After all the awesome recent updates they've decided to do this. Wow, Jagex has sunk low and i don't even know if this company is worth supporting with €6 a month.

 

Wow I am beyond words. Few people actually play for RANKS as opposed to an actual LEVEL. Ranks don't even matter until you've achieved 99 in said skill. And what about those who go and just play to PLAY but are interested in their progress?

 

And what about maxed F2P?

 

JagEx is [bleep]ing retarded, this is making me rethink even buying members for December and January (my original plan).

 

Lol'd when someone pointed out at RSOF that the new runescape logo looks like Rune$cape

 

I'd sure like to know which J-mod came up with this brilliant idea.

 

Too bad Anonymous/Lulzsec/etc. probably aren't too "interested" in gaming websites... *whistles*

 

Mod Emiliee's FAQ was a complete load of crap. I could almost smell it coming through my computer screen.

 

These people aren't mods anymore, they're the faces of corporate spin doctors and yes men. <_<

 

Very, very bad Q&A. Extremely angry about this way of communicating. Rather have bots back at this rate.

 

So... much.. fail.. logic.. *Clasps head in hands and smashes into desk*

 

F2p are bots? (Or do people prefer put some arbitrary number like 99.99999543453% of f2p on HS are bots?)

 

F2p show achievements such as 99 by being removed from hs?

 

If you go dorment you dont matter anymore? What..? I spend 8 years playing and if I ever let my membership lapse I dont 'exist' anymore...? ..I need to 'pay' to have my character even exist to other players eyes.

 

OH IM SO SORRY IM IN YOUR WAY JAGEX. =/ Maybe just ban me to make extra space on HS!! Any maxed peeps must be bots too huh? I mean f2p apparently is so why not....

 

All those ex-chars such as famous people who have died dont exist anymore..? Their legacy is meaningless..? Wipe their names.... =s WoW =s Talk about.. Wow. If they matter so little..Then how come people still remember their names. It matters jagex. How you treat people that arnt even alive anymore matters tbh. Even the unknown ones matter.

 

I cant compare my f2p skills with f2p'ers..? ..Because they f2p..? Eh? ..I sure as hell can. Are you suggesting they are inferior to me? =/ ...OOOOH RITE. They bots innit. >.> Those pesky f2pers on HS are all bots. Remove them all.... Even the active ones must be bots..! We ban all bots but any active f2per must be a bot! o_0

 

Its the same answer repeated multiple times and they never answer the obvious that dormant isnt bad, f2p arnt bots, better solutions such as an activity allowance for hs etc etc etc etc etc.

 

...I honestly cant believe I allowed myself to try and turn my opinion around for these people. I tried so hard to be happy with this bot nuke and began talking about the game to various people in rl about trying to get them to join. OMG what was I thinking..?!!! I will asap be making sure they DO NOT join members or beat the hell out of them. (I honestly nearly did get a few people to join by nagging them and saying so many good things about it lol >.> I wanted to try 'water' the game a little, like I used to in the early days. Encourage it to others etc.) I may enjoy the game itself and dislike the company but I certainly cannot recommend this to anyone due to such disrespect towards the f2p community. Aswell as officially messing up the HS which is an integrate part of the game for many people for one reason or another. (Even if its simply to use trackers and such or wtf other reasons besides direct competition.)

 

It really is a new game when they implement this update. Not for the better..

 

7 steps forward, 25 steps back.

 

I apologise to f2p and pay my respect to those who arnt even alive anymore but having their names wiped away clean to make extra space. Give proper answers and be honest would be more popular than this nonsense. If you ganna go ahead with it either way..Just be honest.

 

The reason update annoys me personally btw isnt because it even effects me tbh. It doesnt. Its because it effects others so badly that its inexcusable. Its extremely disrespectful for a game of this nature that been around so long. I also suppose its because I allowed myself to be pulled in again due to the bot nuke and give them a little faith. They got no idea about the community and how much effort people put into it. Having their names removed and pretty much branded as bots.. Its not good. The history is being wiped too and thats just very disappointing.

 

Ergh I imagine the botting community is having a good laugh at this. +1 to them tbh. Im ganna hate seeing player names disappear aswell as players such as old nite etc. History is being wiped clean to make space.

 

It's just a shame that after all these years, they simply can't be honest with their players. How about some transparency over there you dipshits?

 

QFC: [qfc]16-17-732-63382107[/qfc]

 

"Both F2P and members are adverse to this update. How did you come to the conclusion that we may like it?!"

"Removing bots from the hi-scores is very popular."

 

[hide=cannot resist]

Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png

[/hide]

 

Seriously, they should stop throwing "bots" as an excuse for everything.

 

How people defend this measure is beyond me. Jagex's justification for it is equally pathetic.

I guess some people just enjoy other's misery.

 

Doesn't Jagex know that although you can give P2P as many exclusive features as you want, taking features away from F2P that they already had is a death wish?

 

Brb quitting again for the 3rd time in the past year.

 

I played as pure F2P for well over a year before I got P2P. Ever since I've gotten a few months every year but my heart has always been in F2P. I've put well over $100 into Jagex's pockets but suddenly, because I'm not paying at this very moment, it's as if I don't exist.

[/hide]

 

If there is already this much hate and disapproval on this thread I can safely say it could only be worse in other forums.

 

I understand how every single update has everyone yelling ragequit and being glad they quit (not surprised, Jagex is a shit company anyway), but hot damn. If Jagex doesn't do anything to counter this they will lose their loyal fanbase AND their reputation. Hello? Do you want your game to die within the next year? :rolleyes:

 

Jagex has always been stupid, but this is honestly the stupidest move ever. This is made worse with demodding people that actually speak up and having the most awful customer support in the 21st century.

 

I wonder what Anon would do... oh wait, Jagex is soooooo out of their league for Anon to even give a damn. <_<

 

Also mentioned a while back...

 

That's not even the half of it. But stupid quote limit.


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Trimmed | Master Quester | Final Boss


Boss pets: Bombi | Shrimpy | Ellie | Tz-Rek Jad | Karil the Bobbled | Mega Ducklings


120s: Dungeoneering | Invention

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Woohoo! Only one quoted twice. :thumbsup:


Was Deathknell, but the password recovery never worked for me. So I'm this now. Whatever. Someone get me some damn fried chicken!

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Digged around this thread abit and found a shitton of epic quotes that I'm gonna treasure forever.

 

[hide=WARNING: RATHER LONG!!!]

"The World's Most Popular Free MMORPG" indeed, gotta love that phrase.

 

> we will be making hi-scores a members-only feature

 

QqQTo.png

 

RuneScape/Jagex is officially stupid and dead.

 

This is too.. [bleep]ing.. Funny!

 

I see no reasoning being the F2P hiscores thing-a-majiggy.. But meh.

 

I think the only consolation prize is that Jagex (with their new site update) isn't spouting nonsense about it being "the world's largest free MMO" anymore. At least, I didn't notice any of that.

 

I just can't believe how dense they can be over there. Is there a Mod Herp and Mod Derp over there we don't know about?

 

I'm beginning to think, Jagex lost a lot of profit banning bots. Just sayin

 

My biggest problem is that this update will [bleep] over all the progress tracking websites. I've been member for years continuously, but usually i re-subscribe a day or two after the membership running out, that means that the tracking website will think that i have gained all my xp in a day or i'm a new user after resubscribing and re-appearing on the highscores.

 

 

After all the awesome recent updates they've decided to do this. Wow, Jagex has sunk low and i don't even know if this company is worth supporting with 6 a month.

 

Wow I am beyond words. Few people actually play for RANKS as opposed to an actual LEVEL. Ranks don't even matter until you've achieved 99 in said skill. And what about those who go and just play to PLAY but are interested in their progress?

 

And what about maxed F2P?

 

JagEx is [bleep]ing retarded, this is making me rethink even buying members for December and January (my original plan).

 

Lol'd when someone pointed out at RSOF that the new runescape logo looks like Rune$cape

 

I'd sure like to know which J-mod came up with this brilliant idea.

 

Too bad Anonymous/Lulzsec/etc. probably aren't too "interested" in gaming websites... *whistles*

 

Mod Emiliee's FAQ was a complete load of crap. I could almost smell it coming through my computer screen.

 

These people aren't mods anymore, they're the faces of corporate spin doctors and yes men. <_<

 

Very, very bad Q&A. Extremely angry about this way of communicating. Rather have bots back at this rate.

 

So... much.. fail.. logic.. *Clasps head in hands and smashes into desk*

 

F2p are bots? (Or do people prefer put some arbitrary number like 99.99999543453% of f2p on HS are bots?)

 

F2p show achievements such as 99 by being removed from hs?

 

If you go dorment you dont matter anymore? What..? I spend 8 years playing and if I ever let my membership lapse I dont 'exist' anymore...? ..I need to 'pay' to have my character even exist to other players eyes.

 

OH IM SO SORRY IM IN YOUR WAY JAGEX. =/ Maybe just ban me to make extra space on HS!! Any maxed peeps must be bots too huh? I mean f2p apparently is so why not....

 

All those ex-chars such as famous people who have died dont exist anymore..? Their legacy is meaningless..? Wipe their names.... =s WoW =s Talk about.. Wow. If they matter so little..Then how come people still remember their names. It matters jagex. How you treat people that arnt even alive anymore matters tbh. Even the unknown ones matter.

 

I cant compare my f2p skills with f2p'ers..? ..Because they f2p..? Eh? ..I sure as hell can. Are you suggesting they are inferior to me? =/ ...OOOOH RITE. They bots innit. >.> Those pesky f2pers on HS are all bots. Remove them all.... Even the active ones must be bots..! We ban all bots but any active f2per must be a bot! o_0

 

Its the same answer repeated multiple times and they never answer the obvious that dormant isnt bad, f2p arnt bots, better solutions such as an activity allowance for hs etc etc etc etc etc.

 

...I honestly cant believe I allowed myself to try and turn my opinion around for these people. I tried so hard to be happy with this bot nuke and began talking about the game to various people in rl about trying to get them to join. OMG what was I thinking..?!!! I will asap be making sure they DO NOT join members or beat the hell out of them. (I honestly nearly did get a few people to join by nagging them and saying so many good things about it lol >.> I wanted to try 'water' the game a little, like I used to in the early days. Encourage it to others etc.) I may enjoy the game itself and dislike the company but I certainly cannot recommend this to anyone due to such disrespect towards the f2p community. Aswell as officially messing up the HS which is an integrate part of the game for many people for one reason or another. (Even if its simply to use trackers and such or wtf other reasons besides direct competition.)

 

It really is a new game when they implement this update. Not for the better..

 

7 steps forward, 25 steps back.

 

I apologise to f2p and pay my respect to those who arnt even alive anymore but having their names wiped away clean to make extra space. Give proper answers and be honest would be more popular than this nonsense. If you ganna go ahead with it either way..Just be honest.

 

The reason update annoys me personally btw isnt because it even effects me tbh. It doesnt. Its because it effects others so badly that its inexcusable. Its extremely disrespectful for a game of this nature that been around so long. I also suppose its because I allowed myself to be pulled in again due to the bot nuke and give them a little faith. They got no idea about the community and how much effort people put into it. Having their names removed and pretty much branded as bots.. Its not good. The history is being wiped too and thats just very disappointing.

 

Ergh I imagine the botting community is having a good laugh at this. +1 to them tbh. Im ganna hate seeing player names disappear aswell as players such as old nite etc. History is being wiped clean to make space.

 

It's just a shame that after all these years, they simply can't be honest with their players. How about some transparency over there you dipshits?

 

QFC: [qfc]16-17-732-63382107[/qfc]

 

"Both F2P and members are adverse to this update. How did you come to the conclusion that we may like it?!"

"Removing bots from the hi-scores is very popular."

 

[hide=cannot resist]

Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png

[/hide]

 

Seriously, they should stop throwing "bots" as an excuse for everything.

 

How people defend this measure is beyond me. Jagex's justification for it is equally pathetic.

I guess some people just enjoy other's misery.

 

Doesn't Jagex know that although you can give P2P as many exclusive features as you want, taking features away from F2P that they already had is a death wish?

 

Brb quitting again for the 3rd time in the past year.

 

I played as pure F2P for well over a year before I got P2P. Ever since I've gotten a few months every year but my heart has always been in F2P. I've put well over $100 into Jagex's pockets but suddenly, because I'm not paying at this very moment, it's as if I don't exist.

[/hide]

 

If there is already this much hate and disapproval on this thread I can safely say it could only be worse in other forums.

 

I understand how every single update has everyone yelling ragequit and being glad they quit (not surprised, Jagex is a shit company anyway), but hot damn. If Jagex doesn't do anything to counter this they will lose their loyal fanbase AND their reputation. Hello? Do you want your game to die within the next year? :rolleyes:

 

Jagex has always been stupid, but this is honestly the stupidest move ever. This is made worse with demodding people that actually speak up and having the most awful customer support in the 21st century.

 

I wonder what Anon would do... oh wait, Jagex is soooooo out of their league for Anon to even give a damn. <_<

 

Also mentioned a while back...

 

That's not even the half of it. But stupid quote limit.

 

There's hate and disapproval on every forum. If people don't care or approve, they won't go out of their way to make a statement. You don't see protests for a government doing a good job, do you?

 

Again, Jagex has "lost their loyal fanbase AND their reputation" with about every other update since the game started. Dwarven Army Axe? There goes Jagex's reputation. Remove free trade? Jagex is now the devil. Add free trade back? Bots destroy the game, Jagex will be dead within the hour. New HP bar? Game is ruined Jagex, I quit. And every time one of these updates happens, people say the exact same things along with "it's not like the other times!". It is. Most members will find something else to be annoyed about and hand Jagex their $5.

 

I'm glad to see that you're listed as retired, which means you have the courage to back up saying "I quit", but why still spend time on a game forum criticising the game? Most people in that position say "I love the game too much to see it get ruined and I want to see it changed for the better" but like you said "Jagex has always been stupid" and "Jagex is a shit company anyway". How did they make a game that captured so much of your time then? If they were a stupid shit company then they wouldn't be able to provide a product that people enjoy. They have poor customer support, as do most other large companies. They make decisions that not everyone likes, as do most other large companies. Is your definition of a "shit company" one that cannot flawlessly provide a perfect service, talk to you like a true friend, and make decisions that all of their thousands of subscribers agree with? I think you'll find fault with every company then. Jagex has consistently turned a profit and paid out tons of dividends. Financially, they're no slouch.

 

But of course that's because they sold their soul for money right? Not according to the 58,000 people online right now compared to the few dozen complaining on the forums. Except perhaps with Free Trade Removal, there's never been an update that the majority of the population of the game hated. Do you know how you know? Kids. If something truly gets under the skin of the entire playerbase, raging angry 13 year olds descend upon the forum with the all caps rants that possibly originated the phrase "Jamflax". I remember that even during the worst updates, the biggest concerns on the rants forums were lagging and losing items and cannons at rock crabs stopping people from training their pures.

 

Everything I've seen about this update is reasoned discussion over the point of removing the F2P high scores, which is also what I've seen with almost every other update. There's no massive uprising against Jagex for not letting F2P see high scores. Point to whatever poll you want saying "but 86% of people disapprove of it!", but of course they disapprove. They're in a thread about an update they dislike, aren't they? I sincerely doubt a majority of Runescape's population supports this update but I'd be willing to bet a majority doesn't know and/or doesn't care. It's a pointless, petty update with questionable reasoning. That much we agree on. But until it affects the immature majority of Runescape, Jagex will not lose a great deal of subscribers.

 

The subscribers they do lose? They're generally the big time ones. Community icons. I saw you wrote two AoW guides on F2P skills. You're a bigger contributer to the community than your standard Xx1hitnoobsxX, and I think you're aware of that. You're a smarter than average guy about the game and assume correctly that you can speak with considerable authority about it on this site. The problem with that is that the wider community does not care. Do you think a majority of Runescape has ever been to this site for something besides a quest guide? It's a downfall of modern society that the well reasoned voices go unheard by the masses, but it's a reality. For all the logical reasons against this update, it doesn't matter to Jagex if the masses don't care.

 

The unmoddings are a seperate topic that has a seperate thread, but seeing as how I already have a wall going here I may as well talk about it. Here again is the problem of how many people actually care. Tip.it cares, as do other big fansites and possibly some of the RSOF. Realistically? Most people never knew Jiblix or Ken. Their demodding does not affect public opinion of Jagex outside of fansites and the few on the RSOF who witnessed it.

 

Anonymous wouldn't do anything to Jagex. They think Runescape is a joke. Leave this site and go to any non-Runescape fansite. The reaction is usually "lolrunescape". Runescape is irrelevent outside this fansite. Is it because Jamflax removed the F2P highscores and removed the wilderness and joined Moammar Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein in stepping on kittens? No, because of the community. Runescape's community attracts quite a lovely crowd. The type that watch MLG as an actual sport and worship PKers. The 13 year old kids who buy gold with their parent's credit card and yell into the mic on Xbox Live. On the other hand, there are people who take the game very seriously. To the rest of the internet, who probably moved on to different games near the start of high school, those people are just as comical in spite of their maturity. Anonymous, if it even cares about Runescape at all, probably laughs at it.

 

Runescape will last as long as there is a steady supply of players. If the game dies, it will be from outside competition. Eventually someone will find to beat Jagex at their own game. The high level players will get bored of Runescape and go play something more challenging with more endgame content. The lower level players will find something easier. And the mid level players? They'll look at the gap between new players and veterans and quit on the spot. The wider part of the player base is unconcerned with criticisms about these updates, however well written they are.


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If a service is completely and unconditionally free to play, making use of said service cannot be considered, under any circumstance, as freeloading. It's the very definition of unconditionally free, you know? How exactly does using an unconditionally free service make you a freeloader, nevermind a "leech"? A freeloader (or free rider) is someone who consumes a resource without paying for it. As free to play is available for free, and it being free is unconditional, there is no cost or condition to be avoided, hence you cannot freeload.

 

Free to play is conditional. In this case, Jagex says "alright, we'll let you play for free as long as you'd like, but while you are free you have:

1. A severely reduced bank space.

2. Severely reduced access to the game world, quests, mini-games, equipment, etc.

3. Restricted access to skills (16 of 25)

4. Not everything in the 16 usable skills is craftable.

5. If you subscribe, you lose access to benefits when the subscription ends.

 

Like it or not, companies put out free versions to coerce people into paying, and the people on here who believe Jagex's statement that they want free to play to be its own "full game," probably aren't aware that every freemium/free to play game with a membership/cash shop has said that exact same thing.

The limitations you're citing aren't conditional in this context, however (as Quyneax pointed out before me). Conditional, in this regard, would be "you can play free to play, but only for three months - after which you have to subscribe". This is not the case - the stance you quote "alright, we'll let you play for free as long as you'd like" is exactly what I meant with 'unconditional'. You can enjoy the free content for as long as you like, without condition to pay. Hence, it is unconditionally free.


The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is for Good Men to do Nothing. (Edmund Burke)

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I don't personally suscribe to the "this update will make everyone quit" mantra. I do however believe that a bunch of little stuff over time will eventually pile up on people and as the people hit their respective breaking points, they'll leave.

 

This hiscores thing is in my opinion, just another stone, maybe a larger stone, added to the scale.


Was Deathknell, but the password recovery never worked for me. So I'm this now. Whatever. Someone get me some damn fried chicken!

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Okay I'm really really sleepy and tired at this time of writing so I can't really do much fully-fledged argumentations.

 

But I will make some points.

 

Honestly things like the Dwarven Army Axe and the HP bar are just trivial crap that the same trolls on RSOF complain over every single day. But this f2p hiscore removal is something that EVERYONE can relate to, and honestly I have never seen so much disapproval for one update than ever. Probably seconded to removing free trade/wildy though.

 

Really the only reason why I played this game so much is because I honestly don't have another game to occupy my time, literally. Yep I'm just that sad. However now that I HAVE found other games to chew on (as well as finally getting a life, thank god) I have decided that Runescape is just not worth the effort anymore. I have actually quit for a few weeks before this change and thought about coming back, but this decision made by Jagex has just confirmed my initial will to quit Runescape completely.

 

Honestly the only reason why I keep coming back over to Tip.It is because of the friends I had made there, and what I have given to the fansite itself. Sadly though, depending on how the Official Wiki will turn out, these things will go to waste. I hope XP-Waste doesn't suffer either...

 

58,000 people online? Last time I checked the average was 80,000 after the nuke. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

 

Why would you consider the arguments created by those kids valid? They just rage for no goddamn reason. I myself have held back on raging for 3 goddamn years before finally breaking the final straw and letting it all loose. This is why some of my posts may appear to be troll posts for some. It's the same with those demodded players, they feel something was wrong with the game and wanted change. No matter how you look at it, it's a step in the RIGHT direction.

 

If the masses don't care, too bad, let them suffer in that demonic hell of a game until time rots for all I care.

 

This is why other sites like Anon and pretty much the entirety of real life laughs at Runescape. Its reputation in the past has been so bad it's basically unfixable by this point. Doesn't help that Runescape has a fanbase that is broken as heck.

 

As far as outsider competition goes, I can already name quite a few games and franchises that can easily give Runescape a run for its money, in both free and members versions.

 

Again I apologize if I appear to be strawmanning at certain points, it's night k?


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Okay I'm really really sleepy and tired at this time of writing so I can't really do much fully-fledged argumentations.

 

But I will make some points.

 

Honestly things like the Dwarven Army Axe and the HP bar are just trivial crap that the same trolls on RSOF complain over every single day. But this f2p hiscore removal is something that EVERYONE can relate to, and honestly I have never seen so much disapproval for one update than ever. Probably seconded to removing free trade/wildy though.

 

Really the only reason why I played this game so much is because I honestly don't have another game to occupy my time, literally. Yep I'm just that sad. However now that I HAVE found other games to chew on (as well as finally getting a life, thank god) I have decided that Runescape is just not worth the effort anymore. I have actually quit for a few weeks before this change and thought about coming back, but this decision made by Jagex has just confirmed my initial will to quit Runescape completely.

 

Honestly the only reason why I keep coming back over to Tip.It is because of the friends I had made there, and what I have given to the fansite itself. Sadly though, depending on how the Official Wiki will turn out, these things will go to waste. I hope XP-Waste doesn't suffer either...

 

58,000 people online? Last time I checked the average was 80,000 after the nuke. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

 

Why would you consider the arguments created by those kids valid? They just rage for no goddamn reason. I myself have held back on raging for 3 goddamn years before finally breaking the final straw and letting it all loose. This is why some of my posts may appear to be troll posts for some. It's the same with those demodded players, they feel something was wrong with the game and wanted change. No matter how you look at it, it's a step in the RIGHT direction.

 

If the masses don't care, too bad, let them suffer in that demonic hell of a game until time rots for all I care.

 

This is why other sites like Anon and pretty much the entirety of real life laughs at Runescape. Its reputation in the past has been so bad it's basically unfixable by this point. Doesn't help that Runescape has a fanbase that is broken as heck.

 

As far as outsider competition goes, I can already name quite a few games and franchises that can easily give Runescape a run for its money, in both free and members versions.

 

Again I apologize if I appear to be strawmanning at certain points, it's night k?

 

It's trivial to you, but there was some very legitimate outrage over it on this site and others. While everyone has the ability to use the hiscores, how many F2P will actually be that concerned about an update that doesn't take away in game content? I'd imagine some PKers who want to look up stats and of course the people going for 200M F2P experience. It's an impressive feat and it's a shame that it's being ruined by this update, but the majority of people won't care so why should Jagex? They get something like 98% of their revenue through subscription, and people subscribe for gameplay. Jagex keeps cranking out decent updates so people keep buying membership. People become members for quests, or for that shiny Dragon armor they saw. Or for new bosses. Hell, I became a member for a cat. I was a noob then, but I doubt anyone will become a member solely for hiscores. Again, this is really a petty thing for Jagex to do, but it won't piss off many people outside the forums.

 

I decided the same thing. I was at that mid-high level point where I could either go for the endgame content or quit, and I chose to quit. It had nothing to do with Jagex. My friends had stopped playing long ago, the people I met in game had moved on, and continuing to play would have meant boredom or becoming incredibly good at something I had no interest in. I stopped playing. I don't play games in general as much now, but the ones I play I enjoy more than RS.

 

That's understandable, you have an investment in the site beyond Runescape and that's worth staying for. This wiki is worrying but a wiki cannot provide quality discussion in the same way that a forum can, especially not Jagex's forums. People won't look to Tip.it for quest guides anymore, but I believe forums like these will always provide a higher quality of training advice and discussion.

 

It's also a Monday at midday, when most of Runescape's player base in the US is in school. I'm fairly sure 26,000 people didn't quit the game because they couldn't access the hiscores anymore.

 

I don't consider them valid. "Fix it Jamflax I lost my barrows" is never a valid argument, but it's what made up most of the Rants forum on the RSOF except for trolls and the occasional well-written post that didn't know about fansites. Jagex accepts that these people make up a lot of their game and will listen to their complaints however lame they are. Look at the death updates recently. This went in place while a well-written Archaeology thread sits ignored on this forum. Look at gravestones still being in the game. Jagex knows that the average high level player who went through the effort to make a well made suggestion will be more likely to sigh and bear it than a pissed off 13 year old who will cancel their membership and go play Xbox.

 

If the masses don't care, then Jagex doesn't care. I also don't see how Jagex has created a demonic hell by removing the F2P hiscores and demodding two people. Demonic hell kind of suggests demons, fire, spikes, and bad things. At the very least the game would have to be unplayable, which it isn't. It is a bad update, but exaggerating its effects only hurts the valid arguments against it. Jagex could ignore the masses and listen to the well reasoned arguments and suggestions, but then the masses would leave. Jagex gets 98% of their revenue from subscriptions, they wouldn't want the masses to leave. It would be the best community of any game most likely, for the month or so that Jagex could sustain their company off of 1000 or so players.

 

I don't think Jagex's updates affect that perception of Runescape. Maybe the style of the game has - below average graphics, boring grinding gameplay, designed for younger people - but not the updates. Jagex is responsible for that but the people who still play love them for it. The community is still the determining factor. It's funnier for an outsider to mock a 12 year old ranting at the guy who he is trying to kill in Edgeville than for them to mock Jagex removing the highscores. The Grand Exchange, for me, kind of set the stage for me to quit. I loved trading and meeting people, and now you pretty much have to join a clan or play with friends. My friends, along with most other people's friends, don't play. It was a great update, but the change in the community from then on became intolerable just as the change in the community in the Miniclip days made Runescape into a laughingstock.

 

If there's one thing this site loves, it's Runescape's grinding gameplay. I realize I may take some flak for that by not accepting that it's fun to spend a year or two in a game getting 99 in every skill, but I stand by it. To outsiders, Runescape's boring grind is what makes it an unattractive game, especially when so many other options are available.

 

I agree, there's plenty of games that can beat Jagex now, but not to the extent that they could draw away most of their playerbase. Some people may never change games: go to the Future Updates forum and look at all the lore obsessed people. Do you think they could move on to another game where they can't psychoanalyze Mahjarrat? Others just enjoy the feel of the game. Some people are completionists and can't bear the thought of leaving it. Plenty of games are far far better than Runescape and have been for a while, but Jagex still stands tall. There's too many different reasons people play.

 

It's alright. You've still made pretty good points.


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Guest jrhairychest

Listen fellas, don't try making decisions for those who still play, still want to play and still enjoy this game, hi-scores or no hi-scores. This display of sour grapes is still poisoning these forums. You seem to be enjoying telling the world how you hate Jagex so much, how you're quitting, then coming here to spread more poison. The spite you're showing inclines me to believe you don't actually want the game to survive without you in it. It will.

 

Find another game and go and play it. Then, when you realise that there are portions of the game that have to be paid for, or theres a time restriction on gameplay, go poison their forums instead.

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I'm not quitting. I'm not spitting poison. I don't have sour grapes about the high scores. I simply think that it's a bad call, a bad move, and done with blatant misdirection and I abhor the direction that Jagex is going with it.

 

I don't want the game to fail. I don't want it to die. I want Jagex to do better and I want them to be honest with us.


Was Deathknell, but the password recovery never worked for me. So I'm this now. Whatever. Someone get me some damn fried chicken!

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It's good to see more and more free players quitting, and members unsubscribing -> quitting too. :thumbup:

 

Not really. This happens on Tip.it every time an update comes out that people dislike. 65% of its opponents say "I quit! I quit!" and the other 35% say "Wow, I'm glad I quit. Jagex sucks." (Source: DeVry Institute School of Made Up Statistics) And yet the same people come back update after update. I saw one guy in here say "I may unsubscribe for the third time". Yeah, fight the power...on second thought the power's pretty cool...no wait, I have to fight them...no wait, Dominion Tower! It's a fickle, fickle bunch of people who at the end of the day will rail on Jagex for any update they do and then log right back on, kill Nex, and hand Jagex their $6 a month.

 

There's no trend here, just talk.

 

Personally I disagree with the removal of F2P hiscores. Jagex doesn't really gain anything from doing it and it bothers a lot of people. However, let's face it: few if any of you will actually quit from this update. The ones who are outraged and don't quit because of it are the ones who already quit but still enjoy hanging around Runescape forums bashing Jagex. You're entitled to your opinion but it's the same stuff every single time. I'd respect the whole "vote with your dollars" concept if anyone actually did it.

While you may feel clever for taking the predictably "correct" stance, if they did actually leave like honest people, there wouldn't be any game left for you to come back to, so I think tempting fate is pretty much the dumb thing to do here.


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Tch... I've read through the thread, and now I'm feeling nothing but sick and gravely depressed inside. Jagex has basically got rabid loyalists who can't see properly past their nose, now fighting with their fellow community members on fansites like this. I can't believe it has really come to this, and it makes me want to vomit. :-X

 

Oh well, I might as well drop my rant here, because there's no better spot for it. To save me time, here's quotes from me already losing my cool on the RSOF... :angry:

 

===========================================================================

 

From "F2P Hiscore - Petition"

RSOF [qfc]16-17-832-63376587[/qfc] @ Page 130

ADD me to your petition's SUPPORT list. :D

 

Put simply, I'm totally grossed out and sickened by Jagex's current intended move with the RSHS (RS HighScores). I get the feeling that Jagex's Staff lack control of this decision, and that strings are being pulled by current controlling investors. (If you don't get what I'm talking about, search around. There's beyond enough info out there.) :(

 

In short, I'll perma-cease playing RuneScape if they go through with this bloody, awful fiasco. Heck, and I was thinking Jagex would make themselves worthy of reclaiming their previously valid title of being the "The #1 Free MMORPG"s maker. But with a junk-brained move like this, they're going to knock themselves away from that forever. They're slapping too much of their loyal playerbase in the face, and I'm at the point where I can't take it anymore, right alongside tons of other people. :|

 

I was using Tip.It's Stat Sigs/Calcs (Yes, a Platinum-Support FanSite) and the RSHS primarily as an anti-hacking/tracking measure to help me keep a careful eye on my 100% F2P account and let me know if there was even the small, slightest change that I hadn't done. (Other people were probably doing this as well, but that's only a guess...) With this change to the RSHS into being P2P-only, that will cease being an option, blocking my avenues to watching my own account from outside of the game. I don't take to being forced to log in to keep an eye on my account. That happens to be one reason for which I quit another less-popular MMORPG, in part because of the problematic IRL issues it caused. Now that you'll hurt my favorite FanSite by doing this, I've got one more reason alongside to leave RuneScape. :angry:

 

To Jagex: Change your ways. Stop back-stabbing your players after good updates. Otherwise, you'll end up self-destructing. Drop only the bot-users, don't hurt the legit F2P/P2P players! :blink:

 

~Mr. D. V. "I'll be far from the mushroom cloud of Jagex's failure." Devnull

 

From "Coming Next Week: New Website!"

RSOF [qfc]16-17-102-63376160[/qfc] @ Page 73

So, I haven't added my verdicts yet, Jagex. Well, here they are...

 

New Website:

If you keep the CPU usage low, and didn't lose the Runes in the RuneScape logo, you might have something there. Otherwise, it shouldn't be done, period. ;)

 

RS HighScores (RSHS) becoming P2P-only:

DON'T DO THIS! F2P and P2P both use these for their Stat Sigs, Stat Calcs on FanSites, references for both friends and clans, and some even use it as anti-hacking measures that allow a player (and their friends) to watch their account when they're away and not playing the game! Drop only the bot users, and don't hurt the 100% legal F2P/P2P players! 100% F2P'ers, along with P2P'ers, who maxed their stats deserve to be eternally present. :|

 

But let alone anything regarding friends/prestige/calcs/sigs, take note of the words "ANTI-HACKING MEASURES"... I get this feeling from you, Jagex, that you really forgot this in the ugly move that you'll soon make with the RSHS list. Let alone any frivolous or social reasons, this is the core reason that can stand alone that this change should not be done! Or do you intend to basically tell black-hat hackers something like, "We've hidden tons of HighScores so that you black-hat hackers can just walk in unseen and hurt tons of people!", which would make your player count totally drop like a rock? Why, you ask? Because nobody wants to play games that are full of black-hat hackers that ruin accounts! Hell, I'll leave RuneScape, should you decide to carry this out! :angry:

 

Before I go, I note this... Your track record and future look ugly right now, Jagex. I can add that's particularly since you managed to temp-block 2 of my alts playing during this month alone... First time that's ever happened to me. Stack on all the lag, and other issues causing other people to be unable to play RuneScape, and you're looking at your self-destruction. You don't want that, trust me! :(

 

~Mr. D. V. "I won't be anywhere near Jagex's suicide!" Devnull

 

From "~ The Waiting Room ~" (2011-11-21 Edition)

RSOF [qfc]16-17-440-63391318[/qfc] @ Page 6

Waiting time, eh? :|

 

I'm thoroughly set to quit if Jagex dumps F2P from the HighScore system. Jagex should have put this all up to a poll long before they would have done it, so they could see how bad of an idea it is, both for usage and security. And that's let alone the damage it will do to clans, tracking services, stat sigs, etc., which tells you already how awful doing this will be. :wacko:

 

Honestly, I'm at the point where even the mere thought of this change sickens me. Let alone the flood of people who are sick of this, myself included, this will put me in a situation for which I quit another MMORPG. I do not take to being forced to log in to make sure my account and alternate profiles are secure. :angry:

 

[EDIT: BTW, too many people will get inflated rankings from this change. Unluckily, there will be a ton of inflated egos as well. This is going to cause a destructive atmosphere in-game, along with the forums. It doesn't matter if you intended to harm the community, Jagex; this will do it. :( ...]

 

~Mr. D. V. "Pardon me while I fall sick, drop into the waters of the internet, and drown." Devnull

 

===========================================================================

 

The big killers for me in this whole mess deal with Account Security and Community... After an MMORPG called "Dead Frontier" (which I couldn't mention directly on the RSOF by name) having put me through this pain, I won't go through it again. I simply don't handle well being forced to log in to check on my accounts' conditions. Since Jagex wants to cause me this pain, or is being string-pulled by investors who are forcing them to cause me this pain, I'll be leaving their game and permanently quitting RuneScape this time for my own good. That is, if they really decide to go through with this piece of junk regarding the HighScores. You can't call it "for the sake of dumping the bots", and then totally remove F2P HighScores and tick off both the F2P and P2P Communities, as well as cause massive undue harm in many unexpected ways. :shame:

 

~Mr. D. V. "R.I.P. Jagex & R.I.P. RuneScape, 2011-11-21" Devnull

 

 

 

(p.s.: Even if I do quit RuneScape forever, I'll still be around on Tip.It Forums... Obviously, there's no reason I should leave this community over the matter, you know! ;-) ...)


tifuserbar-dsavi_x4.jpg and normally with a cool mind.

(Warning: This user can be VERY confusing to some people... And talks in 3rd person for the timebeing due to how insane they are... Sometimes even to themself.)

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I'm going to regret asking this, but DVD: What in the world makes you believe that the security of your account will be compromised with the removal of a part of a system that tracks your experience?

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It's good to see more and more free players quitting, and members unsubscribing -> quitting too. :thumbup:

 

Not really. This happens on Tip.it every time an update comes out that people dislike. 65% of its opponents say "I quit! I quit!" and the other 35% say "Wow, I'm glad I quit. Jagex sucks." (Source: DeVry Institute School of Made Up Statistics) And yet the same people come back update after update. I saw one guy in here say "I may unsubscribe for the third time". Yeah, fight the power...on second thought the power's pretty cool...no wait, I have to fight them...no wait, Dominion Tower! It's a fickle, fickle bunch of people who at the end of the day will rail on Jagex for any update they do and then log right back on, kill Nex, and hand Jagex their $6 a month.

 

There's no trend here, just talk.

 

Personally I disagree with the removal of F2P hiscores. Jagex doesn't really gain anything from doing it and it bothers a lot of people. However, let's face it: few if any of you will actually quit from this update. The ones who are outraged and don't quit because of it are the ones who already quit but still enjoy hanging around Runescape forums bashing Jagex. You're entitled to your opinion but it's the same stuff every single time. I'd respect the whole "vote with your dollars" concept if anyone actually did it.

While you may feel clever for taking the predictably "correct" stance, if they did actually leave like honest people, there wouldn't be any game left for you to come back to, so I think tempting fate is pretty much the dumb thing to do here.

 

You may feel clever for trying to start your post off condescendingly, but the stance against "the man" isn't always the right one and everyone who doesn't agree with you isn't a Jagex shill. If they left like honest people? The game would go on. The ego on this site is hysterical. You genuinely think that the people who rant and rave at every update are the ones who are "saving the game"? I can't think of one update that was reversed due to minority complaints on fansites. It takes major upheaval to get things done, not just anyone with acceptable grammar and maxed skills who says "Jagex is evil". Biggest update that was ever undone was the free trade/wildy removal, and that was due to widespread backlash, not the complaints on this and other sites.

 

I'm still a little surprised at that. "IF THEY LEFT THE ENTIRE GAME WOULD END!" Come on. They pay the same amount of money as everyone else, their suggestions go (for the most part) ignored, and someone who plays off and on over any given update is not a harbinger of change. You agree with them and generally they make their points with great grammar and organization along with respect for other members. That does not make them special in Jagex's eyes.

 

(other guy) And people who disagree with you about the hiscores in an online game make you sick? That kind of makes me sick actually. You're aware that people are entitled to their own opinions, and they may disagree with your own? It is a terrible update but why does this mean that Jagex is an evil satan creature hellbent on destroying a game that makes them millions of dollars? You all like to assume that they're evil idiots, but who's the idiot for characterizing an entire company as (essentially) an incompetent Disney villain? That can't be idiotic; it disagrees with Jagex so therefore it's a well reasoned assumption.

 

And for the record, I haven't paid membership for several months now. Meanwhile, you're "semi-retired". Go get em, viva la semi-revolution! I'm not a Jagex loyalist, which is why I don't pay them money.

 

I apologize if I seem a little annoyed, I'm not trying to start anything with anybody but the belief that anyone who doesn't hate the establishment is an idiot is ruining essentially every topic of debate these days.


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now how will I track some 30 year old who hasn't played in 4 years

 

Through binoculars on branch in a tall tree? :thumbup:


Was Deathknell, but the password recovery never worked for me. So I'm this now. Whatever. Someone get me some damn fried chicken!

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The old manual has been transplanted into a new, wiki-based format and will form the core of the new website. With the exception of a few key pages maintained solely by Jagex staff, these pages can be edited, and visual assets can be uploaded, by RuneScape account holders who meet certain baseline requirements.

 

That is extremely unfair to RSWiki. Has something been worked out between that fansite and Jagex, I wonder?

 

Nothing has been worked out between Jagex and the existing wiki. We're really worried that they will cause problems for us, including copying our content. It's also going to cause some brand confusion because they're using the same name we've been using for six years. Not looking forward to this.


"It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man."

 

-- Jack Handey

 

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Free to play is conditional. In this case, Jagex says "alright, we'll let you play for free as long as you'd like, but while you are free you have:

1. A severely reduced bank space.

2. Severely reduced access to the game world, quests, mini-games, equipment, etc.

3. Restricted access to skills (16 of 25)

4. Not everything in the 16 usable skills is craftable.

5. If you subscribe, you lose access to benefits when the subscription ends.

 

Like it or not, companies put out free versions to coerce people into paying, and the people on here who believe Jagex's statement that they want free to play to be its own "full game," probably aren't aware that every freemium/free to play game with a membership/cash shop has said that exact same thing.

 

Jagex says "alright, we'll let you play for free as long as you'd like, and while you are free you have all these goodies:

 

1. Use of bank space

2. Access to a game world, quests, mini-games, equipment etc.

3. Access to 16 skills

4. Some of the skills are craftable

5. If you subscribe, you keep all of this when your subscription ends.

 

Its all about perception, what you are getting is free, the game is alive and well and enjoyed by many new players.


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