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Will all of rs wiki's content to be copied over to the official rs wiki?


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#21
Formerly_Deathknell
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I think if anyone did, RSWiki could contact Jagex and they would likely take it down. I do feel bad for Wiki though. Just cause Jagex is too lazy and incompetent to produce an accurate manual for their game.


You say this like the wiki is "contributed too" by incompetent morons who fill out inaccurate facts and outright lies then get angry and put them back when someone corrects it.


That sounds about right. :thumbup:
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#22
UltraMantisV2
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The official RS Wiki has a lot of errors... :|


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#23
Ginger_Warrior
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Thing is, there are clauses on both ends that prevent the verbatim copying of content over to Jagex's Wiki.

CC-BY-SA means you have to attribute the source with links (where possible), and Jagex's Wiki has a stipulation that all content you submit is your own.

If there is a ton of CC-BY-SA violations occurring on Jagex's Wiki, I expect some bad blood between Jagex and RSWiki at first. But ultimately they'll resolve it.

Yeah, I was going to mention this.

As soon as an editor on RS Wiki hits "Submit", their content has been 'given' to RS Wiki subject to a CC-BY-SA license. However, one of the conditions of said license is that although third parties are free to use whatever the license is for, the original author(s) must be accredited in any subsequent versions. Another condition (the Share-Alike part) means that if the content is used elsewhere, it must be released under the same CC-BY-SA license as the original work.

Well firstly, Jagex's Wiki does not allow authors and contributors to be named, therefore there is no means to credit someone else's work. Secondly, everything submitted to Jagex is protected under commercial copyright, therefore they're not publishing the information under SA terms.

Simply put, unless Jagex change the copyright status of information on their website, and until they provide a way of naming a work's original creators, they cannot either themselves copy information from RS Wiki, or allow others to copy information to their website on their behalf, and if RS Wiki found a case of plagiarism, Jagex are legally obliged to remove it immediately.

#24
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It could be, just like any other fan site guides and website. Just simply don't do it. Respect the creators who created the content instead of taking it for your own.

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#25
Formerly_Deathknell
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It could be, just like any other fan site guides and website. Just simply don't do it. Respect the creators who created the content instead of taking it for your own.


But amongst a community of flagrant botters, this is a naive sentiment methinks.
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#26
Ginger_Warrior
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Well, no. They can take it, just like people take stuff from Wikipedia all the time, but only under certain conditions. Tip.It is different in that content on Tip.It is protected by commercial copyright. That's where RS Wiki and fansites differ--I didn't share a CC license so I could work as a Crew member, I just gave my content to them under their copyright.

#27
The Observer
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It could be, just like any other fan site guides and website. Just simply don't do it. Respect the creators who created the content instead of taking it for your own.


But amongst a community of flagrant botters, this is a naive sentiment methinks.


Yeah, most likely.

And yeah, Ginger is right, so we're lucky in that sense.

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#28
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I feel that the KB and the RS wiki seem to hold very different purposes.

I'm really not sure why Jagex made this thing editable now...you're inviting a whole bunch of trolls, and pretty much no genuine useful information because of the very tight, closed guides Jagex produces that are aimed at totally different things (descriptions of places and skill lists, mostly) than the wiki guides (items, up to date and helpfully hinting quest guides, skill training and other guides).


The RSKB was fairly inaccurate to begin with tbh. Some of their quests guides weren't bad, but honestly... my first thought was that they made it a community run wiki because A) the community as a whole knows more about the game and can make a better guide then Jagex can (or at least then Jagex will, judging by the old KB) and B) any errors in it aren't Jagex's fault.

who the balls would use the official wiki over the original rs wiki?


Someone who is unaware of fansites? Jagex seems to be trying to update their site to remove the incentive for players to go look for fansites.

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#29
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who the balls would use the official wiki over the original rs wiki?

As Sir_Squab said, it's mostly about new members. The main reason people use fan sites now is because at one point or another they wanted or need a resource to help them with the game. They needed a quest guide or information about a monster or a map of a location, etc. NEW users will now have this information available to them on the wiki so there are less reasons to go hunting for a different fan site.
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#30
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So will they be continuing to support the fansites they've already acknowledged, or will this be the first step towards distancing themselves from fansites altogether?

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#31
Formerly_Deathknell
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So will they be continuing to support the fansites they've already acknowledged, or will this be the first step towards distancing themselves from fansites altogether?


It's Jagex. Say one thing and do another. Duh. :rolleyes:
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#32
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So will they be continuing to support the fansites they've already acknowledged, or will this be the first step towards distancing themselves from fansites altogether?


I'd say it's too early to tell. Jagex's Wiki is obviously immature, and it may prove challenging to find dedicated, reliable, accurate editors. The fansites that exist are already well-established and have consistent, reliable content editors to their teams. Jagex is definitely acting like it's of two minds with this going forward, but pray for the best, prepare for the worst, and don't take your eyes of what they're doing.

I mean, heck - I see no reason to sound an alarm when this little gem is still on the Wiki (as of 25 Nov @ 10:13PM MST):

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#33
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Thing is, there are clauses on both ends that prevent the verbatim copying of content over to Jagex's Wiki.

CC-BY-SA means you have to attribute the source with links (where possible), and Jagex's Wiki has a stipulation that all content you submit is your own.

If there is a ton of CC-BY-SA violations occurring on Jagex's Wiki, I expect some bad blood between Jagex and RSWiki at first. But ultimately they'll resolve it.

Yeah, I was going to mention this.

As soon as an editor on RS Wiki hits "Submit", their content has been 'given' to RS Wiki subject to a CC-BY-SA license. However, one of the conditions of said license is that although third parties are free to use whatever the license is for, the original author(s) must be accredited in any subsequent versions. Another condition (the Share-Alike part) means that if the content is used elsewhere, it must be released under the same CC-BY-SA license as the original work.

Well firstly, Jagex's Wiki does not allow authors and contributors to be named, therefore there is no means to credit someone else's work. Secondly, everything submitted to Jagex is protected under commercial copyright, therefore they're not publishing the information under SA terms.

Simply put, unless Jagex change the copyright status of information on their website, and until they provide a way of naming a work's original creators, they cannot either themselves copy information from RS Wiki, or allow others to copy information to their website on their behalf, and if RS Wiki found a case of plagiarism, Jagex are legally obliged to remove it immediately.


Isn't the vast majority of stuff on RS Wiki covered by Jagex's copyright anyways (pictures of ingame items/etc)?

Materials (including without limit all information, software, data, text, photographs, graphics, sound and video) placed on any Jagex Product by us or on our behalf are protected by copyright and other intellectual property rights of ourselves or our business partners / suppliers / advertisers. You may not use these materials or any Jagex Product except in accordance with these terms and conditions and for personal (i.e. non-commercial) use only.

You agree that all intellectual property or other rights in any game character, account and items are and will remain our property. Jagex owns all rights in the Jagex Products, and you are only granted permission to use such products, subject to and in accordance with these Terms and Conditions.

By posting chat or other materials on any Jagex Product, you grant us a non-exclusive, perpetual, royalty free, worldwide licence to use and/or modify such materials on any Jagex Product as we see fit. You waive any moral rights to the extent allowed by law.

You agree that by submitting any material of any kind to us for any purpose connected with any Jagex Product (non-exhaustive examples are suggestions and ideas for any game or contributions to any Gallery page), you are giving us a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free licence to use and/or modify the submitted materials as we see fit. You agree to waive any moral rights to the extent permitted by law and that you will not withdraw the submission or attempt to make a charge for its use. Furthermore you guarantee that you are the exclusive copyright holder in relation to the submission and that the submission in no way breaches the rights of any other person or entity.


Can I make a fansite?

Yes, of course. We encourage the creation of fan sites and many of our players use them to gain information about our game.
There are a few pointers that you need to follow:
You must visibly acknowledge that the images are the property of Jagex Ltd, and that Jagex and RuneScape are registered trademarks of Jagex Limited, and you must provide a link to the official http://www.RuneScape.com website.
The images or our trademarks must NOT under any circumstances be used on or in conjunction with any website which encourages or helps users infringe our Terms and Conditions or breach the Rules of RuneScape. Using them on a scamming, hacking, password stealing, or cheating website is NOT allowed.
You must not use these images or our trademarks in a deliberately deceptive way. Your website must not portray itself as an official RuneScape website. Allowing you to use these images does not mean we endorse your website.
We may withdraw your permission to use these images at any time if we feel you are misusing them.


Can I use articles from the RuneScape or Jagex websites?

In all cases we retain copyright ownership and the right of approval in advance of you using any copyright material. We also retain the right to request anyone to remove the material.
All rights, including copyright and database right, in the RuneScape, FunOrb and Jagex websites and their contents, are owned by Jagex Ltd., or otherwise used by Jagex as permitted by applicable law.


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#34
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Thing is, there are clauses on both ends that prevent the verbatim copying of content over to Jagex's Wiki.

CC-BY-SA means you have to attribute the source with links (where possible), and Jagex's Wiki has a stipulation that all content you submit is your own.

If there is a ton of CC-BY-SA violations occurring on Jagex's Wiki, I expect some bad blood between Jagex and RSWiki at first. But ultimately they'll resolve it.

Yeah, I was going to mention this.

As soon as an editor on RS Wiki hits "Submit", their content has been 'given' to RS Wiki subject to a CC-BY-SA license. However, one of the conditions of said license is that although third parties are free to use whatever the license is for, the original author(s) must be accredited in any subsequent versions. Another condition (the Share-Alike part) means that if the content is used elsewhere, it must be released under the same CC-BY-SA license as the original work.

Well firstly, Jagex's Wiki does not allow authors and contributors to be named, therefore there is no means to credit someone else's work. Secondly, everything submitted to Jagex is protected under commercial copyright, therefore they're not publishing the information under SA terms.

Simply put, unless Jagex change the copyright status of information on their website, and until they provide a way of naming a work's original creators, they cannot either themselves copy information from RS Wiki, or allow others to copy information to their website on their behalf, and if RS Wiki found a case of plagiarism, Jagex are legally obliged to remove it immediately.


Isn't the vast majority of stuff on RS Wiki covered by Jagex's copyright anyways (pictures of ingame items/etc)?
--snip--


It's called "fair use". Yes, pictures belong to Jagex. No, actual writing doesn't belong to Jagex. (Again, pics are covered by fair use.)

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#35
NukeMarine
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Isn't the vast majority of stuff on RS Wiki covered by Jagex's copyright anyways (pictures of ingame items/etc)?
--snip--


It's called "fair use". Yes, pictures belong to Jagex. No, actual writing doesn't belong to Jagex. (Again, pics are covered by fair use.)

No, fair use does not apply these cases. Critique, parody, scholarly work, or education are some of the limited cases that allow fair use. People add Jagex's images to their websites because it makes it look better and generates traffic. Jagex allows that for their own reasons (good business sense most likely).

Still, good call about the writing on RS Wiki not belonging to Jagex. I don't even think the derivative work portion of copyright applies in that case.

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#36
Ginger_Warrior
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Isn't the vast majority of stuff on RS Wiki covered by Jagex's copyright anyways (pictures of ingame items/etc)?
--snip--


It's called "fair use". Yes, pictures belong to Jagex. No, actual writing doesn't belong to Jagex. (Again, pics are covered by fair use.)

No, fair use does not apply these cases. Critique, parody, scholarly work, or education are some of the limited cases that allow fair use. People add Jagex's images to their websites because it makes it look better and generates traffic. Jagex allows that for their own reasons (good business sense most likely).

You're half right, but half wrong. There's no requirement for it to be any of the things you mentioned above, so long as the original commercial purpose of the image is preserved; that is, I'm not allowed to use the image in a way that would replace its original purpose.

The rationale for using non-free images is that first and foremost, there is no free alternative available. Unless Jagex release a load of images into the public domain or under a CC non-commercial license, it's hard to argue that there's a free alternative available to fansites. Secondly, you need to be able to argue that without using the non-free image in the work, the reader's understanding of the work's subject would be greatly undermined. For a RuneScape example, it's very easy to argue that for an article on Jad which talks about his attack animations and how they are predicted, an image of Jad and his attack animations is needed for the reader to gain a comprehensive understanding of the article's subject. This is known as contextual significance--you're right in saying it has to be more than 'making the article look better', but for RS Wiki and other fansites it is about more than that already. Thirdly, copyrighted material published under the fair use clause has to be used minimally. I'm not allowed to publish twenty images of Jad's ranged attack, when one would suffice. There's a number of other criteria as well but mostly it's common sense (describe the rationale, be mindful of where it's published etc.).

Even if Jagex didn't like it, some of the images (not all, admittedly) meet the fair use clause.

#37
NukeMarine
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Isn't the vast majority of stuff on RS Wiki covered by Jagex's copyright anyways (pictures of ingame items/etc)?
--snip--


It's called "fair use". Yes, pictures belong to Jagex. No, actual writing doesn't belong to Jagex. (Again, pics are covered by fair use.)

No, fair use does not apply these cases. Critique, parody, scholarly work, or education are some of the limited cases that allow fair use. People add Jagex's images to their websites because it makes it look better and generates traffic. Jagex allows that for their own reasons (good business sense most likely).

You're half right, but half wrong. There's no requirement for it to be any of the things you mentioned above, so long as the original commercial purpose of the image is preserved; that is, I'm not allowed to use the image in a way that would replace its original purpose.

The rationale for using non-free images is that first and foremost, there is no free alternative available. Unless Jagex release a load of images into the public domain or under a CC non-commercial license, it's hard to argue that there's a free alternative available to fansites. Secondly, you need to be able to argue that without using the non-free image in the work, the reader's understanding of the work's subject would be greatly undermined. For a RuneScape example, it's very easy to argue that for an article on Jad which talks about his attack animations and how they are predicted, an image of Jad and his attack animations is needed for the reader to gain a comprehensive understanding of the article's subject. This is known as contextual significance--you're right in saying it has to be more than 'making the article look better', but for RS Wiki and other fansites it is about more than that already. Thirdly, copyrighted material published under the fair use clause has to be used minimally. I'm not allowed to publish twenty images of Jad's ranged attack, when one would suffice. There's a number of other criteria as well but mostly it's common sense (describe the rationale, be mindful of where it's published etc.).

Even if Jagex didn't like it, some of the images (not all, admittedly) meet the fair use clause.

Well, let's look deeper into this. If Celebrity A is walking down the street and I take a snapshot, I not only own but can use that image. If others try to utilize that image for profit there can be some lawsuits afoot. Here we have this computer game where Jagex creates a method that's equivalent of a real world and you take a Snapshot of the Jad. It's still my computer creating all the situations that lead to the image. Guess you could say I own that image just like I'd own an image of Justin Bieber taking a nose dive into a Camero had a grabbed that shot. BUT (big letters meaning something important about to follow) that does not give me free fair use of all Justin Bieber's images or of the Jad's. So, using Knowledge base or images provided by Jagex may not fit your fair use argument, but digital world images may actually work in a legal sense.

Personally, I'm for liberal interpretation of fair use. Snapshots, short videos, small paragraphs and such that offer descriptive ability are cool in my book. However, we're dealing with laws that act with the insanity that "Hey, we want to put our image EVERYWHERE in public, but if you film in public with our image that we PURPOSELY put out there, then you need to blur or cut it out." See, I'm a bitter old man that's put up with this crap for a long time. I can agree with the concept but the reality just irks me. In my former response, I was referring to the concept. The reality though I completely concede your point. The courts may have a different tact.

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#38
Ginger_Warrior
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Well, this is the part I've never understood about Jagex's policy on images taken in-game using somebody else's equipment. You're right in that if I take a picture of Justin Beiber on my smartphone, I haven't broken his parent's commercial copyright. However, if I take a picture of Jad using my print screen button, I've broken Jagex's commercial copyright short of a fair use rationale. I can understand that the concept of "Jad" and his artwork and any images taken by Jagex themselves may be protected under copyright when published on the main RuneScape website (see the point I made on original commercial purpose), but I don't understand why images I've taken using my computer stored on my hard drive are also protected under copyright.

The whole point of copyright laws were to protect people's financial interests. If RS Wiki applied all the fair use criteria I mentioned in my previous post, and only kept it to minimal use, I don't see how they're frustrating Jagex as a money-making business. If anything; an image posted under fair use rationale with its copyrighted status clearly marked on another website, where it's being stored and shown to the viewing public completely free of charge to Jagex, it probably helps their financial interests in terms of free brand placement. I suspect that's why Jagex have been so blase on the issue of enforcing that copyright not just on RS Wiki, but here (bestiary images are no different in terms of procurement--I should know having worked on there for over a year) and every other fansite.

Anyway, we're digressing. The point is, wikis are simply a collaboration of many editors' content, with each of their edits licensed for the wiki to publish under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 arrangement. This Commons license is completely incompatible with Jagex's own wiki's copyright status, therefore no content from RS Wiki may be copied at all right now.

#39
Erewhon2
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Both sites have been very clear about copyright and that should be upheld by everyone.

On topic but slightly at a tangent, I have to say that Runescape's own wiki does not appeal to me. I've had a look around and I don't like it's layout, it is still new so maybe it will improve in time but at this stage I can't see me using it much, if at all. :???:
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#40
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who the balls would use the official wiki over the original rs wiki?

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