Tip.It Times - 25th December 2011

[Carl]

So essentially you've posted a "Year in review" from one forum and some of your friends - without actually playing the game itself and speaking with the people who also actively play the game? As we know, Tip.It has a lot of folks who no longer play RS, but still add the negative input when it comes to updates, etc. Despite the thousands that like it -- in-game, playing it you choose to write a review from the people who don't and aren't playing and call it the "Majority". You've got to be kidding me?

 

Also, kudos to reply #15, Kimberly's reply. :thumbup:

 

This was funny. Once again, you've managed to throw around a few accusations, and I can only congratulate you for being so persistent in posting unhelpful lies on this thread. I posted my year in review on the back of a year's observations in the vast RSOF and some from Tip.It, and some conversations with in-game friends about their observations/opinions, whilst remaining semi-active myself. Your entire post was entirely incorrect. I've never stated intentionally that my review was based on a majority, but it was as close as I or anyone else for that matter could get to a representative majority.

 

As for reply #15, if you'd be so kind as to read and digest my earlier response to you, or even scroll down to Jona's response to Kimberley, then you may find some errors of understanding in reply #15 that have been highlighted. The key word is 'during'.

 

Very poor "Majority" to sample from, don't you think? I'm almost positive everyone replying here can get a more accurate group to sample from and call them the representative majority. And you say you're semi-active...As a F2Per?

 

I did read fully and digest your earlier response; it's in my above quote...The replies are bolded. I had read every post in the thread, don't think trying to be a smart-ass will get you anywhere. :thumbup:

[Kimberly]

The issue lies with the fact that your conclusion is flawed and in terms of reviewing a year, you are not giving proper attention to other major updates that have changed how people play the game, which would have drastically altered your conclusion otherwise.

 

So like I said, it's a poor review of the year, but if you don't view it as a year in review but rather some of the biggest controversial moments of the year, then maybe the conclusion could make sense.

 

It's a bit like saying all of England is full of riotous, angry students and are collapsing because I only payed attention to the one month the riots were rampant. It's incorrect to do so, it's ill advised, and it generally makes you seem silly. Saying then that your 'methodology' is only to look at the emotions and then vastly ignore the majority of emotional episodes throughout the year--all the while while claiming to review the year and then be so bold as to say the year was bad as a result of your 'analysis' is...well, it just doesn't make sense.

[Crocefisso]

training agility, Nex which people love, clan support, RoTM, some big usability updates

 

If your refutation of my conclusion and devaluation of the article as a whole are based on these, especially when clan support is really quite middle of the road as an update, and that somehow these little things outweigh the experience of bots etc for players during 2011, I cannot agree with your assertions. Otherwise, please do name some counterbalances to the bots, MLP, RAFP, P2P hiscores.

[quitthegame]

For example, if we look at botting in a rational and detached manner, it looks very positive: lots of players online, lots of revenues for Jagex, but a little bit of economic pressures on players does not really encapsulate the reactions of the general playerbase that I was exposed to.

 

I said I was done with this thread, because at this point the central disagreement is out there, and it's better to agree to disagree.

 

But, there's no way I can let a statement that bots are rationally good for RuneScape go unchallenged. RuneScape is a bit of grindy game, I think we can all agree on that. Whether one personally agrees or disagrees that this style suits their gameplay, I think we can all agree that this makes using bots more advantageous than it would in a less grindy game. In this short run, this leads to more profits for Jagex, but in the medium and long run my rational forecast is that nonbotters would stop playing in large numbers because of the unfairness, and that this would remove the market for RWT bots, and remove the incentive to play for those whose only reason for playing was to be better than those who played legitimately. All you'd have left would be those pkers and bossers who would use bots to get their stats up high enough to pk/boss, obviously they would stop botting once they had enough gp/skills to do that. In a rational and detached manner, I doubt that this would be a profitable situation for Jagex, although the possibility is out there that perhaps it might be. The possibility is slim, because even if that situation were theoretically profitable, there's a strong possibility that it would just lead to the stolen credit card problem again, where the credit card carriers would threaten to disallow CC payments to Jagex again, or whatever happened before that led to free trade removal. (a lot of botters paid for their memberships by rwt gold for cash. If all the legit players quit RS, then there's no market for rwt. Then the botters use stolen CC's to play. The questions of what % of legit players you need to make the system work is a complicated one, but I assume Jagex knows.)

 

Seriously though guys, think about agreeing to disagree at this point. When it comes to forums, if you're not going forwards, then you're going backwards.

Edited December 28, 2011 by delapaz

[Kimberly]

training agility, Nex which people love, clan support, RoTM, some big usability updates

 

If your refutation of my conclusion and devaluation of the article as a whole are based on these, especially when clan support is really quite middle of the road as an update, and that somehow these little things outweigh the experience of bots etc for players during 2011, I cannot agree with your assertions. Otherwise, please do name some counterbalances to the bots, MLP, RAFP, P2P hiscores.

 

The counterbalances were named and described. If you wanted things to even out, the two biggest updates of the year, did that (aka free trade and bot removal). And everything else after that is what attributes more to an overall positive experience for the average player. Nex appeased the high-leveled player in a way we haven't seen since the release of the Corporeal Beast in 2008. We saw some great quality quests, though unfortunately the shining gem in that particular crown seemed to be One Piercing Note and not RotM. Several of the more grindy skills saw more enjoyable methods of training released. The Loyalty Program, although part of the micro-issues, turned out to be very helpful in levelling to the longer term players. The usability update allowed a dramatic change in playing style for the average player, meaning remapping your keys was no longer absolutely essential for ease of skilling/playing. While the clan update did fall flat, it has the framework to go beyond; I won't say it's the best but currently it's very handy to record kill/death ratios which was only possible before that within clan wars (a very inferior warring field). And who can forget the toolbelt, which really had a huge impact on the game in the smallest ways that will surely snowball over time as content is adjusted and designed around it. Etc etc etc. I'm not sure how that was not clear in my previous post in the least. This year saw more release of content that had longer lasting affects on the game aside from new skills in a while. I also don't think that's possible to debate.

 

We saw a really big re-emergence of micro-niggling that Iddison's generation tried and failed on. They're now seeing greater success in that respect. It's unknown if they're more successful because of the content they're releasing on the side. If you argue that the big crowd-pleasers are the blinders to hide these implications, I'd tend to agree with you. But again, you said you were describing the emotions by the (again, bolded) average player, who doesn't give a fig about doomsday cries in the night and cares more about the immediate playing experience--which they delivered on this year without question.

 

But Delpaz is right. I'm not really sure why things have to be fought tooth and nail to get a point across and have it sink in though.

[Hamtaro]

This is really all coming down to personal opinion (i.e. Who is to decide what is and isn't a major update?). For instance, introducing Nex into the game didn't affect me at all. I don't boss hunt and I will never be able to afford Torva. Therefore, I have no reason to even consider it an update, let alone a major one. Was it actually a significant update? Perhaps, perhaps. Was it worth noting in an article? Probably not, seeing as it would only affect extremely high level players who can fight Nex and afford the armor and lower levels who "merch." However, the article written was an Editorial. That is, it is the author's opinion in the article (in this case, what is and isn't a major update).

 

That whole discussion is rather pointless, though. Instead of discussing what was included in the article, the discussion has branched off into what wasn't in the article. Unless you want to get into semantics (which I won't because I'm not a pedant), that has absolutely nothing to do with the article that was written. In hindsight, perhaps more things could have been included, but it would be senseless to include every single update in 2011 into the article. If that's what you're looking for, this is the link for you.

Otherwise, try giving your opinion like this:

Hmm, I really liked/disliked the article about 2011 because _____. However, I really felt like Nex and RotM were also major updates because _____.

Instead of this:

Wow that article didn't even mention Nex or RotM. Why wouldn't you even include those in an article about 2011? They were such huge updates that the author missed the point entirely.

The first choice I gave dictates a person's personal preference with their own justifications (how this thread should be going), whereas the second choice is just short of an ad hominem attack (how this thread is going). With that second type of response, it doesn't take into account what was written, but only what wasn't. That's not how these threads (that are, you know, supposed to be about the articles that were written this week) should be going at all. I'm a little disappointed that the discussion has come to this without moderator intervention, but come on :| . Agree to disagree if you must, but please try to keep the further comments relevant to what was actually written.

[Carl]

This is really all coming down to personal opinion (i.e. Who is to decide what is and isn't a major update?). For instance, introducing Nex into the game didn't affect me at all. I don't boss hunt and I will never be able to afford Torva. Therefore, I have no reason to even consider it an update, let alone a major one. Was it actually a significant update? Perhaps, perhaps. Was it worth noting in an article? Probably not, seeing as it would only affect extremely high level players who can fight Nex and afford the armor and lower levels who "merch." However, the article written was an Editorial. That is, it is the author's opinion in the article (in this case, what is and isn't a major update).

 

That whole discussion is rather pointless, though. Instead of discussing what was included in the article, the discussion has branched off into what wasn't in the article. Unless you want to get into semantics (which I won't because I'm not a pedant), that has absolutely nothing to do with the article that was written. In hindsight, perhaps more things could have been included, but it would be senseless to include every single update in 2011 into the article. If that's what you're looking for, this is the link for you.

 

Who is to decide what is and isn't a major update? Personal opinion? Hamtaro, we've been told by the author that this information was collaborated from different sources (Tip.It forums, RuneScape forums, and apparently in-game chats). Unless he is targeting new players to chat with about the game, then it's horribly flawed. Essentially he's applying a negative theme to the year, thus picking out particularly negative updates without focusing on the game-changing ones we've seen that have been welcomed with open arms by many.

 

It's a thread, we're allowed to discuss anything related to the topic. I.e. The whole year. It's not an honest review if criticism isn't accepted and "OMG AD HOMINEM EVERYWHERE!". Please, try tell people in real life during a discussion that they're not allowed mention anything you've said in the past. It is relevant, and this is probably the only forum where I have seen people try and shoot down an argument with that -- it's quite pathetic, really.

 

Also, I've ignored the last part of your post.

 

Crocefisso, don't forget to "Read and digest" the bold parts of post #21.

[Fallstar]

The articles were pretty good, although for the review of the year I wouldn't have even mentioned Jiblix. A player moderator being de-modded is not a significant event. The author did put a fairly negative slant on things, but for the wrong reasons in my opinion. There have been many good updates this year, especially on the quest front. Quests such as Branches of Darkmeyer and Ritual of the Maharrajat received widespread acclaim and positive feedback, yet quests are only touched upon in the article. You also list the bot nuke as a positive point: at best it could have been categorized as neutral. The fact that it took so long is appalling.

[Mercifull]

The comic should not have been in the times, its the weakest part of the whole thing.

 

I like the idea but the problem is that none of the characters looked like who they were meant to be, there were no visual RuneScape references and it just wasn't funny. Grindscape is much funnier (most of the time). It looked like it was lazily done with stock art to try to have another dig at Jagex.

[Helm_Lardar]

Yes the comic was poor. Not that funny, not that pleasing to look at.

 

@Fallstar: I would argue Jiblix was a significant event, because it influenced people's opinions hugely at the time: his video got 100,000 views, tip.it had a very long thread, J-Mods had to police the RSOF regarding him, and ultimately it's plausible that some of Jagex's potential golden joystick votes were lost as a result. While not significant in the long run it mattered at the time and even (perhaps) made the bot nuke more appeasing.

[Carl]

Yes the comic was poor. Not that funny, not that pleasing to look at.

 

@Fallstar: I would argue Jiblix was a significant event, because it influenced people's opinions hugely at the time: his video got 100,000 views, tip.it had a very long thread, J-Mods had to police the RSOF regarding him, and ultimately it's plausible that some of Jagex's potential golden joystick votes were lost as a result. While not significant in the long run it mattered at the time and even (perhaps) made the bot nuke more appeasing.

 

I must ask, Helm_Lardar, but what did we learn from that video? That's the thing I've always been wondering. What exactly did people find out from watching it? Was it that people actually realised there was bots and Real World-Trading websites being advertised en masse all across RuneScape? That Jagex were finding it very hard to tackle all of these problems?

 

I honestly don't think the average RuneScape player (Pretty much everyone who has logged in within the past year) find out something they didn't already know. This was just an excuse for people to [bleep] and moan even more, because it was said by a "Volunteer". If that video was a "wake-up call", some people need to get their heads checked...Because I don't know what RuneScape they've been playing, but it hasn't been the same one that I have been playing.

 

I doubt their votes took a hit, the other games exceeded in votes due to offering their players real rewards in-game (Which would be on the same level as a Double-XP weekend for RuneScape). We were offered nothing but a "Thank you", which is fine in itself.

 

Certainly more interesting things happened throughout the year than an attention-seeking episode on YouTube/RSOF. :thumbup:

[Jonanananas]

Yes the comic was poor. Not that funny, not that pleasing to look at.

 

@Fallstar: I would argue Jiblix was a significant event, because it influenced people's opinions hugely at the time: his video got 100,000 views, tip.it had a very long thread, J-Mods had to police the RSOF regarding him, and ultimately it's plausible that some of Jagex's potential golden joystick votes were lost as a result. While not significant in the long run it mattered at the time and even (perhaps) made the bot nuke more appeasing.

 

I must ask, Helm_Lardar, but what did we learn from that video? That's the thing I've always been wondering. What exactly did people find out from watching it? Was it that people actually realised there was bots and Real World-Trading websites being advertised en masse all across RuneScape? That Jagex were finding it very hard to tackle all of these problems?

 

I honestly don't think the average RuneScape player (Pretty much everyone who has logged in within the past year) find out something they didn't already know. This was just an excuse for people to [bleep] and moan even more, because it was said by a "Volunteer". If that video was a "wake-up call", some people need to get their heads checked...Because I don't know what RuneScape they've been playing, but it hasn't been the same one that I have been playing.

 

I doubt their votes took a hit, the other games exceeded in votes due to offering their players real rewards in-game (Which would be on the same level as a Double-XP weekend for RuneScape). We were offered nothing but a "Thank you", which is fine in itself.

 

Certainly more interesting things happened throughout the year than an attention-seeking episode on YouTube/RSOF. :thumbup:

 

You might not like it, but the video certainly *did* have an enormous influence on this year considering it was just filmed by a player. As you say, it was kind of an excuse to moan about Jagex and bots, but that doesn't mean it's any less significant. With the way Jagex handled this, they took a not too light blow on their reputation, at least within the forums.

And tbh, I'm sure very many people were NOT aware of how serious the problem had become. They didn't check F2P worlds, and unless you frequented several of the bot hotspots regularly, you wouldn't really be aware how they're everwhere.

 

 

I'm sure that right at this moment, easily the majority of players again don't know how many bots have crept back into this game already. Heck, even Jagex themselves seem to be in denial(Or rather, they think it's still small enough so they can downplay it in order to save their reputation)

[Helm_Lardar]

Yes the comic was poor. Not that funny, not that pleasing to look at.

 

@Fallstar: I would argue Jiblix was a significant event, because it influenced people's opinions hugely at the time: his video got 100,000 views, tip.it had a very long thread, J-Mods had to police the RSOF regarding him, and ultimately it's plausible that some of Jagex's potential golden joystick votes were lost as a result. While not significant in the long run it mattered at the time and even (perhaps) made the bot nuke more appeasing.

 

I must ask, Helm_Lardar, but what did we learn from that video? That's the thing I've always been wondering. What exactly did people find out from watching it? Was it that people actually realised there was bots and Real World-Trading websites being advertised en masse all across RuneScape? That Jagex were finding it very hard to tackle all of these problems?

 

I honestly don't think the average RuneScape player (Pretty much everyone who has logged in within the past year) find out something they didn't already know. This was just an excuse for people to [bleep] and moan even more, because it was said by a "Volunteer". If that video was a "wake-up call", some people need to get their heads checked...Because I don't know what RuneScape they've been playing, but it hasn't been the same one that I have been playing.

 

I doubt their votes took a hit, the other games exceeded in votes due to offering their players real rewards in-game (Which would be on the same level as a Double-XP weekend for RuneScape). We were offered nothing but a "Thank you", which is fine in itself.

 

Certainly more interesting things happened throughout the year than an attention-seeking episode on YouTube/RSOF. :thumbup:

 

Well, I hadn't actually realised RWT and botting was quite that bad on f2p worlds. That was a big eye-opener for me. It's not that I didn't care before, it's just that I hadn't known how big the problem was.

[Carl]

Yes the comic was poor. Not that funny, not that pleasing to look at.

 

@Fallstar: I would argue Jiblix was a significant event, because it influenced people's opinions hugely at the time: his video got 100,000 views, tip.it had a very long thread, J-Mods had to police the RSOF regarding him, and ultimately it's plausible that some of Jagex's potential golden joystick votes were lost as a result. While not significant in the long run it mattered at the time and even (perhaps) made the bot nuke more appeasing.

 

I must ask, Helm_Lardar, but what did we learn from that video? That's the thing I've always been wondering. What exactly did people find out from watching it? Was it that people actually realised there was bots and Real World-Trading websites being advertised en masse all across RuneScape? That Jagex were finding it very hard to tackle all of these problems?

 

I honestly don't think the average RuneScape player (Pretty much everyone who has logged in within the past year) find out something they didn't already know. This was just an excuse for people to [bleep] and moan even more, because it was said by a "Volunteer". If that video was a "wake-up call", some people need to get their heads checked...Because I don't know what RuneScape they've been playing, but it hasn't been the same one that I have been playing.

 

I doubt their votes took a hit, the other games exceeded in votes due to offering their players real rewards in-game (Which would be on the same level as a Double-XP weekend for RuneScape). We were offered nothing but a "Thank you", which is fine in itself.

 

Certainly more interesting things happened throughout the year than an attention-seeking episode on YouTube/RSOF. :thumbup:

 

You might not like it, but the video certainly *did* have an enormous influence on this year considering it was just filmed by a player. As you say, it was kind of an excuse to moan about Jagex and bots, but that doesn't mean it's any less significant. With the way Jagex handled this, they took a not too light blow on their reputation, at least within the forums.

And tbh, I'm sure very many people were NOT aware of how serious the problem had become. They didn't check F2P worlds, and unless you frequented several of the bot hotspots regularly, you wouldn't really be aware how they're everwhere.

 

Sorry but I just can't find any signficance of footage of RuneScape several months ago. And you mention how they handled it...Well, how else should they have handled it? It was the best way. They knew the concequences of what they were doing and what would happen, yet act surprise when it does actually happen. Or pretend to act, so people can go "OH WHOA THAT'S SO MEAN!". Manipulation at its best. I never really frequented the botting "Hot spots", nor did I often check F2P worlds unless I was specifically asked to go and deal with something. But from playing in a members world and having a friends list comprising of both F2P & P2P players, I knew what was going on. Not only that, but if they were never affected by it (Not even knowing it was a problem...) does that mean they were just jumping on the bandwagon to [bleep] some more?

 

You would have to be living under some pretty big rock to not know what's going on around you.

 

I'm sure that right at this moment, easily the majority of players again don't know how many bots have crept back into this game already. Heck, even Jagex themselves seem to be in denial(Or rather, they think it's still small enough so they can downplay it in order to save their reputation)

 

I've not actually seen the bots that are currently in this game, apart from screenshots and people talking about it. But I haven't seen where Jagex have tried to defend that and pretend there's still no bots. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you say they seem to be in denial or downplaying the situation...Got a link for me, perhaps?

 

Lets all...

[Jonanananas]

Quote chain:

 

[hide]

 

Yes the comic was poor. Not that funny, not that pleasing to look at.

 

@Fallstar: I would argue Jiblix was a significant event, because it influenced people's opinions hugely at the time: his video got 100,000 views, tip.it had a very long thread, J-Mods had to police the RSOF regarding him, and ultimately it's plausible that some of Jagex's potential golden joystick votes were lost as a result. While not significant in the long run it mattered at the time and even (perhaps) made the bot nuke more appeasing.

 

I must ask, Helm_Lardar, but what did we learn from that video? That's the thing I've always been wondering. What exactly did people find out from watching it? Was it that people actually realised there was bots and Real World-Trading websites being advertised en masse all across RuneScape? That Jagex were finding it very hard to tackle all of these problems?

 

I honestly don't think the average RuneScape player (Pretty much everyone who has logged in within the past year) find out something they didn't already know. This was just an excuse for people to [bleep] and moan even more, because it was said by a "Volunteer". If that video was a "wake-up call", some people need to get their heads checked...Because I don't know what RuneScape they've been playing, but it hasn't been the same one that I have been playing.

 

I doubt their votes took a hit, the other games exceeded in votes due to offering their players real rewards in-game (Which would be on the same level as a Double-XP weekend for RuneScape). We were offered nothing but a "Thank you", which is fine in itself.

 

Certainly more interesting things happened throughout the year than an attention-seeking episode on YouTube/RSOF. :thumbup:

 

You might not like it, but the video certainly *did* have an enormous influence on this year considering it was just filmed by a player. As you say, it was kind of an excuse to moan about Jagex and bots, but that doesn't mean it's any less significant. With the way Jagex handled this, they took a not too light blow on their reputation, at least within the forums.

And tbh, I'm sure very many people were NOT aware of how serious the problem had become. They didn't check F2P worlds, and unless you frequented several of the bot hotspots regularly, you wouldn't really be aware how they're everwhere.

 

Sorry but I just can't find any signficance of footage of RuneScape several months ago. And you mention how they handled it...Well, how else should they have handled it? It was the best way. They knew the concequences of what they were doing and what would happen, yet act surprise when it does actually happen. Or pretend to act, so people can go "OH WHOA THAT'S SO MEAN!". Manipulation at its best. I never really frequented the botting "Hot spots", nor did I often check F2P worlds unless I was specifically asked to go and deal with something. But from playing in a members world and having a friends list comprising of both F2P & P2P players, I knew what was going on. Not only that, but if they were never affected by it (Not even knowing it was a problem...) does that mean they were just jumping on the bandwagon to [bleep] some more?

 

You would have to be living under some pretty big rock to not know what's going on around you.

 

I'm sure that right at this moment, easily the majority of players again don't know how many bots have crept back into this game already. Heck, even Jagex themselves seem to be in denial(Or rather, they think it's still small enough so they can downplay it in order to save their reputation)

 

I've not actually seen the bots that are currently in this game, apart from screenshots and people talking about it. But I haven't seen where Jagex have tried to defend that and pretend there's still no bots. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you say they seem to be in denial or downplaying the situation...Got a link for me, perhaps?

 

Lets all...

 

[/hide]

 

Just the post above, you have someone telling you he didn't know the problem was so severe. There were loads of people like this. Now, you can argue that if it didn't affect them it shouldn't matter to them....but tbh, that's a different point. What is important is that this footage and the demodding *back then* was of significance because it brought up people against Jagex - whether that is justified or not doesn't really matter here.

 

As for what Jagex could have done better - they either could just have not demodded him (Not because it wasn't justified, but simply - what gain did they get out of demodding him? The video just got more popular, the players more enraged. Streisand effect at its best). If they insisted on demodding, they could have been more open about and just post "We just have demodded an fmod, he breached the terms that were agreed on when he signed up. As a reminder, fmods are absolutely allowed to voice their opinion, they should just do so in a way that is not related to their forum mod account because that account does to an extent represent Jagex. Please do not create any threads about it and refrain from posting the fmods name as that would conflict with his right of privacy" - something along these lines, of course polished a bit. Lock all threads talking about Jiblix, but REDIRECT them to that statement instead of just locking them which makes it look even more like censorship.

 

Honesty can be worth a lot.

 

 

As for Jmods downplaying the issue...I'll see if I can find a quote as an example

 

edit: This thread(14-15-466-63465734) for example, page 21, post by mod Timo:

 

""Jagex will handle the bots" is not a commitment. We don't want the success of the Bot Nuke washed away in another flood of bots.

 

Well, if Mod MMG's statement from the bot nuke day is not enough, I don't quite know what would be. Monthly updates and reassurances can often have the opposite effect: if we keep talking about bots, people will keep thinking that it is a huge issue, when it has actually gone down significantly. The same applies to new threads being made about bots - it's wallowing in a problem, making a mountain out of a molehill. We would rather people go enjoy the game as it was intended rather than keep looking over their shoulders imagining 'what if' doomsday scenarios.

 

I know that there have been major problems with bots in the past, but I would genuinely recommend not to worry about it currently unless it becomes an actual problem. Not every drop of rain means you need to build an ark. :) "

[Erewhon2]

Yes the comic was poor. Not that funny, not that pleasing to look at.

 

I agree that the comic was poor...was it even meant to be funny? I just didn't 'get it'. So I give you this as my response to that and the years review of RS article :wink:

 

[quitthegame]

Lock all threads talking about Jiblix, but REDIRECT them to that statement instead of just locking them which makes it look even more like censorship.

 

Honesty can be worth a lot.

 

You want honesty?

 

In order to make sure that our forums remain an enjoyable place for our community to hang out, weve laid out some general guidelines and rules for posting. These specify what kind of posting is okay and what is not okay.

 

There, they're being honest that they censor their forums. Really, I have no idea why you bring up honesty and censorship. They mention that they censor the forums like 500 times, the list of rules is longer than this thread.

 

I wasn't supposed to post in this thread again :shame: But accusing Jagex of censorship just is so funny :oops:

[Carl]

 

Just the post above, you have someone telling you he didn't know the problem was so severe. There were loads of people like this. Now, you can argue that if it didn't affect them it shouldn't matter to them....but tbh, that's a different point. What is important is that this footage and the demodding *back then* was of significance because it brought up people against Jagex - whether that is justified or not doesn't really matter here.

 

 

Rather then it begs to question if they're even a regular player? Surely anyone who logs in on a weekly basis and spends time in-game (For the problems to matter), will be aware of bots and people complaining. Even frequenting the Tip.It forums can give one that information.

 

As for what Jagex could have done better - they either could just have not demodded him (Not because it wasn't justified, but simply - what gain did they get out of demodding him? The video just got more popular, the players more enraged. Streisand effect at its best). If they insisted on demodding, they could have been more open about and just post "We just have demodded an fmod, he breached the terms that were agreed on when he signed up. As a reminder, fmods are absolutely allowed to voice their opinion, they should just do so in a way that is not related to their forum mod account because that account does to an extent represent Jagex. Please do not create any threads about it and refrain from posting the fmods name as that would conflict with his right of privacy" - something along these lines, of course polished a bit. Lock all threads talking about Jiblix, but REDIRECT them to that statement instead of just locking them which makes it look even more like censorship.

 

 

I really have to disagree with you on this one, Jonanananans. Jagex as a company shouldn't have to justify removing a players volunteer position and then make a News post/Forum post regarding it. That's just crazy. The voluntteer knew what they were doing an what the effect would be. It's not Jagex's concern if players choose to get angry. They shouldn't have to tip-toe around and make sure everything is justified. There's a place for Moderators to voice their opinions. It's in the forum rules, also, that players can't create threads that highlight another player (Or something along those lines...) - so there is reason for them posts being removed.

 

 

 

 

As for Jmods downplaying the issue...I'll see if I can find a quote as an example

 

edit: This thread(14-15-466-63465734) for example, page 21, post by mod Timo:

 

""Jagex will handle the bots" is not a commitment. We don't want the success of the Bot Nuke washed away in another flood of bots.

 

Well, if Mod MMG's statement from the bot nuke day is not enough, I don't quite know what would be. Monthly updates and reassurances can often have the opposite effect: if we keep talking about bots, people will keep thinking that it is a huge issue, when it has actually gone down significantly. The same applies to new threads being made about bots - it's wallowing in a problem, making a mountain out of a molehill. We would rather people go enjoy the game as it was intended rather than keep looking over their shoulders imagining 'what if' doomsday scenarios.

 

I know that there have been major problems with bots in the past, but I would genuinely recommend not to worry about it currently unless it becomes an actual problem. Not every drop of rain means you need to build an ark. :) "

 

Wasn't quite sure what that quote was about, but after visiting the thread and reading it, it does make sense. I don't see it as them being in denial, but rather them saying they will deal with it. There's no doubting that bots aren't as rampant as they were pre-whenever-the-nuke-was, and I think we can all agree on that. I don't see that post by Timbo being anything more than that or trying to downplay it. I'm not going to argue and say that bots are completely gone, that will never happen. But they have done a good job at stopping most of it.

[Jonanananas]

Lock all threads talking about Jiblix, but REDIRECT them to that statement instead of just locking them which makes it look even more like censorship.

 

Honesty can be worth a lot.

 

You want honesty?

 

In order to make sure that our forums remain an enjoyable place for our community to hang out, we’ve laid out some general guidelines and rules for posting. These specify what kind of posting is okay and what is not okay.

 

There, they're being honest that they censor their forums. Really, I have no idea why you bring up honesty and censorship. They mention that they censor the forums like 500 times, the list of rules is longer than this thread.

 

I wasn't supposed to post in this thread again :shame: But accusing Jagex of censorship just is so funny :oops:

 

That was taken out of context. I am not accusing Jagex of censorship, I'm just saying what Jagex could have done better to avoid all the rage when Jiblix's demodding happened.

 

 

Just the post above, you have someone telling you he didn't know the problem was so severe. There were loads of people like this. Now, you can argue that if it didn't affect them it shouldn't matter to them....but tbh, that's a different point. What is important is that this footage and the demodding *back then* was of significance because it brought up people against Jagex - whether that is justified or not doesn't really matter here.

 

 

Rather then it begs to question if they're even a regular player? Surely anyone who logs in on a weekly basis and spends time in-game (For the problems to matter), will be aware of bots and people complaining. Even frequenting the Tip.It forums can give one that information.

 

I doubt that. I'm sure there are a lot of players who don't read the RSOF of some of the fansite forums, but for example watch youtube videos. You're saying it's obvious, because it was obvious for *you*. It was obvious for me as well, but I'm sure by far not for everyone else. And there's a big difference between reading "OMG there are hundreds of bots in the LRC" and actually *seeing* it in action.

 

As for what Jagex could have done better - they either could just have not demodded him (Not because it wasn't justified, but simply - what gain did they get out of demodding him? The video just got more popular, the players more enraged. Streisand effect at its best). If they insisted on demodding, they could have been more open about and just post "We just have demodded an fmod, he breached the terms that were agreed on when he signed up. As a reminder, fmods are absolutely allowed to voice their opinion, they should just do so in a way that is not related to their forum mod account because that account does to an extent represent Jagex. Please do not create any threads about it and refrain from posting the fmods name as that would conflict with his right of privacy" - something along these lines, of course polished a bit. Lock all threads talking about Jiblix, but REDIRECT them to that statement instead of just locking them which makes it look even more like censorship.

 

 

I really have to disagree with you on this one, Jonanananans. Jagex as a company shouldn't have to justify removing a players volunteer position and then make a News post/Forum post regarding it. That's just crazy. The voluntteer knew what they were doing an what the effect would be. It's not Jagex's concern if players choose to get angry. They shouldn't have to tip-toe around and make sure everything is justified. There's a place for Moderators to voice their opinions. It's in the forum rules, also, that players can't create threads that highlight another player (Or something along those lines...) - so there is reason for them posts being removed.

 

 

I'm not necessairly saying that they *have* to justify themselves. I'm okay with Jiblix's demodding. I'm just saying that addressing the issue would have been *smarter*, and would have avoided a lot of rage. And yes, they should have removed threads about the topic, but simply with a bit more of an explanation. It sure would have been better for them.

 

 

As for Jmods downplaying the issue...I'll see if I can find a quote as an example

 

edit: This thread(14-15-466-63465734) for example, page 21, post by mod Timo:

 

""Jagex will handle the bots" is not a commitment. We don't want the success of the Bot Nuke washed away in another flood of bots.

 

Well, if Mod MMG's statement from the bot nuke day is not enough, I don't quite know what would be. Monthly updates and reassurances can often have the opposite effect: if we keep talking about bots, people will keep thinking that it is a huge issue, when it has actually gone down significantly. The same applies to new threads being made about bots - it's wallowing in a problem, making a mountain out of a molehill. We would rather people go enjoy the game as it was intended rather than keep looking over their shoulders imagining 'what if' doomsday scenarios.

 

I know that there have been major problems with bots in the past, but I would genuinely recommend not to worry about it currently unless it becomes an actual problem. Not every drop of rain means you need to build an ark. :) "

 

Wasn't quite sure what that quote was about, but after visiting the thread and reading it, it does make sense. I don't see it as them being in denial, but rather them saying they will deal with it. There's no doubting that bots aren't as rampant as they were pre-whenever-the-nuke-was, and I think we can all agree on that. I don't see that post by Timbo being anything more than that or trying to downplay it. I'm not going to argue and say that bots are completely gone, that will never happen. But they have done a good job at stopping most of it.

 

That was just an example. I've seen some more stuff like this. The problem is that while *currently* the bot problem might not be as bad as it was pre-nuke, the bot numbers are already rising again. Posts like this make it look like Jagex is resting on their laurels while colour bots slowly get better and better and creep back into the game. Sorceress garden already doesn't look much different from how it was before the nuke. There are already a few k bots in the game at any given time. They should be acted on *now* before the report system gets horribly clogged again. I know of some bots reported on Nov 8, which still haven't received any kind of punishment. That doesn't exactly make it look like Jagex is capable of dealing with them, especially if you consider that there won't be an update that stops colour bots completely.

[quitthegame]

That was taken out of context. I am not accusing Jagex of censorship, I'm just saying what Jagex could have done better to avoid all the rage when Jiblix's demodding happened.

 

I'm not intending to take you out of context--but I'm not sure who you were accusing of censorship if not Jagex. Did you mean some other word, because it's hard to think of another word that would typo to 'censorship'? Cover-up maybe? Your explanation above is all well and good, but you did actually use the word censorship and your explanation above has nothing to do with it, which seems odd.

 

About taking you in context--I was going to reply to something else, from your last paragraph about whether Jagex would succeed against bots longterm or not, which came from whether Jmods are downplaying, which came from Jiblix...you guys are jumping around topics very quickly. Part of the responsibility for being taken in context is with the author staying in the original context, and also using words precisely. I decided the only way I could stay in context was to not reply at all to that paragraph. I end up agreeing with most of your paragraphs, but sometimes it seems like they don't get along with each other, which does indeed come back to context. Like if I take your last paragraph literally, where you say Jagex maybe can't deal with the bots, it kinda destroys all your previous arguments about how they should fully disclose :shock: If they can't succeed long term, they should hide that and keep stalling, tbh. But if you don't like a line by line analysis then I"ll leave it general like that for you.

[Jonanananas]

That was taken out of context. I am not accusing Jagex of censorship, I'm just saying what Jagex could have done better to avoid all the rage when Jiblix's demodding happened.

 

I'm not intending to take you out of context--but I'm not sure who you were accusing of censorship if not Jagex. Did you mean some other word, because it's hard to think of another word that would typo to 'censorship'? Cover-up maybe? Your explanation above is all well and good, but you did actually use the word censorship and your explanation above has nothing to do with it, which seems odd.

 

About taking you in context--I was going to reply to something else, from your last paragraph about whether Jagex would succeed against bots longterm or not, which came from whether Jmods are downplaying, which came from Jiblix...you guys are jumping around topics very quickly. Part of the responsibility for being taken in context is with the author staying in the original context, and also using words precisely. I decided the only way I could stay in context was to not reply at all to that paragraph. I end up agreeing with most of your paragraphs, but sometimes it seems like they don't get along with each other, which does indeed come back to context. Like if I take your last paragraph literally, where you say Jagex maybe can't deal with the bots, it kinda destroys all your previous arguments about how they should fully disclose :shock: If they can't succeed long term, they should hide that and keep stalling, tbh. But if you don't like a line by line analysis then I"ll leave it general like that for you.

 

Sorry about the jumping around on the topics - It can indeed get quite confusing.

 

So, what I wanted to say is that *I personally* do not accusee Jagex of censorship, or at least not more than it's fully their right and mostly needed. There are however, a lot of people feeling like that and the Jiblix incident enraged them a lot. I believe that Jagex could have handled the situation better in order to avoid having so many people being angry at you.

 

 

Regarding your second paragraph: Well, you're kinda right. Complete honesty and not hiding anything isn't necessarily always the way to go, it depends on the situation. You should try to be honest and not to hide anything, but sometimes I guess it's necessary.

Oh and I do believe that Jagex is theoretically able to deal with bots in the long term too. They just need to streamline their reporting and detection system. What I was getting at is, that from a technical perspective, it's impossible for Jagex to stop colour bots completely from working, like they did with injection bots with the bot nuke. Colour bots interact with the game in the same way as a player and operate on an OS level, which means that unless Jagex installed spyware on your computer, they wouldn't be able to stop them from working indefinitely.

That doesn't mean they can't be worked against. There is still a lot of stuff you can do to hinder them, e.g. colour changing, and if they get reported and banned quickly enough, then that works just as good as stopping them completely.

The thing is, both of these measures get harder relatively to the number of bots in-game. Having a bot system checking only a few k reports is still manageable. Once the bot numbers go into tenthousands at any given time, the report system will be horribly cluttered and not able to keep up. That's why I'm very worried about Jagex not taking the issue seriously.

Of course, all of this could simply be just the CM mods talking and trying to calm people, while the Mods behind the scenes still take it very seriously. I hope that's the case. It's possible, I'm not denying it - I'm just worrying.

[Dexek]

Master Smither - Your article hit home with me. It's the micro-transactions and lack of "new" content that have basically prevented me from effectively returning to Runescape over the past 10 months. I would usually take a 4-6 month break each year due to boredom and responsibilities, and come back to a Runescape that could keep me occupied for the next 4-6 months.. However in recent years my breaks have been getting larger and return time smaller.

 

This year I didn't even see the point in re-subscribing to membership.. the fact that Jagex is milking all potential money with micro-transactions and updates that remove F2P content just pushes me away from Runescape. I enjoyed most of the time I played, but based the change in company direction, I would rather enjoy spending my time elsewhere.