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The Welfare & Benefits System


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In the UK, the citizens are given a right to claim welfare benefits if they fulfill the eligibility criteria. In recent political discussion, there has been some discussion about whether it is fair for them to receive these payments. On the contrary, if I'm recalling correctly, the US has a much more stringent system that is arguably inadequate for some people. There has been some recent controversy regarding changes to the system.

 

On a personal level, I consider it unfair that those who are truly unable to work, or those who are in circumstances at no choice of their own to be refused aid by the state. On the flipside, I consider welfare leeches a poison to society, and should be withdrawn from the system as soon as possible.

 

What do you guys think? Does your country have a good welfare system? Does it even need it? Should it be adjusted in any way, shape or form? Discuss.

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The money we spend on the military is hardly anything compared to (what you would assume) a crackhead's check.

"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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I've never assumed, nor will assume that it was a crackhead's cheque, for your info.

 

When I refer to leeches in society, I'm referring to those who are clearly able to work but refuse to out of apathy. I don't think they should receive anything from the government. It also disgusts me that people who can abuse the system, using foodstamps in addition to buying excessive luxury goods that they don't really need - it just shows that they have the money to spend but would rather take from the system when they could just reduce their wastefulness. I believe that these people should be withdrawn from the system.

 

If the military is overspending, does that really justify the wasteful welfare system? I don't think it does.

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Similar to Australia.

 

We have a welfare system and a good 80% of the time, it's given to societys leeches, who should go play in traffic. I waste my taxpaying money on retarded 20 year olds who use my tax money to buy drugs, sit at home, and [bleep] they have no money.

 

I myself have tried to go on welfare not to leech, but to actually move out of my abusive home and start a new life, with the welfare as a stepping stone to help me get away. But Im not allowed because under their rules:

 

* Im under 25 so im not technically an "Adult" to them

* My dad earns above the cut-off mark for assist even though NONE OF IT is given to me, and I PAY HIM each week for rent.

* I live in a home that IS unfair to be living in, but instead they'll help out people who are moochers.

 

 

I for one am disgusted by the system we have and I know thousands of other people are too, hell the old hag who served me last time went like this

"sorry, cant help you."

"so you're saying I need to be living on the streets, begging for money before you'll even CONSIDER helping me get away from my abusive home?"

"yep thats how it works,dont like it then tuff luck"

 

I swear they get enjoyment out of other's misery.

Popoto.~<3

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[spoiler=Quoted Post]

Similar to Australia.

 

We have a welfare system and a good 80% of the time, it's given to societys leeches, who should go play in traffic. I waste my taxpaying money on retarded 20 year olds who use my tax money to buy drugs, sit at home, and [bleep] they have no money.

 

I myself have tried to go on welfare not to leech, but to actually move out of my abusive home and start a new life, with the welfare as a stepping stone to help me get away. But Im not allowed because under their rules:

 

* Im under 25 so im not technically an "Adult" to them

* My dad earns above the cut-off mark for assist even though NONE OF IT is given to me, and I PAY HIM each week for rent.

* I live in a home that IS unfair to be living in, but instead they'll help out people who are moochers.

 

 

I for one am disgusted by the system we have and I know thousands of other people are too, hell the old hag who served me last time went like this

"sorry, cant help you."

"so you're saying I need to be living on the streets, begging for money before you'll even CONSIDER helping me get away from my abusive home?"

"yep thats how it works,dont like it then tuff luck"

 

I swear they get enjoyment out of other's misery.

 

 

Ever think about getting a job, then moving out?

 

I think the government should send people to see every person who is on welfare to make sure they are actually unfit to work. So many people in my town are on welfare and have nothing wrong with them while I work very hard 40 hours a week to make a living. Then what adds insult to injury, I'm working partially to pay for these people's way of life. Might as well come in my house and take money out of my wallet.

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Every good system has people who abuse it. That's about all there is to it.

Exactly. To completely get rid of 'the bad things' you must spend too much money/time/happiness. Want to 100% ban drugs? You'll have to check every single person and every single storage space on the planet. Same deal with every other crime. It's a bad idea to expect a system to be entirely efficient/effective.

 

That being said, I'm in favour of a benefit system for everyone. Even if people choose to leech, it's still civilized to take care of other people. Basic things like food, water, shelter, internet (at least over here you have to do your taxes via internet, so it's not optional anymore) should be available to everyone. You can solve that by handing these things out for free, or by handing out the equivalent money; I prefer the money because it allows people some freedom.

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[spoiler=Quoted Post]

Similar to Australia.

 

We have a welfare system and a good 80% of the time, it's given to societys leeches, who should go play in traffic. I waste my taxpaying money on retarded 20 year olds who use my tax money to buy drugs, sit at home, and [bleep] they have no money.

 

I myself have tried to go on welfare not to leech, but to actually move out of my abusive home and start a new life, with the welfare as a stepping stone to help me get away. But Im not allowed because under their rules:

 

* Im under 25 so im not technically an "Adult" to them

* My dad earns above the cut-off mark for assist even though NONE OF IT is given to me, and I PAY HIM each week for rent.

* I live in a home that IS unfair to be living in, but instead they'll help out people who are moochers.

 

 

I for one am disgusted by the system we have and I know thousands of other people are too, hell the old hag who served me last time went like this

"sorry, cant help you."

"so you're saying I need to be living on the streets, begging for money before you'll even CONSIDER helping me get away from my abusive home?"

"yep thats how it works,dont like it then tuff luck"

 

I swear they get enjoyment out of other's misery.

 

 

Ever think about getting a job, then moving out?

 

I think the government should send people to see every person who is on welfare to make sure they are actually unfit to work. So many people in my town are on welfare and have nothing wrong with them while I work very hard 40 hours a week to make a living. Then what adds insult to injury, I'm working partially to pay for these people's way of life. Might as well come in my house and take money out of my wallet.

I HAVE a job it simply does not pay enough, and unless I live further in the city, getting a decent full time is hard while living out in a remote town.

Perhaps the "I waste my taxpaying money on them" didn't quite say it well...

Popoto.~<3

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Every good system has people who abuse it. That's about all there is to it.

Exactly. To completely get rid of 'the bad things' you must spend too much money/time/happiness. Want to 100% ban drugs? You'll have to check every single person and every single storage space on the planet. Same deal with every other crime. It's a bad idea to expect a system to be entirely efficient/effective.

 

That being said, I'm in favour of a benefit system for everyone. Even if people choose to leech, it's still civilized to take care of other people. Basic things like food, water, shelter, internet (at least over here you have to do your taxes via internet, so it's not optional anymore) should be available to everyone. You can solve that by handing these things out for free, or by handing out the equivalent money; I prefer the money because it allows people some freedom.

I don't know about internet (public libraries have that for free), but the rest of the stuff, I agree. That's not to say you shouldn't have checks to losely make sure people aren't abusing it, but some bad eggs shouldn't ruin it for everyone.

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I like the UK's welfare system, although I am sure that it could do with some more stringent checks against abuse. Being such a hot topic, I'm sure that will come in time, although there'll be a tipping point where it's more expensive to regulate the system than to have a last few cheating it.

 

Knowing that if I fall on hard times the government can to an extent help me through is a tremendous boon, and I wouldn't want to deny it to anyone lest I one day want it myself.

I'm not an efficienado.

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Every good system has people who abuse it. That's about all there is to it.

Exactly. To completely get rid of 'the bad things' you must spend too much money/time/happiness. Want to 100% ban drugs? You'll have to check every single person and every single storage space on the planet. Same deal with every other crime. It's a bad idea to expect a system to be entirely efficient/effective.

 

That being said, I'm in favour of a benefit system for everyone. Even if people choose to leech, it's still civilized to take care of other people. Basic things like food, water, shelter, internet (at least over here you have to do your taxes via internet, so it's not optional anymore) should be available to everyone. You can solve that by handing these things out for free, or by handing out the equivalent money; I prefer the money because it allows people some freedom.

I don't know about internet (public libraries have that for free), but the rest of the stuff, I agree. That's not to say you shouldn't have checks to losely make sure people aren't abusing it, but some bad eggs shouldn't ruin it for everyone.

I'll try and address this in chronological order.

 

"Everything good system has people who abuse it." That's true, and I don't disagree on that point. The point I do disagree with is the implicit notion that because that's the case, we shouldn't try to minimize the abuse. I think we should, and effective strategies don't have to be supply-side. It's rather simple in theory, although the logistics is up for debate. We can: lower the incentives to not work, whilst penalizing those who legitimately can't, OR - we give an incentive to work, without penalizing those who legitimately can't. It doesn't have to be monetary, either - it could be a system where hiring/firing became a less lengthy process, or regulations in place to make work more enjoyable and less mundane (e.g. a highly encouraged leisure time allotted to employees who have to put more effort in).

 

The welfare trap phenomena is well-understood. I don't think it's fair to say or suggest that we shouldn't address the issues because there always will be some.

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It's implied when you've said that every system has abusers. It's suggesting that we shouldn't do anything about it, because nothing would completely eradicate abusers. I was addressing that implicit notion. We do agree on the point that we should minimize abusers of the system though, right?

 

The question here now is 'how'?

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No, it's not suggesting we shouldn't do anything. It's suggesting it will never be completely eradicated, and that the actions of a few shouldn't ruin the benefits for many. Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

But yes, we do agree that trying to minimize abuse is a positive thing.

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I don't think it will ruin the benefits of the many to change the system - depending on what you're interpreting what I mean by changing the system. I'm proposing a policy where foodstamps + part welfare payments are issued instead of full welfare payments to minimize costs, to make jobs more appealing by changing the regulations around it, and to make getting hired a quicker and more simplistic process (currently may take up to a month).

 

I do support the welfare/benefits system, but not the way it is currently run in the UK. I think there should be tweaks, but there shouldn't be removal. I don't want to accuse you of anything, but please don't do the same to what I'm saying.

 

How would you propose to minimize abuse and maximize employment, if that's your objective of this discussion?

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I don't know enough about the UK system to say how it could be improved specifically, but here for example, there are a variety of checks used to ensure people are actually needing welfare, such as minimum requirements for job applications if they are able to work.

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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It was ten applications per week when I was claiming unemployment benefits about six or seven months ago. When you consider the amount of time it takes to properly fill out a job application such that you have a decent chance of getting an interview, that seems fair to me. With hindsight, I guess there's an 80% chance I was leeching from society. And taking crack.

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Thinking about the welfare where I live (and it is the 3rd largest segment of our provincial budget after Healthcare and Education), one of the problems is that if your on it, and you do get a job, they subtract the entirety of your paycheck from the welfare you receive. While it makes sense on the surface I suppose, what it actually does is remove the motivation for people to go get a job, because until they get something full time, they won't actually be bringing in any extra money at all. If we could go to some sort of sliding scale where they start out keeping half their paycheck, and then cutting it back as they make more, to help encourage people to not go on welfare for the rest of their lives.

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Not only that, but if you're on Job Seeker's Allowance in the UK, you're also entitled to free NHS prescriptions and exemption from council tax. Of course, any income you receive beyond a certain threshold is taxable anyway, but then on top of that you have start paying council tax because you're no longer on unemployment benefits. It's more of a problem with part-time workers than it is with full-time workers since those on permanent contracts receive sufficient money to take that hit, but I think going back to my own situation, if I'd have been successful in getting a job for 12-16 hours a week, I'd have been worse off financially than I would have been staying on JSA.

 

That's a problem that's currently being compounded by the state of the economy. There's (relatively) plenty of part-time work going, full-time work is difficult to come by, for young people especially so.

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There's many times I've recalled my parents talking about going on the doll because they work a lot for not much money when, at the end of the day, if they were on JSA they would probably end up with the same amount of money. They aren't cheats or doll dossers by any means, but people who work hard for a living but come out at the end with the same, or just a bit more than, people who sit around doing nothing all day, aren't going to WANT to work. At least not in a dead end, minimum wage job.

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I guess the pride of working for a days wages have vanished these days in favour of "I'm not working when I can get more or less the same amount for free". I just feel sorry for those who actually want to work but struggle in the job market. They get tarred with the same brush as those who make it a lifestyle choice.

 

Ps. Racheya it's dole not doll.

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In the U.S., I feel that the federal government has no role in welfare. I don't feel that it is particularly good policy to take money from someone in Indiana, and funnel it to someone in California, nor do I think it's good policy to take money from Texas and give it to someone in Michigan. The federal government has too much control, and it isn't very healthy for people. Think bureaucratic social engineering.

 

Government also supplants charity and religion. "I don't have to donate to the poor because that's what my taxes are for." When I donate my hard earned money to a charity, you'd better believe I'm going to make sure they really need it, and it's for a good cause. When government takes money from me and hands it out, they don't do a very good job nor do they really care.

 

I also think the way that welfare is setup is more of a trap than anything else. I'd rather see people be able to work their way out of welfare and into a good paying job, rather than be forced to "leech" on society. It's sad that there are generation after generation stuck on welfare; there's no reason for it.

 

 

As I posted in another thread, I think it's a crime that most people considered "poor" in America are very rich compared to the majority of the world. You pay for cable every month? Why am I paying for your food then?

 

 

All this really is just an ill of socialism. But don't worry, I'm greedy, mean and evil for wanting to keep more of what I earn. I'm part of the 48% of Americans that actually pay income tax.

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My home state of Michigan is attempting to require mandatory drug testing for all welfare recipients. I'm not sure how I feel about that yet, but I'd like to see the effects it will have in Oklahoma and Georgia who are adopting similar policies. I'm hoping it will be a step forward to improving the viability of the safety net we have in the U.S. by actually funneling the money to honest people, but I'm worried about the potential side effects.

 

I don't feel that it is particularly good policy to take money from someone in Indiana, and funnel it to someone in California, nor do I think it's good policy to take money from Texas and give it to someone in Michigan.
Ironically, despite our unemployment issue, we actually give more than we get for welfare. I can rest assured knowing that we're not receiving money from Texas or anywhere else for welfare.

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I don't feel that it is particularly good policy to take money from someone in Indiana, and funnel it to someone in California, nor do I think it's good policy to take money from Texas and give it to someone in Michigan.
Ironically, despite our unemployment issue, we actually give more than we get for welfare. I can rest assured knowing that we're not receiving money from Texas or anywhere else for welfare.

Random states, maybe a bad example. Wouldn't you prefer it if you knew you didn't have to send money to D.C. only to have them hold it hostage or give it to someone clear across the country?

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