Behind the Scenes - April

[Sy_Accursed]

Which doors you open when is the whole routing thing that DGS has some in-depth guides on and can dramatically alter floor times. It is about predicting how far a path will go and dealing with shorter paths first so that entire routes are made 'dead' to save gating/running back and forth across rooms/routes more than necessary.

 

I said nothing about calling, I said it still stands as a necessity to gate and remember what key doors are where for keys not found when the door is. If you find a red triangle door and gate it as there is no key you still need to remember that is where your gate is and need a call when the key is found etc.

 

I fail to see logic how bad dgers can benefit more from this, they get the exact same benefit as gd dgers. And gd dgers by definition will put it to better use. Sure it'll speed up learning due to less to learn in terms of keying but in established dgers a good dger should still be able to make better use of the changes to squash floor times than a bad dger. In the same way current methods someone doing it badly will still take longer.

Critical path and ggs placement actually have no relation with this update, thats going to be done as it was before. No people wont need to call when a key has been found because people just look to see when that key appears in their keybelt (unless its a click-to-view window rather than a popup that stays in the corner of your view.) But neither of the 2 matter because what will be affected is something that good dgers do their best in compacting their time-spent. Had you ran into a double key door path both relatively farther away from one another pre-update youd have to know how 2 be efficient with g8stone placement now those doors may very well turn into enter doors if people have access to the key-belt and theyre available. Lets not forget the need for memorization that will be dumbed down as having access to all obtained keys at any time will just decrease the # of key doors you have gated. Lets say youre spreeing north east corner and theres pcr pco bcr bp gor doors and the keyr had gor pco and pcr keys youd have to remember that gor pco pcr was what you needed to get and that bp and bcr was what you had to regate along with any other potential doors that you were to come across + knowing where to leave your gate based on the positioning of the doors, thats something a good dger would be able to handle but a derp wouldnt be able to mentally grasp in a fast pacesd mindstate prior to this update and would result in time-waste. Now in dumbeoneering both the good and bad dungeoneerers will be able to keep up with

 

@Alg youre probably right but this is my conceited take as dungeoneering was one of the few things in rs that actually took intellectual skills, and probably still will be but the gap between good and bad has been narrowed

They could give starting gp/more binds if they wanted to speed up dungeoneering and i would have been completely fine with that, but they one of the few fun factors it had to offer

 

"Critical path and ggs placement actually have no relation with this update, thats going to be done as it was before."

My point exactly, these skills which play a fairly substantially factor in floor times are unaltered.

 

"No people wont need to call when a key has been found because people just look to see when that key appears in their keybelt (unless its a click-to-view window rather than a popup that stays in the corner of your view.)"

This relies on a heavily speculative assumption, given how they specified a toolbelt the most logical assumption is that it will not differ from the toolbelt we have, why else call it such? Plus some form of pop-up perma view seems unlikely when you consider how vast such an interface would need to be. There's what like 6 shapes and 6 colours? That's 36 keys. Even if by some random twist Jagex used the DGS style abbreviations 36 separate items would take up a lot of space. Though of course it could be just for keys currently owned, but that could still take up a fair amount of space considering how many keys can be in play at any one time.

 

"Lets say youre spreeing north east corner and theres pcr pco bcr bp gor doors and the keyr had gor pco and pcr keys youd have to remember that gor pco pcr was what you needed to get and that bp and bcr was what you had to regate along with any other potential doors that you were to come across + knowing where to leave your gate based on the positioning of the doors, thats something a good dger would be able to handle but a derp wouldnt be able to mentally grasp in a fast pacesd mindstate prior to this update and would result in time-waste."

This skill will still be necessary as doors will still need to be gated. It will be a lesser factor, but a factor none the less, because there are still going to be doors discovered with no matching key currently found.

 

To my mind logic still dictates that whatever benefit is to be reaped from this reward will benefit ALL dgers equally and that in all likelihood good dgers will find ways to use it better than bad ones. It is an odd logic to assume that an update that allows for quicker floors will some how enable people who are not good at current methods to suddenly reap huge speed increases while those good at dg won't. Aside from the learning phase we all must go through with dg logical the better dgers will still be better and therefore be able to improve them times by the same amount or more than the bad dgers.

 

As far as I can see any improvement this offers to bad dgers will be matched or bettered by gd dgers because there is no logical reason why bad dgers would be able to make greater use of the changes.

[Cheefoo]

Thankfully the Squeal of Fortune spins are too goddamn expensive to really be abuseable. But the general idea behind it is really shitty. Especially because it is gambling regardless of what Jagex claims. Getting a cabbage isn't "winning", that's "losing", and when there's losing, it's "gambling". The fact that you spend real money to do so could actually make it illegal in some countries.

 

I actually hope somebody files a lawsuit against Jagex for online gambling (as well as letting kids use their parent's credit cards without need any confirmation to do so) and they have to get rid of this Squeal of Fortune payment crap.

 

On the subject of dungeoneering: WHERE IS MY SOLO DUNGEONEERING XP BUFF?! Soloing is so terrible compared to team dungeon delving, and in some cases, takes more effort on an individual's part. When you're in a team, often there are a few people being totally lazy while a few others are doing all the work. Even if they slow the dungeon down to an hour the experience is still miles ahead of soloing. And don't get me started on leeching...

[Sy_Accursed]

Thankfully the Squeal of Fortune spins are too goddamn expensive to really be abuseable. But the general idea behind it is really shitty. Especially because it is gambling regardless of what Jagex claims. Getting a cabbage isn't "winning", that's "losing", and when there's losing, it's "gambling". The fact that you spend real money to do so could actually make it illegal in some countries.

 

I actually hope somebody files a lawsuit against Jagex for online gambling (as well as letting kids use their parent's credit cards without need any confirmation to do so) and they have to get rid of this Squeal of Fortune payment crap.

 

While anyone on an MMO would likely agree with those terms the loophole is the fact that in literal terms as seen by law and such as long as you get something you have 'won' it does not matter the value.

[Cheefoo]

Thankfully the Squeal of Fortune spins are too goddamn expensive to really be abuseable. But the general idea behind it is really shitty. Especially because it is gambling regardless of what Jagex claims. Getting a cabbage isn't "winning", that's "losing", and when there's losing, it's "gambling". The fact that you spend real money to do so could actually make it illegal in some countries.

 

I actually hope somebody files a lawsuit against Jagex for online gambling (as well as letting kids use their parent's credit cards without need any confirmation to do so) and they have to get rid of this Squeal of Fortune payment crap.

 

While anyone on an MMO would likely agree with those terms the loophole is the fact that in literal terms as seen by law and such as long as you get something you have 'won' it does not matter the value.

 

Then why don't all online gambling sites guarantee that you always "win" something? Perhaps even if you lose, you get some kind of virtual item, like a cabbage let's say? Then they could totally avoid the anti-gambling laws. Everyone's a winner*!

 

*some moreso than others

[Jonanananas]

Thankfully the Squeal of Fortune spins are too goddamn expensive to really be abuseable. But the general idea behind it is really shitty. Especially because it is gambling regardless of what Jagex claims. Getting a cabbage isn't "winning", that's "losing", and when there's losing, it's "gambling". The fact that you spend real money to do so could actually make it illegal in some countries.

 

I actually hope somebody files a lawsuit against Jagex for online gambling (as well as letting kids use their parent's credit cards without need any confirmation to do so) and they have to get rid of this Squeal of Fortune payment crap.

 

While anyone on an MMO would likely agree with those terms the loophole is the fact that in literal terms as seen by law and such as long as you get something you have 'won' it does not matter the value.

 

Then why don't all online gambling sites guarantee that you always "win" something? Perhaps even if you lose, you get some kind of virtual item, like a cabbage let's say? Then they could totally avoid the anti-gambling laws. Everyone's a winner*!

 

*some moreso than others

 

 

The real reason why it doesn't qualify as gambling in real world laws is because you can only get Runescape items, which have no real world value.

[stonewall337]

Thankfully the Squeal of Fortune spins are too goddamn expensive to really be abuseable. But the general idea behind it is really shitty. Especially because it is gambling regardless of what Jagex claims. Getting a cabbage isn't "winning", that's "losing", and when there's losing, it's "gambling". The fact that you spend real money to do so could actually make it illegal in some countries.

 

I actually hope somebody files a lawsuit against Jagex for online gambling (as well as letting kids use their parent's credit cards without need any confirmation to do so) and they have to get rid of this Squeal of Fortune payment crap.

 

While anyone on an MMO would likely agree with those terms the loophole is the fact that in literal terms as seen by law and such as long as you get something you have 'won' it does not matter the value.

 

Then why don't all online gambling sites guarantee that you always "win" something? Perhaps even if you lose, you get some kind of virtual item, like a cabbage let's say? Then they could totally avoid the anti-gambling laws. Everyone's a winner*!

 

*some moreso than others

 

 

The real reason why it doesn't qualify as gambling in real world laws is because you can only get Runescape items, which have no real world value.

^^^FIRST OFF, simply not true. Internationally, precedent has been set stating that there is a value to virtual goods.

http://www.law.emory.edu/fileadmin/journals/elj/57/57.5/Arias.pdf

 

http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/dltr/articles/2010dltr011.html

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/01/31/dutch-supreme-court-declares-runescape-theft-a-real-world-crime/

 

http://digitalguise.com/archives/750

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/9053870/Online-game-theft-earns-real-world-conviction.html

 

http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~eroberts/cs181/projects/2010-11/EconomiesOfVirtualWorlds/exchange.html

 

"From a stricter economic standpoint the fact that people are willing to pay real money for virtual goods and currencies demonstrates the validity of virtual markets"

 

And I could go on and on and on. This notion of valueless virtual goods is flawed and false.

 

Virtual goods have REAL WORLD VALUE.

 

Also read the Tip.it Times for today.

 

 

Wow. This might be enough to make me want to finish off DG, even though I hate the RWT.

[Crossed_Body]

 

The real reason why it doesn't qualify as gambling in real world laws is because you can only get Runescape items, which have no real world value.

 

Except that's a lie. I can go on the web right now and see people willing to buy and sell 0.6$/mill. Everything that is desireable to people has an inherent value.

[Mazhar]

It's not faulty to assume assume benefits given to all players will help those who need it more than those who have already figured out how to work around it in a time reductive manner. Consider the analogy of a person who had to solve a graphical math equation and used his intuition to figure it out, where as someone else may be unable to do so. If they were both given a graphing calculator the person that was incapable will be able to do it nearly as fast as someone with the intuition to do it mentally.

[BlissfulElf]

 

Thanks for linking to your YouTube video here, I'm now sharing it.

 

-BlissfulElf on RS

[Jonanananas]

 

The real reason why it doesn't qualify as gambling in real world laws is because you can only get Runescape items, which have no real world value.

 

Except that's a lie. I can go on the web right now and see people willing to buy and sell 0.6$/mill. Everything that is desireable to people has an inherent value.

 

It depends on what courts think of it. I *personally* agree with you....but it looks like courts don't. Or, at least not always. If you were sueing Jagex, you could potentially win, assuming you have equally skilled lawyers on both sides. Since this is very unclear though, and Jagex can afford good lawyers, they would be winning any court case on this.

[Crossed_Body]

It's not faulty to assume assume benefits given to all players will help those who need it more than those who have already figured out how to work around it in a time reductive manner. Consider the analogy of a person who had to solve a graphical math equation and used his intuition to figure it out, where as someone else may be unable to do so. If they were both given a graphing calculator the person that was incapable will be able to do it nearly as fast as someone with the intuition to do it mentally.

 

Your point being? Do you feel the need to be superior by boasting about your dg times?

 

The dging changes are beneficial to everybody and detrimental to nobody, complaining about them is illogical.

[stonewall337]

 

The real reason why it doesn't qualify as gambling in real world laws is because you can only get Runescape items, which have no real world value.

 

Except that's a lie. I can go on the web right now and see people willing to buy and sell 0.6$/mill. Everything that is desireable to people has an inherent value.

 

It depends on what courts think of it. I *personally* agree with you....but it looks like courts don't. Or, at least not always. If you were sueing Jagex, you could potentially win, assuming you have equally skilled lawyers on both sides. Since this is very unclear though, and Jagex can afford good lawyers, they would be winning any court case on this.

 

You keep on getting yourself deeper and deeper. Court cases, as shown, have proven virtual goods have real world value. If I were banned for selling RSGP (which I don't) then I could sue Jagex.

[Jonanananas]

 

The real reason why it doesn't qualify as gambling in real world laws is because you can only get Runescape items, which have no real world value.

 

Except that's a lie. I can go on the web right now and see people willing to buy and sell 0.6$/mill. Everything that is desireable to people has an inherent value.

 

It depends on what courts think of it. I *personally* agree with you....but it looks like courts don't. Or, at least not always. If you were sueing Jagex, you could potentially win, assuming you have equally skilled lawyers on both sides. Since this is very unclear though, and Jagex can afford good lawyers, they would be winning any court case on this.

 

You keep on getting yourself deeper and deeper. Court cases, as shown, have proven virtual goods have real world value. If I were banned for selling RSGP (which I don't) then I could sue Jagex.

 

But, as far as I'm aware, this is not absolutely clear...and I never said you wouldn't be right. I said you would probably not win a court case against them. I personally believe you should win though. Granted, I'm in no way a legal expert though.

[Mazhar]

It's not faulty to assume assume benefits given to all players will help those who need it more than those who have already figured out how to work around it in a time reductive manner. Consider the analogy of a person who had to solve a graphical math equation and used his intuition to figure it out, where as someone else may be unable to do so. If they were both given a graphing calculator the person that was incapable will be able to do it nearly as fast as someone with the intuition to do it mentally.

 

Your point being? Do you feel the need to be superior by boasting about your dg times?

 

The dging changes are beneficial to everybody and detrimental to nobody, complaining about them is illogical.

With that mentality making everything easier would be the ideological approach however that isnt the case. It makes it easier for those who dungeoneer reluctantly for the sake of reward rather than for the sake of enjoyment, and from your attitude I don't think youd dungeoner for the sake of dungeonering but rather what good can come fromt it whether it be levels or tokens you are after.

[Octarine]

It's not faulty to assume assume benefits given to all players will help those who need it more than those who have already figured out how to work around it in a time reductive manner. Consider the analogy of a person who had to solve a graphical math equation and used his intuition to figure it out, where as someone else may be unable to do so. If they were both given a graphing calculator the person that was incapable will be able to do it nearly as fast as someone with the intuition to do it mentally.

 

Your point being? Do you feel the need to be superior by boasting about your dg times?

 

The dging changes are beneficial to everybody and detrimental to nobody, complaining about them is illogical.

With that mentality making everything easier would be the ideological approach however that isnt the case. It makes it easier for those who dungeoneer reluctantly for the sake of reward rather than for the sake of enjoyment, and from your attitude I don't think youd dungeoner for the sake of dungeonering but rather what good can come fromt it whether it be levels or tokens you are after.

If it makes dungeoneering more accessible, I don't see the problem with it. From what I've seen a lot of people go in with the goal of chaotics, get hooked on the skill anyway and end up really enjoying it in the end, and from that you can move onto trying to improve dungeoneering skill

Obviously this lessens the gap slightly, but at least they aren't nerfing rushing, which is what a lot of us feared

[Crossed_Body]

With that mentality making everything easier would be the ideological approach however that isnt the case.

Making something more newbie friendly isn't a bad thing. It'll pull more people into the skill, and they'll hopefully enjoy it more that way. There's a difference between doing that and simply trivializing a skill into becoming just another menial task to overcome.

 

 

It makes it easier for those who dungeoneer reluctantly for the sake of reward rather than for the sake of enjoyment

 

And that's bad? Is one of those two players inherently worse than the other? That's pushing it a little bit, no?

 

 

, and from your attitude I don't think youd dungeoner for the sake of dungeonering but rather what good can come fromt it whether it be levels or tokens you are after.

You can make assumptions all you want to. I take great joy in dungeoneering, both alone and in groups.

[muggiwhplar]

Isn't narrowing the gap between the elitists and the "noobs" a good thing?

[aspeeder]

Isn't narrowing the gap between the elitists and the "noobs" a good thing?

It's only replacing the gap in the virtual world with the income gap in the real world, not to mention all the security risks and havoc kids could wreak with the conformation problems.

[999134]

was referring to dungeoneering there I think, and I pretty much agree with him.

[spooferfish]

I love the dungeoneering updates. It makes sense that primal picks and hatchets exist now.

Sharing keys....wow. :D

[Sinkhan]

DG updates should also make C2 fishing just a teensy bit easier :smile:

 

I'm withholding judgement on everything else it has all basically been already said.

[strilmus]

since the dg updates to me represents a reduction in "lazy and stupid difficulty" rather than removing an actual feature that people care about, i'm counting it as positive

 

if it were supposed to be ridiculously tedious, then we wouldn't have binds, or ring types, or a hood that lets you skip several rooms just to shuttle keys around, which is just fine for you but we can't have anything else(sure, a hood that lets me avoid tons of fights, and it's given completely by chance, nothing wrong with that and we require it for all pro teams, but shared keys? GTFO)

 

this is why normal mario games are not designed to be pixel perfect platforming, and why i don't take these complaints seriously anymore

[Blutters]

Starting out with all the tools would slightly encourage me to DG. It's like I can go straight out the door.

I don't like the sound of stackable resources though. It made sense for Essence since they're just a bunch of tiny uncharged runestones around the size of coins. It does not make sense for logs, bars, hides, etc... They're relatively large. I'm forced to wonder what will actually be filling our inventories now without tools and keys. I'm guessing herbs will remain unstackable, but there's really no guarantee.

These days, the only dungeons I do are with friends, and although we're active the entire time, we each perform some unnecessary skilling, so I can dig starting out with a T9 pick/T10 axe, and I suppose the stackable resources will help with that too. Maybe these are J's attempt to get people to skill?

I'm on the fence about a key belt. It's very frustrating to lose keys or have someone maliciously take them (not that that happens often) or have to collect them at HT if someone DCs. But this seems like too much. A spell to teleport the keys would fit better. Honestly, though, I will enjoy having that little bit of extra ease.

[Cheefoo]

The way the worded the info on the toolbelt in Daemonheim leads me to believe you can't permanently add higher tier tools (pickaxe, hatchet). They say something like "once you find them, you can stick them in your toolbelt to save inventory space". So if you get a better pickaxe or hatchet, you can add it to your toolbelt just to save space, not to keep it after the dungeon (permanently).

[J35u5_M4]

The way the worded the info on the toolbelt in Daemonheim leads me to believe you can't permanently add higher tier tools (pickaxe, hatchet). They say something like "once you find them, you can stick them in your toolbelt to save inventory space". So if you get a better pickaxe or hatchet, you can add it to your toolbelt just to save space, not to keep it after the dungeon (permanently).

 

This would actually make more sense, considering how the current toolbelt works