what explains the efficacy of goliath gloves on corp?

[enfield]

Some smart people on the 200m xp thread were talking about how they had determined monster's combat stat levels - for example I think it was said that zilyana's magic level is 300. Now, I haven't actually thought about how they did this - and i don't really want to if I don't have to - so what I don't know is if that's an effective magic level of 300 , or an actual magic level of 300 (as in zilyana operates like a player with level 300 magic, using whatever spell it is she does).

 

Why does it matter? Well if Corp has combat levels in the 100's, then I don't see how the goliath gloves would be effective at all. If on the other hand his defense is <100 and comes primarily from defense bonus, then of course one can see why the gloves might be good.

 

Can someone clarify this for me? Thanks.

[Powerfrog]

Sorry i don't know how the defense levels work either, but i can say that goliaths DO wreck corp pretty quickly. 10 glove specs will leave him considerably lower defense, so i can't imagine his defense is >500. Although it does appear to be above 99 as he will definately continue to be difficult to hit until well over 30 glove specs. At least in my short experience there.

[Ambler]

Well, as the specs are cumulative, the drain lessens over time. If it's a 10% drain, and his defense starts at 100:

100

90

81

72.9

65.61

59.05

53.14

47.83

43.05

38.74

Etc...

Just do

DefenseLevel*(100*X to the Y)

Where Y is number of specs, and X is (1-(percentage reduction/100)) (So 10% is 0.9)

Pretty sure my maths is right.

 

Edit: Let's say corp is 300 defense, 10 specs will leave him at 105 defense, 15 at 61, 20 at 36. :blink:

 

Stat hammer is 30% each time, improving the drain even furthur (4 specs takes it from 300 to 72 defense)

[Quyneax]

Combat level for monsters are assumed to be calculated the same way as for players. Goliath gloves reduce combat stats by 7 each spec.

 

Corp has 2000 constitution, 785 combat, 513 max hit with melee according to one YT video (monster examine reveals melee max only iirc).

First of all, 513 max hit with no equipment, prayers or potions translates to 500 strength level (convenient, no?) assuming accurate or defensive style.

 

A creature with 2000 hp, 500 str will have 662 combat if all other stats are 0.

 

2000 * 1/4 = 500 levels from hp

500 * 13/40 = 162,5 levels from strength.

Every defence level will add one quarter to that, so that leaves 492 levels for defence. It would allow up to ~335 magic levels as well (and ranged).

 

However that would mean no attack levels, not very likely imo. I think it's more likely that corp has 300 attack and 100 defence. 2000*.25 = 500, 300+500 * 13/40 = 260, 100*.25 = 25, totals at 785 combat exactly. It would allow a magic level of 500 as well (up to 535, approximately).

 

This would mean ten goliath glove specials reduces the defence to about 30, strength to about 430, attack to about 230.

Three swh specs would reduce the defence to about 34.

A bgs spec would reduce the defence by at most 35 levels.

Even a darklight spec would be very significant.

 

That would require some defence bonusus at least, corp definitely is harder to hit than an unarmoured player with 99 defence. But on the other hand it's way more accurate than a player with 1 attack as well so bonusus will come into it either way.

[enfield]

ah thanks for the reply Quyneax. Those calculations gave me a better picture of things..

 

So I guess the conclusion is that Corp does actually have a pretty low defense level . Okay. It must have a high defense bonus then, right?

 

by the way, IIRC there is a vid of someone using goliaths on corp and then hitting fairly accurately with Soa. So perhaps its magic level is also ~100.

[Quyneax]

by the way, IIRC there is a vid of someone using goliaths on corp and then hitting fairly accurately with Soa. So perhaps its magic level is also ~100.

Very possible, you can't really determine magic level as its magic max hit is not neccessarily based on mage level. You could test accuracy but that'd be a massive pain.

 

I know at least of one vid (Born for Pvm?) where a ton of people bgs spec corp to low mage def (since the order is def > str > att > (pray) > mage that's a lot of specs).

 

But overall it should be noted I'm not at all sure that corp has 300 attack/100 def. They fit very nicely with 2000 hp/500 str and the apparently huge def reduction by goliaths, but there is no solid evidence.

[TC3]

Sorry i don't know how the defense levels work either, but i can say that goliaths DO wreck corp pretty quickly. 10 glove specs will leave him considerably lower defense, so i can't imagine his defense is >500. Although it does appear to be above 99 as he will definately continue to be difficult to hit until well over 30 glove specs. At least in my short experience there.

I corp solo quite a bit and 30 glove specials until he is no longer difficult to hit? I have done kills where I glove spec him as few as 3 times and even with very low bgs hits I still hit with my spear very often. If you're talking about being difficult to hit with GLOVES then I see what you mean :P Just had to ask.

[Hedgehog]

I'm a bit late with posting this, since I haven't paid much attention to H&A the last few days.

 

Effective level is equal to Floor((Floor(Level * Prayer Boost + 0-14 (depends on defense level) for turm) + 8 + Attack style bonus)*Void bonus).

 

You can calculate the defense of a monster using max attack rolls as well:

 

Max attack roll = EA * (64 + Equipment Bonus)

 

Since the max attack roll is known, you can attack a monster and record hits and misses to figure out the accuracy. MAR and accuracy can be used to figure out the defense roll using the following formula:

 

if A < 50% A = (Att-1) / (2Def)

if A > 50% A = 1 - (Def+1) / (2Att)

if A = 50% Att = Def

 

From there you can solve for the defense roll.

[enfield]

you're not late.

 

okay, i understand how one would go about getting a defense roll , but of course that doesn't say anything about the defense level, which is the pertinent thing to goliaths. Maybe i misunderstood the 200m xp thread discussion, but i think they were using monster examine to see how the max hit changed when they reduced the thing's stats by an absolute amount or defined percentage of the level . Then with that information one can - i think - finally determine the variables in the defense roll calculation (i.e defense bonus and level) - because there are 3 unknowns and now you know 2 :).

[Hedgehog]

A lot of monsters use defense rating to determine combat level now (example: the barrows brothers).

 

Idk why you'd want to know defense level. It just means taking an extra step every time you need to calculate accuracy.

[enfield]

you need to know the defense level to gauge the efficacy of goliaths.

[Hedgehog]

Oh. Well then you'd need to figure out what its equipment bonuses are.

 

Have fun with that.

[enfield]

Oh. Well then you'd need to figure out what its equipment bonuses are.

 

Have fun with that.

 

what is "it"?

[Quyneax]

Corp.

 

@Hedgehog: Do you have any proof the combat level is based on defence roll rather than, say, a summoning level or so?

[enfield]

okay ill assume corp is 'it'.

 

yeah hedgehog, you would have to figure that out. but i think people have done it successfully for things, or at least they claim to have, via this method i saw mentioned in the 200m xp thread -

 

i think they were using monster examine to see how the max hit changed when they reduced the thing's stats by an absolute amount or defined percentage of the level . Then with that information one can - i think - finally determine the variables in the defense roll calculation (i.e defense bonus and level) - because there are 3 unknowns and now you know 2 :).

.

 

===

 

cb being based on rolls instead of levels would seem to imply that corp would be weaker than it is, i think.

[Hedgehog]

I didn't say corp was roll based, just some new stuff.

 

Like if its combat went up after that update, it switched to roll.

 

Most monsters are still based on level, though.

[enfield]

what's the proof that it switched to roll for things like wyverns - did jagex say?

 

 

hedgehog i feel like you've been so oblique at addressing one of the Big Questions of this whole thread, even with my prodding. Are people really determining the the equipment bonuses and levels of things to a good degree of accuracy? that's what I want your opinion on - thanks.

[Hedgehog]

Look up the news post. That's what I interpreted it as.

 

And no, it's not accurate at all.

[enfield]

okay i'm going to trust your interpretations on both accounts.

[Powerfrog]

Sorry i don't know how the defense levels work either, but i can say that goliaths DO wreck corp pretty quickly. 10 glove specs will leave him considerably lower defense, so i can't imagine his defense is >500. Although it does appear to be above 99 as he will definately continue to be difficult to hit until well over 30 glove specs. At least in my short experience there.

I corp solo quite a bit and 30 glove specials until he is no longer difficult to hit? I have done kills where I glove spec him as few as 3 times and even with very low bgs hits I still hit with my spear very often. If you're talking about being difficult to hit with GLOVES then I see what you mean :P Just had to ask.

Hah. I mean still significantly more than an unarmoured 1 defense player.

 

Perhaps he does have an equipment bonus, which would be why after several glove specs and huge bgs hits you still miss occasionally (like 5-10%, opposed to >1% on a pure)

[Hedgehog]

You can drain him to 0 def and collect hit/miss data.

[Quyneax]

Look up the news post. That's what I interpreted it as.

The news post than went with the release of the Barrows update doesn't even mention the combat level change. According to RSwiki the combat level was updated then. So I don't know what you refer to, maybe a FAQ or Q&A? Atm there's nothing to suggest combat levels based on rolls.

[Hedgehog]

Might have been patch notes.

 

They said something like, "certain cb levels have been adjusted to show the monsters true effectiveness in combat."

 

Ill look it up later