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Is there a God?


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#21
champion
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I won't say either way, as I am a skeptic among quite a few of those options, but against the Christian God I have one argument, dinosaurs.


You're talking about fundementalists here, not normal christians. You can disprove fundamentals(regardless of which religion) so easily it's quite boring (Plus it doesn't achieve anything as they just ignore you).
Besides, the bible never claimed the earth is 6000 years old. You arrive at that number by adding together all the years of the genealogy since Adam and Eve - While completely ignoring that the description of Genesis was never intended to be taken literally, not even at the time of writing. We even know when those passages were written, and why.

Yet, it says that there was literally nothing no light, no land, no water. If we are to take it as it is written we would believe that Earth was 6000 years old and these fossils are weird fakes.


Yes, if we take it literally. You are not supposed to though. It doesn't make any sense and you were never supposed to.

Yet, if we do not take it literally we lose a lot of the power held with god. Without taking that he created the earth at the very least we have a figure of power who speaks to people without being there, does really cool magic tricks, and gives people the ability to heal...

You can believe God created the universe without the literal Adam and Eve seven-day interpretation. It doesn't really make a God as a whole an invalid theory.

 


#22
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I won't say either way, as I am a skeptic among quite a few of those options, but against the Christian God I have one argument, dinosaurs.


You're talking about fundementalists here, not normal christians. You can disprove fundamentals(regardless of which religion) so easily it's quite boring (Plus it doesn't achieve anything as they just ignore you).
Besides, the bible never claimed the earth is 6000 years old. You arrive at that number by adding together all the years of the genealogy since Adam and Eve - While completely ignoring that the description of Genesis was never intended to be taken literally, not even at the time of writing. We even know when those passages were written, and why.

Yet, it says that there was literally nothing no light, no land, no water. If we are to take it as it is written we would believe that Earth was 6000 years old and these fossils are weird fakes.


Yes, if we take it literally. You are not supposed to though. It doesn't make any sense and you were never supposed to.

Yet, if we do not take it literally we lose a lot of the power held with god. Without taking that he created the earth at the very least we have a figure of power who speaks to people without being there, does really cool magic tricks, and gives people the ability to heal...


I'm not saying you should see everything as a metaphor, but parts of it. That god created the earth can be taken literally(in the view of the religion of course). Saying that humans evolved from Adam and Eve obviously can't.
Working with religious text can be really difficult because you have to be extremely careful about what to take literally and what to view as metaphors.

#23
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Yet if you just take it as a no god approach, everything is justified without half the interpreting. Yet I am still a skeptic.

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#24
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This topic reminds me of David Mitchell's idea of the Athiest's Heaven (oh what a funny idea).

I personally do not believe that there is a god - the idea of 'some' almighty entity that can somehow control everything. (Get's reminded of Eddie Izzard's stand-up) heh. If I were to compare the years of empirical evidence shown through science to the bible. I have a fairly grounded belief that there is no god.

But what do I know afterall - I am just a monkey.
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#25
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The world is too complex to have been created by chance.

That doesn't even make sense.

Things are complex because of systems that have created themselves. How did these systems come to be? Random chance mixed with them being complex enough to self replicate and survive. It's called evolution. Besides, the world is far from perfect, which you'd assume an omniscient being would be able to create.

To say anything is too complex to have been created by chance is to VASTLY underestimate how many things that could possibly happen by chance.



chance is pretty damn low dude. Studying biology this year (specifically nerve impulses) makes me more than sure that there is something else out there than "random [wagon] luck" to create the universe around us.

#26
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Yep. Vastly underestimating how many things can possibly happen. Add a few billion 0's to yours and you might get close to the smallest measurable fraction of how many things could have possibly happened in the time i typed this post. Just kidding. Not even close.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm trying to say.

Life as we know it relied on a TINY chance of a self replicated organism existing. After that, life had to hope this organism lived long enough to replicate itself enough times for it's kin to replicate and eventually make survival almost inevitable. Again, a TINY chance. But after that, we have life. Life no longer relies on any tiny chances, it's here, and unless mass genocide happens and wipes out all life, it's here to stay. That's just on earth by the way. We're not talking about the other octillion similar planets.

Edited by Kimberly, 07 May 2012 - 12:28 AM.
Please put large quote chains in hide tags thank you!

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#27
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@Vezon
Actually, considering the chances. Assuming in our galaxy (the milky way) there are morethan 6,000,000,000 stars (just checked wiki - it is estimated 300 billion stars), and assuming each of them having their own solar system and there may be a likelihood hood that they have "goldilocks" condiitons. Such stars I can think of off the top of my head are gliese 581 specifically refering to the 4th planet "gliese 581d". Such planets are thought to host life.

Now assuming there might be many many many galaxies each with billions of stars. The chance of a hospitable planet is quite likely. The number of planets being able to support life seem all that more likely.
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#28
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I never said a god created it, but from what we know we can say the universe has only existed for a certain number of hundred billions years. Therefore it is logical reasoning that some unknown force or deity or random act or pre-universe matter form had to do something, be it planned or coincidental, that resulted in the universe being.

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#29
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@Vezon
Actually, considering the chances. Assuming in our galaxy (the milky way) there are morethan 6,000,000,000 stars, and assuming each of them having their own solar system and there may be a likelihood hood that they have "goldilocks" condiitons. Such stars I can think of off the top of my head are gliese 581 specifically refering to the 4th planet "gliese 581d". Such planets are thought to host life.

Now assuming there might be many many many galaxies each with billions of stars. The chance of a hospitable planet is quite likely. The number of planets being able to support life seem all that more likely.



I never said that "God" created us and only us. There are billions of other planets and solar systems, and there very well could be other forms of life out there.

Edited by Kimberly, 07 May 2012 - 12:28 AM.
Please try to keep a level head during discussions - thanks!!


#30
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@Vezon
Actually, considering the chances. Assuming in our galaxy (the milky way) there are morethan 6,000,000,000 stars, and assuming each of them having their own solar system and there may be a likelihood hood that they have "goldilocks" condiitons. Such stars I can think of off the top of my head are gliese 581 specifically refering to the 4th planet "gliese 581d". Such planets are thought to host life.

Now assuming there might be many many many galaxies each with billions of stars. The chance of a hospitable planet is quite likely. The number of planets being able to support life seem all that more likely.



I never said that "God" created us and only us. There are billions of other planets and solar systems, and there very well could be other forms of life out there.

I was commenting on that the chance of us existing is not exactly a chance.
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#31
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I was actually replying to Powerfrog directly, just broke the quote chain, but yeah the points do kind of converge.

Edited by Kimberly, 07 May 2012 - 12:29 AM.
Removed quote. :)

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#32
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I never said a god created it, but from what we know we can say the universe has only existed for a certain number of hundred billions years. Therefore it is logical reasoning that some unknown force or deity or random act or pre-universe matter form had to do something, be it planned or coincidental, that resulted in the universe being.

Why? What makes it logical to you that existence should be older than x hundred billion years?

It just doesn't make any sense to think that the age of the universe changes anything. Especially with our inability to even grasp that length of time.

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#33
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I never said a god created it, but from what we know we can say the universe has only existed for a certain number of hundred billions years. Therefore it is logical reasoning that some unknown force or deity or random act or pre-universe matter form had to do something, be it planned or coincidental, that resulted in the universe being.

Why? What makes it logical to you that existence should be older than x hundred billion years?

It just doesn't make any sense to think that the age of the universe changes anything. Especially with our inability to even grasp that length of time.


I never said it changed anything; you said to you a god would have to have created the universe to class as a god and that this was 'technically impossible'. I was simply following this through to the point that we know the universe has a point at which it began and therefore (based on cause and effect principle) logically some unknown factor caused the universe to be created. Whilst it certainly may be beyond our scientific grasp to create a universe it did in fact happen and our science knowledge logically dictates that something must of caused it, whatever that something may be.

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#34
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I never said a god created it, but from what we know we can say the universe has only existed for a certain number of hundred billions years. Therefore it is logical reasoning that some unknown force or deity or random act or pre-universe matter form had to do something, be it planned or coincidental, that resulted in the universe being.

Why? What makes it logical to you that existence should be older than x hundred billion years?

It just doesn't make any sense to think that the age of the universe changes anything. Especially with our inability to even grasp that length of time.


I never said it changed anything; you said to you a god would have to have created the universe to class as a god and that this was 'technically impossible'. I was simply following this through to the point that we know the universe has a point at which it began and therefore (based on cause and effect principle) logically some unknown factor caused the universe to be created. Whilst it certainly may be beyond our scientific grasp to create a universe it did in fact happen and our science knowledge logically dictates that something must of caused it, whatever that something may be.

Oh i see. This doesn't mean that something created the universe though. The universe just creating itself is more likely as it doesn't rely on something existing before it to create it, which is just backstepping into the exact same question of "what created that?"

I am not saying that's what happened, again, we can't possibly know. But using pure logic, it's more logical.

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#35
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Nothing on this Earth was just created out of mid-air. Nothing "just happened". The Earth is so diverse and complicated that the chances of that happening again somewhere else is overwhelmingly impossible. Someone had to have created it. I mean, look around you! Do you think that the tree outside and the bird flying over JUST APPEARED? Do you believe that every beautiful animal and flower and plant just made itself? God also designed everything, not just make. He designed that plant to make it's food. It designed that animal to be fast. God designed YOU and your organs and your body. All these things couldn't have "just happened". God didn't just make the Earth and step back and let things work by themselves. He is working in each person to guide them in their lives. God is not restrained to time, either. He is the past, present, and future. IS, not was or were. Yes, it's a lot to think about. It takes a lot of faith, too. Faith in something you can't see. (Like air: you can't see it, but you know you're breathing it right?)
Man says, "Give me a sign, and then I'll believe." God says, "Believe, and then you will know."

Edited by Kimberly, 07 May 2012 - 12:32 AM.
Please stay on topic, thanks!

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Bokura wa wakai'n da

Nanimo dekinai
Sugu ni dekinai
Dakara bokura ni kanou sei ga aru'n da


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#36
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It's impossible to know definitively if there is indeed a "higher power", so engaging in debates about it is useless.

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#37
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Pretty safe to say gods are by definition omnipotent and omniscient (which follows from omnipotence) - if they're not that I wouldn't call them gods anyway. That gets you in all sorts of trouble regarding multiple gods and their relative power of course. Personally I view it as a *infinity multiplier to power.

Really there's nothing you can say about them, just like you can't talk about 'infinity' being divided by four, or four divided by zero. The answer is 'outside' logic.

If gods are omnipotent they are capable of hiding their existence to us. And they are also capable of, say, faking a pantheon. Or maybe a pantheon faking a single god. The possibilies are quite extensive.

One interesting take on this is that gods are all-powerful in the sense that they compromise the entire universe. However since the only thing that takes up the entire universe is the universe itself, the universe must be god. Sort of a stupid reasoning imo but there ya go :P.

I have to argue agains the 'The world is too complex to have been created by chance.' argument. Chances of any random universe developing into one as we know it, may be pretty slim (we can't really tell of course but it's a possibility). But you can never, ever make a statement about the chances of something happening based on just one outcome. Unless you got a couple of universes in your pocket which did not develop as ours, you're just not making sense.

You can't really argue evolution (without also arguing all evidence-based theories), as we've seen it happen, live (well over the past 300 years or so anyway). And there's no reason not to extrapolate that to some 13.7 billion years ago. Then again, we extrapolate our faces behind mirrors every day and who can tell history isn't exactly like that?
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#38
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I'm going to throw my vote in with there are no gods. There very well could be some form of deity out there, but from what we know about the universe there is little reason to believe there is one, and even less reason to believe in a specific god.

As for the bible, I find it curious how as technology and human understanding progress, more and more of it becomes 'metaphorical'. If there is a god, why has he never shown himself? Why would he give humans free will then demand they follow his moral code? The bible states that god created 2 sources of light; the sun and the moon. We now know that the moon only reflects light, and isn't a source of it. If the bible is really the word of god, why would he be wrong about that? I could go on and on about the contradictions in the bible, but then I would be typing all night.

#39
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And Kimberly, while baseless drivel like "GOD IS TRUE BECAUSE HE'S IN MY HEART" is useless, intelligent discussion using logic, facts and reason can be eye opening and is the only way we'll ever find out. Assuming he doesn't come down and say hello, that is.

Edited by Kimberly, 07 May 2012 - 12:33 AM.
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#40
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