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Is there a God?


Crocefisso
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  1. 1. Is there a God or Gods?

    • Yes, there is one God
    • Yes, there are many deities
    • There are no gods/God
    • I am unsure
    • Other (please specify)


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"I believe god could possibly exist, but for him to exist everything we know about the universe must be completely wrong."

 

What exactly do you mean by that? Why couldn't a god exist without our knowledge being completely false?

To qualify as god you have to be impossible, which is impossible.

 

A few examples. God created the universe from nothing. You can't create energy, impossible. (How did it get here? I don't know. Yet.)

God is omnipotent. Which of course is impossible and there are several paradoxes at the very simplest level.

 

Basically, any feature that makes God a god breaks several laws of physics. And if a "god" exists that doesn't have these features, he's not a god.

 

The trouble here is: None of those are REQUIRED to be a god. Most are entirely untrue of pagan, greek, roman and norse gods.

They are just qualities given to certain gods of major religions that can be used as flaws for why they can't be true.

 

I see the main qualifier to be god is to create the universe. Anything that doesn't do that, but for example, can lift trucks with it's little finger, isn't "god" in my eyes, and isn't what I'm saying is technically impossible with our current knowledge.

 

Well we know SOMETHING had to create the universe from nothing, we just do not know what as we are unable to determine any way to actually create matter (opposed to just converting it from one type to another).

Why do you jump to their being something to create the universe. That is 1 step MORE complex than the universe simply existing and brings the question "but what created god, and what created the thing that created god?". We don't "know" something created the universe.

*small number* chance is pretty damn low dude. Studying biology this year (specifically nerve impulses) makes me more than sure that there is something else out there than "random [wagon] luck" to create the universe around us.

[/hide]

 

Yep. Vastly underestimating how many things can possibly happen. Add a few billion 0's to yours and you might get close to the smallest measurable fraction of how many things could have possibly happened in the time i typed this post. Just kidding. Not even close.

 

I'm not sure you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

Life as we know it relied on a TINY chance of a self replicated organism existing. After that, life had to hope this organism lived long enough to replicate itself enough times for it's kin to replicate and eventually make survival almost inevitable. Again, a TINY chance. But after that, we have life. Life no longer relies on any tiny chances, it's here, and unless mass genocide happens and wipes out all life, it's here to stay. That's just on earth by the way. We're not talking about the other octillion similar planets.

Edited by Kimberly
Please put large quote chains in hide tags thank you!

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@Vezon

Actually, considering the chances. Assuming in our galaxy (the milky way) there are morethan 6,000,000,000 stars (just checked wiki - it is estimated 300 billion stars), and assuming each of them having their own solar system and there may be a likelihood hood that they have "goldilocks" condiitons. Such stars I can think of off the top of my head are gliese 581 specifically refering to the 4th planet "gliese 581d". Such planets are thought to host life.

 

Now assuming there might be many many many galaxies each with billions of stars. The chance of a hospitable planet is quite likely. The number of planets being able to support life seem all that more likely.

Luck be a Lady

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I never said a god created it, but from what we know we can say the universe has only existed for a certain number of hundred billions years. Therefore it is logical reasoning that some unknown force or deity or random act or pre-universe matter form had to do something, be it planned or coincidental, that resulted in the universe being.

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@Vezon

Actually, considering the chances. Assuming in our galaxy (the milky way) there are morethan 6,000,000,000 stars, and assuming each of them having their own solar system and there may be a likelihood hood that they have "goldilocks" condiitons. Such stars I can think of off the top of my head are gliese 581 specifically refering to the 4th planet "gliese 581d". Such planets are thought to host life.

 

Now assuming there might be many many many galaxies each with billions of stars. The chance of a hospitable planet is quite likely. The number of planets being able to support life seem all that more likely.

 

 

I never said that "God" created us and only us. There are billions of other planets and solar systems, and there very well could be other forms of life out there.

Edited by Kimberly
Please try to keep a level head during discussions - thanks!!
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@Vezon

Actually, considering the chances. Assuming in our galaxy (the milky way) there are morethan 6,000,000,000 stars, and assuming each of them having their own solar system and there may be a likelihood hood that they have "goldilocks" condiitons. Such stars I can think of off the top of my head are gliese 581 specifically refering to the 4th planet "gliese 581d". Such planets are thought to host life.

 

Now assuming there might be many many many galaxies each with billions of stars. The chance of a hospitable planet is quite likely. The number of planets being able to support life seem all that more likely.

 

 

I never said that "God" created us and only us. There are billions of other planets and solar systems, and there very well could be other forms of life out there.

 

I was commenting on that the chance of us existing is not exactly a chance.

Luck be a Lady

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I was actually replying to Powerfrog directly, just broke the quote chain, but yeah the points do kind of converge.

Edited by Kimberly
Removed quote. :)

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I never said a god created it, but from what we know we can say the universe has only existed for a certain number of hundred billions years. Therefore it is logical reasoning that some unknown force or deity or random act or pre-universe matter form had to do something, be it planned or coincidental, that resulted in the universe being.

Why? What makes it logical to you that existence should be older than x hundred billion years?

 

It just doesn't make any sense to think that the age of the universe changes anything. Especially with our inability to even grasp that length of time.

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I never said a god created it, but from what we know we can say the universe has only existed for a certain number of hundred billions years. Therefore it is logical reasoning that some unknown force or deity or random act or pre-universe matter form had to do something, be it planned or coincidental, that resulted in the universe being.

Why? What makes it logical to you that existence should be older than x hundred billion years?

 

It just doesn't make any sense to think that the age of the universe changes anything. Especially with our inability to even grasp that length of time.

 

I never said it changed anything; you said to you a god would have to have created the universe to class as a god and that this was 'technically impossible'. I was simply following this through to the point that we know the universe has a point at which it began and therefore (based on cause and effect principle) logically some unknown factor caused the universe to be created. Whilst it certainly may be beyond our scientific grasp to create a universe it did in fact happen and our science knowledge logically dictates that something must of caused it, whatever that something may be.

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I never said a god created it, but from what we know we can say the universe has only existed for a certain number of hundred billions years. Therefore it is logical reasoning that some unknown force or deity or random act or pre-universe matter form had to do something, be it planned or coincidental, that resulted in the universe being.

Why? What makes it logical to you that existence should be older than x hundred billion years?

 

It just doesn't make any sense to think that the age of the universe changes anything. Especially with our inability to even grasp that length of time.

 

I never said it changed anything; you said to you a god would have to have created the universe to class as a god and that this was 'technically impossible'. I was simply following this through to the point that we know the universe has a point at which it began and therefore (based on cause and effect principle) logically some unknown factor caused the universe to be created. Whilst it certainly may be beyond our scientific grasp to create a universe it did in fact happen and our science knowledge logically dictates that something must of caused it, whatever that something may be.

Oh i see. This doesn't mean that something created the universe though. The universe just creating itself is more likely as it doesn't rely on something existing before it to create it, which is just backstepping into the exact same question of "what created that?"

 

I am not saying that's what happened, again, we can't possibly know. But using pure logic, it's more logical.

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Nothing on this Earth was just created out of mid-air. Nothing "just happened". The Earth is so diverse and complicated that the chances of that happening again somewhere else is overwhelmingly impossible. Someone had to have created it. I mean, look around you! Do you think that the tree outside and the bird flying over JUST APPEARED? Do you believe that every beautiful animal and flower and plant just made itself? God also designed everything, not just make. He designed that plant to make it's food. It designed that animal to be fast. God designed YOU and your organs and your body. All these things couldn't have "just happened". God didn't just make the Earth and step back and let things work by themselves. He is working in each person to guide them in their lives. God is not restrained to time, either. He is the past, present, and future. IS, not was or were. Yes, it's a lot to think about. It takes a lot of faith, too. Faith in something you can't see. (Like air: you can't see it, but you know you're breathing it right?)

Man says, "Give me a sign, and then I'll believe." God says, "Believe, and then you will know."

Edited by Kimberly
Please stay on topic, thanks!

Nani mo dekinai

Chanto dekinai

Sore ga dou shita?

Bokura wa wakai'n da

Nanimo dekinai

Sugu ni dekinai

Dakara bokura ni kanou sei ga aru'n da

 

~AKB48

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Pretty safe to say gods are by definition omnipotent and omniscient (which follows from omnipotence) - if they're not that I wouldn't call them gods anyway. That gets you in all sorts of trouble regarding multiple gods and their relative power of course. Personally I view it as a *infinity multiplier to power.

 

Really there's nothing you can say about them, just like you can't talk about 'infinity' being divided by four, or four divided by zero. The answer is 'outside' logic.

 

If gods are omnipotent they are capable of hiding their existence to us. And they are also capable of, say, faking a pantheon. Or maybe a pantheon faking a single god. The possibilies are quite extensive.

 

One interesting take on this is that gods are all-powerful in the sense that they compromise the entire universe. However since the only thing that takes up the entire universe is the universe itself, the universe must be god. Sort of a stupid reasoning imo but there ya go :P.

 

I have to argue agains the 'The world is too complex to have been created by chance.' argument. Chances of any random universe developing into one as we know it, may be pretty slim (we can't really tell of course but it's a possibility). But you can never, ever make a statement about the chances of something happening based on just one outcome. Unless you got a couple of universes in your pocket which did not develop as ours, you're just not making sense.

 

You can't really argue evolution (without also arguing all evidence-based theories), as we've seen it happen, live (well over the past 300 years or so anyway). And there's no reason not to extrapolate that to some 13.7 billion years ago. Then again, we extrapolate our faces behind mirrors every day and who can tell history isn't exactly like that?

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I'm going to throw my vote in with there are no gods. There very well could be some form of deity out there, but from what we know about the universe there is little reason to believe there is one, and even less reason to believe in a specific god.

 

As for the bible, I find it curious how as technology and human understanding progress, more and more of it becomes 'metaphorical'. If there is a god, why has he never shown himself? Why would he give humans free will then demand they follow his moral code? The bible states that god created 2 sources of light; the sun and the moon. We now know that the moon only reflects light, and isn't a source of it. If the bible is really the word of god, why would he be wrong about that? I could go on and on about the contradictions in the bible, but then I would be typing all night.

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And Kimberly, while baseless drivel like "GOD IS TRUE BECAUSE HE'S IN MY HEART" is useless, intelligent discussion using logic, facts and reason can be eye opening and is the only way we'll ever find out. Assuming he doesn't come down and say hello, that is.

Edited by Kimberly
Please stay on topic, thank you!

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Before we go any further - don't call anyone a troll, not even sideways.

Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

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99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

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Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

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Russet, from what I can understand from your post, you look for specific signs of something beautiful and magically say "it's God's work" without any second thoughts. It's useless to argue with fallacious logic that can relate items without specific patterns and call them similar from the same source.

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Three months banishment to 9gag is something i would never wish upon anybody, not even my worst enemy.

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Do you think that the tree outside and the bird flying over JUST APPEARED?

I'd just like to add that no reasonable person actually believes this or argues this to be the case. But it sounds a lot more similar to your idea of God individually designing and creating things than evolution anyways.

 

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Russet, from what I can understand from your post, you look for specific signs of something beautiful and magically say "it's God's work" without any second thoughts. It's useless to argue with fallacious logic that can relate items without specific patterns and call them similar from the same source.

 

There's a tribe somewhere in the deep Amazon or jungle that was isolated from everyone else. A group of people finally reached them and were going to tell them about God, and you what? They already were worshipping Him. They understood that someone had to have created the jungle and creation around them.

Edited by Kimberly
Please stay on topic, thank you! :)

Nani mo dekinai

Chanto dekinai

Sore ga dou shita?

Bokura wa wakai'n da

Nanimo dekinai

Sugu ni dekinai

Dakara bokura ni kanou sei ga aru'n da

 

~AKB48

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If you go by the logic of "but a God wouldn't be detected/understood/analyzed by scientists because of X," which I guess makes sense, things just get unnecessarily vague. Scientific analysis is, currently on the planet Earth, our best way to prove what is false and what is true and to discover new ideas.

Edited by Kimberly
Removed quote chain and off-topic paragraphs. Please stay on topic!

 

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There's a tribe somewhere in the deep Amazon or jungle that was isolated from everyone else. A group of people finally reached them and were going to tell them about God, and you what? They already were worshipping Him. They understood that someone had to have created the jungle and creation around them.

 

Well actually, religion is often used to create answers. While science is used to find answers. The very idea of "faith" is the exact opposite of science. They can only co-exist until science disproves an "answer" religion makes up.

 

The tribe thing would actually be powerful evidence if they followed the game god, to very specific details, as Christianity, or any other religion. But to believe that there is an omniscient being that made everything is one of the most likely steps for someone ignorant of the truth to take. Humans are a curious lot and will always look for answers, it's a shame that this thirst for knowledge is impeded by con artists and attention seekers falsely claiming to have the answers.

Edited by Kimberly
Removed off-topic post quotes that were removed. Thanks!

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If you go by the logic of "but a God wouldn't be detected/understood/analyzed by scientists because of X," which I guess makes sense, things just get unnecessarily vague. Scientific analysis is, currently on the planet Earth, our best way to prove what is false and what is true and to discover new ideas.

It only gets vague because you're trying to apply logic to an area which logic itself tells you it can't be used to prove anything :P.

 

Scientific method relies on proving things false, e.g. the cycle from theory > experiment > result > either falsification or confirmation. Show any proof that falsifies the existance of gods and that's perfectly fine, but unless something major happened quite recently I don't believe there is any such proof.

Edited by Kimberly
Removed off-topic quotes, thanks!

Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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intelligent discussion using logic, facts and reason can be eye opening and is the only way we'll ever find out. Assuming he doesn't come down and say hello, that is.

 

Nothing will come of "discussion" or philosopher's answer for this "great question" would have been taken as fact years and years and years ago. The truth is no one will be satisfied until it's empirically proven. And that won't happen for the forseeable future. Until then, it is a matter of faith, not fact. And that is truly the heart of any religion, regardless of what flavor of religion you follow.

 

So, yes, it is useless. All it does is foster tension in a community that doesn't have any place in engaging in such a debate.

Edited by Kimberly
Removed unnecessary line at the end.

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Thanks for waiting guys. Topic cleaned and reopened. Have fun!

 

Reminder: Please try to remember a few things before continuing this topic.

 

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3) We want this topic to stay open! But if it continues down the same path that lead to the topic being cleaned, it will have to be locked. Please help us prevent this by staying on topic!

 

Thanks again guys and happy discussing :)

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