Why is Primal Rapier so underrated?

[Razed]

It is pretty well known that 2 handed swords and battleaxes generally dominate the melee field of dungeoneering. However, why is the rapier so underappreciated? Outside of dungeoneering, the rapier is pretty much the best all around weapon. Inside dungeoneering, this magically changes. Granted, monsters in dungeoneering have a much higher defense, but most of the monsters in dungeoneering have low defense (Shades, Giants, Demons, Brutes, Dogs). One might argue that rapiers have lower DPS but this is only sometimes true. Yes, the rapier is inaccurate compared to 2h's and terrible against crush enemies. But, Strength bonuses stack with speed. Beserker rings, prayers, pots, gaunts/b neck enhance Rapier's damage better than slower weapons. On monolith rooms, rapiers (at least to my experience), perform far better. Rapier is also the best weapon for rushing. If one binds a rapier and a CSB, a vast majority of the monsters in Daemonheim can be dispatched quickly (exception of Skeleton Mages, Giant Bats, etc).

 

Note: The focus of this topic is not to 'devalue' 2h or battleaxes, but rather to advocate the usage of rapiers in dungeoneering.

[Alg]

I'm no metagamer, but I'm pretty sure that accuracy makes a much bigger difference in Dungeoneering. It's speed doesn't really matter if it's useless on high defense monsters (Read: Most/all monsters, especially bosses). Plus, it doesn't work well with the berserker ring, since it only has one aggressive attack style (Which is uncommon for monster weaknesses), while battleaxes and 2h swords have two (Which are extremely common weaknesses). This is also what caused spears to fall out of favor.

[Jeff Delu]

Uh.. simply put baxe/2h is better on more monsters including bosses. Cba getting into detail right now.

[TheKoolKandy]

I'm no metagamer, but I'm pretty sure that accuracy makes a much bigger difference in Dungeoneering. It's speed doesn't really matter if it's useless on high defense monsters (Read: Most/all monsters, especially bosses). Plus, it doesn't work well with the berserker ring, since it only has one aggressive attack style (Which is uncommon for monster weaknesses), while battleaxes and 2h swords have two (Which are extremely common weaknesses). This is also what caused spears to fall out of favor.

Just about sums it everything. Basically all monsters that are weak to stab are also weak to slash, so that makes the other attack style near worthless especially at the loss of crush. By rushing I assume you mean c1s, because otherwise in a 5:5 large there are still high level monsters and of course the boss.

[Arthu]

Why is it underrated? Because it underperforms primal battleaxe in 9 cases out of 10. Bind both... owait, you have a limited amout of binds.

 

I realise rapiers do not suck. Neither does a shadow silk hood, yet you won't see me binding one either. I do actually understand the thought behind this, but generally, rapiers just are usually outperformed by battleaxes and 2h swords.

 

 

 

Inside dungeoneering, this magically changes.

 

There's no magic in giving monsters some actual type-dependent defence.

 

 

Beserker rings, prayers, pots, gaunts/b neck enhance Rapier's damage better than slower weapons.

 

True.

 

 

Rapier is also the best weapon for rushing.

 

True, as long as you're doing c1rushes with someone who's lvl 3 or rather close to that.

Cosmics are also the best ammo bind for solo c1rushing (and laws for teamc1s), but I wouldn't really suggest them to anyone over surgebox or hexhunter bow ammo.

 

 

Plus, it doesn't work well with the berserker ring, since it only has one aggressive attack style (Which is uncommon for monster weaknesses), while battleaxes and 2h swords have two (Which are extremely common weaknesses).

 

Fairly odd to call stab uncommon weakness and crush and slash extremely common, when it all derives from the fact you mostly crush and slash and therefore are used to using them. Plenty of things would be stabbed, should a stabbing weapon be overall best average dps. Having a stabber in team would be cool, if teams would do gd's together ...but most of us are prepared for solo pathing - you're going to kill everything that you go against, and that's where battleaxes and 2handers overdo rapiers. I believe Grimy Bunyip has a spreadsheet for this.

[homer205]

The hits/misses were collected, attack and defence rolls were determined and the rapier just isn't as good for most things. While I don't understand the calculations myself I have faith in those who collected the data and those who calculated it. While it's true that rapier benefits more from prayers/strength boosts, this doesn't really matter when the rapier isn't accurate enough to hit most things. Even as a second dps bind the rapier isn't that great and I preferred gauntlets to it. The stab weaknesses of certain monsters can generally be covered by something else (assuming a csb or hex bind) and even without these, 2 handers tend to have enough attack power to make up for it on most things.

[stonewall337]

Ever been to dag kings? Combat style REALLY matters. Same for DGing. Some monsters are REALLY stronk/weak to certain melee attacks. PR only has stab.

[Hedgehog]

Prim rapiers have the highest raw dps (by a decent margin too). However, they only have slash and stab styles, whereas battleaxes and 2hs have slash and crush. Since stab is entirely useless (the only monsters weak to stab are also fairly weak to slash, except giant bats), the rapier only has one useful style. Effectively, a rapier-er would only be able to slash low level slash-weak monsters; otherwise a baxe would have higher dps.

 

Figured I'd post how to find defense rolls:

You need 2 variables to solve for defense rolls: max attack roll and accuracy

Figure out the max att roll using the accuracy thread on the rsof

Collect hit/miss data

Solve for accuracy (acc=hits/(hits+misses))

Plug everything into the formula listed on the accuracy thread

Solve for defense roll.

The end.

[Quyneax]

Moved to Data&Research :).

 

To answer your question, it's not underrated. Given four binds, the rapier is simply never worth it.

[Razed]

Ever been to dag kings? Combat style REALLY matters. Same for DGing. Some monsters are REALLY stronk/weak to certain melee attacks. PR only has stab.

 

Rapier actually has decent slash bonuses (67).

 

I'm no metagamer, but I'm pretty sure that accuracy makes a much bigger difference in Dungeoneering. It's speed doesn't really matter if it's useless on high defense monsters (Read: Most/all monsters, especially bosses). Plus, it doesn't work well with the berserker ring, since it only has one aggressive attack style (Which is uncommon for monster weaknesses), while battleaxes and 2h swords have two (Which are extremely common weaknesses). This is also what caused spears to fall out of favor.

 

Rapier has two aggressive stances, slash and lunge.

[Hedgehog]

Listen, we have extensive data on max defense rolls and rapiers just don't cut it, sorry.

[Alg]

Rapier has two aggressive stances, slash and lunge.

...Oh right. I thought lunge was controlled.

[Quyneax]

Rapier has two aggressive stances, slash and lunge.

...Oh right. I thought lunge was controlled.

That's longswords on lunge :P.

[Sir_Squab]

In large c6 dungeons, if you use a rapier, you will run into a lot of scenarios where the rapier is completely ineffective. More strength bonuses only help when you have half decent accuracy in the first place. "Beserker rings, prayers, pots, gaunts/b neck enhance Rapier's damage better than slower weapons"

 

Where are you getting a berserker ring in DG? Prayer... yeah, ok, you can prayer a fair bit in DG but that's fairly limited. How often do you use pots in DG to clear rooms? Very, very rarely. You aren't realistically going to use gaunts/b neck until 100 DG... and if you bind them at 100 DG, you have rapier, probably a defensive item (plate, SSH) and gaunts/b neck. You're still screwed against monsters that the rapier isn't effective against. Improving a weapons strength isn't useful if the weapon isn't decently accurate to begin with. (All the experts say something about at least 50% accuracy.)

 

The rapier has a few niches in DG, but in general isn't worth binding because of the limited number of binds. There are too many scenarios where you'd be helpless with a rapier bind in DG.

[Razed]

Ring of Kinship (Berserker), fairly surprised you don't know what a berserker ring is :P

[Hedgehog]

Berserker ring generally refers to a berserker ring. I think that's why he was confused.

 

We call the one in dg a ring of kinship because that's what it's called.

[Lord Paul]

Berserker ring generally refers to a berserker ring.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Anywho, it's not underrated at all.