The Evolution of Combat: BETA discussion

[Urza285]

Should I sell my DClaws and Fury?

Sell claws.

 

Fury is just 0.2% crit under arcane stream, amulet of ranging and saradomin's whisper. It will make good for a piece of hybrid gear much like onyx ring (I) and barrows gloves.

[Drazhor]

Spotted this on the front page:

 

"The recent announcement of a launch date for Evolution of Combat certainly garnered a lot of attention! Your level of passion and dedication is obvious to see. It's you guys who make RuneScape the uniquely amazing game that it is, and your enjoyment as RuneScape players is of paramount importance to us. As such, the decision to launch the Evolution of Combat into the live game was not taken lightly.

We’ve eagerly listened to the excellent constructive feedback from those of you taking part in the Evolution of Combat Beta. During the last five months, we’ve worked hard to implement your suggested changes and improvements thanks to that feedback. This culminated last week in the beta launch of the Combat Academy and a survey to gauge the opinions of those of you who had given the system a try.

We’d like to thank the many tens of thousands of you who took the time to take part. The results below are completely as captured (the responses haven’t been weighted in any way shape or form and no negative responses were removed) and additionally we’ve included some of our own further analysis to help give you some insight into how the data stacks up. We’re naturally looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these figures too!

Question 1. What is your current combat level in the live game?

• 1-20 = 1.93% of users
  
• 21-40 = 1.67%
  
• 41-60 = 3.37%
  
• 61-100 = 23.84%
  
• 101-120 = 28.04%
  
• 121-138 = 41.14%
  

As you might expect, high-level combat players formed the largest proportion of users in the beta, with 69% of the respondents being level 101 or higher. It's terrific to see that those of you who've used RuneScape’s combat system the most over the years make up the majority of respondents providing feedback.

Question 2. Which of the following best describes your play-style?

• I focus on fighting monsters = 11.97%
  
• I focus on quests and the storyline = 8.77%
  
• I focus on non-combat skilling = 6.82%
  
• I do a bit of everything = 65.44%
  
• I focus on PvP = 4.29%
  
• I play for the social aspect and my friendships = 2.71%
  

This result surprised us a little, as we were expecting the responses to be more weighted towards combat-focused players. It's always been clear the Evolution of Combat benefits everyone - not just high-level combat players - and this is a clear indication of that fact. We're throwing every resource available at ensuring that it's right for the job.

Question 3. How much time have you spent in the beta previously?

• This is my first time = 22.12%
  
• Between five minutes and an hour = 21.40%
  
• Between one hour and four hours = 30.85%
  
• Between four hours and ten hours = 15.12%
  
• Between ten hours and twenty hours = 5.79%
  
• More than twenty hours = 4.72%
  

We knew that many of you had previously avoided the beta because they gained no direct benefit on their live account (and free time is very precious!), so we had expected that the range here would skew towards under four hours, which proved to be the case.

Question 4. After playing the Combat Academy, do you now feel you have a good understanding of the new combat system?

• Yes, I understand the system well = 34.0%
  
• I think I understand most of it = 33.03%
  
• I already understood it from playing the earlier beta = 17.43%
  
• There are parts of it I don't yet understand = 6.54%
  
• I find the whole new system confusing = 7.22%
  
• I feel it made it even more confusing! = 1.77%
  

Over 80% of users replied here that they had a decent understanding of the new system. We’ve taken your feedback on board regarding areas of the academy that could be improved, and those changes will be released with the Evolution of Combat on the 20th of November.

Question 5. Out of the following, what do you like most about the Evolution of Combat?

• Dual wielding = 31.05%
  
• The action bar, new interfaces & shortcuts = 26.12%
  
• The different abilities = 19.69%
  
• The ability to switch enemy targeting = 1.17%
  
• The adrenaline system = 5.99%
  
• The new combat animations = 15.98%
  

We believe Dual wielding is one of the coolest things in the Evolution of Combat and this was reflected in your responses. The action bar is also a particularly useful new addition, as it can be used for skilling and combat, and this was reflected in it being the next most popular feature

Question 6. Overall, what are your thoughts on the new combat system?

• I definitely prefer it to the old system = 20.31%
  
• I like it so far, but can't yet be sure = 19.14%
  
• I don't like it = 19.62%
  
• It's OK, but needs improvement = 14.31%
  
• I like both the new and the old systems = 25.97%
  
• I don't do combat, so have no opinion = 0.66%
  

This was always going to be the question that got the most attention, and understandably so. We’ve been following forum and general community sentiment very closely since the launch of the beta; as we’ve made many of the suggested changes & improvements there was an increasingly positive feeling about the update, which is backed-up by these results. Of course, we intend to keep listening to your feedback and improving the Combat System post-launch, so things can only get better from here.

Over 80% of respondents who played the latest Evolution of Combat Beta either preferred it or had a generally positive response to it. We also looked at this answer broken down by player level and found that there was little variation in response percentages, so it has support across all levels.

We're especially interested in hearing the opinion of those of you who said you weren't happy with the new system. If you haven't already, we really hope you'll give the Evolution of Combat a shot upon launch, especially to see how much it has changed since the early betas. To smooth the transition, we’ll release with a range of guides, Q&As and insider info, including how you can still use Evolution of Combat for traditional, low-intensity combat.

The launch of the Evolution of Combat is a huge step for RuneScape – thank you for your continued support and for your feedback so far, and we hope to see you on the battlefield soon!

The RuneScape Team"

[Reliable]

But... But.... 95% of all Runescape hates EOC and is going to quit?

[Saradomin_Mage]

Should I sell my DClaws and Fury?

Sell claws.

 

Fury is just 0.2% crit under arcane stream, amulet of ranging and saradomin's whisper. It will make good for a piece of hybrid gear much like onyx ring (I) and barrows gloves.

Fury is 4.2% all (with 4 prayer, nerfed), arc stream and ranging amulet are 4.9% for magic/ranged, and whisper is 4.4% for melee (with 5 prayer).

[Estoc]

Turm is a 15% boost to strength and probably attack and defense too.

 

Not sure what crits do.

 

I'm going to assume that this boosts just the level which translates into ~15 extra damage at 99 and is currently completely useless?

[Estoc]

 

Spotted this on the front page:

 

"The recent announcement of a launch date for Evolution of Combat certainly garnered a lot of attention! Your level of passion and dedication is obvious to see. It's you guys who make RuneScape the uniquely amazing game that it is, and your enjoyment as RuneScape players is of paramount importance to us. As such, the decision to launch the Evolution of Combat into the live game was not taken lightly.

 

We’ve eagerly listened to the excellent constructive feedback from those of you taking part in the Evolution of Combat Beta. During the last five months, we’ve worked hard to implement your suggested changes and improvements thanks to that feedback. This culminated last week in the beta launch of the Combat Academy and a survey to gauge the opinions of those of you who had given the system a try.

We’d like to thank the many tens of thousands of you who took the time to take part. The results below are completely as captured (the responses haven’t been weighted in any way shape or form and no negative responses were removed) and additionally we’ve included some of our own further analysis to help give you some insight into how the data stacks up. We’re naturally looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these figures too!

Question 1. What is your current combat level in the live game?

• 1-20 = 1.93% of users
   
  
• 21-40 = 1.67%
   
  
• 41-60 = 3.37%
   
  
• 61-100 = 23.84%
   
  
• 101-120 = 28.04%
   
  
• 121-138 = 41.14%
  

As you might expect, high-level combat players formed the largest proportion of users in the beta, with 69% of the respondents being level 101 or higher. It's terrific to see that those of you who've used RuneScape’s combat system the most over the years make up the majority of respondents providing feedback.

Question 2. Which of the following best describes your play-style?

• I focus on fighting monsters = 11.97%
   
  
• I focus on quests and the storyline = 8.77%
   
  
• I focus on non-combat skilling = 6.82%
   
  
• I do a bit of everything = 65.44%
   
  
• I focus on PvP = 4.29%
   
  
• I play for the social aspect and my friendships = 2.71%
  

This result surprised us a little, as we were expecting the responses to be more weighted towards combat-focused players. It's always been clear the Evolution of Combat benefits everyone - not just high-level combat players - and this is a clear indication of that fact. We're throwing every resource available at ensuring that it's right for the job.

Question 3. How much time have you spent in the beta previously?

• This is my first time = 22.12%
   
  
• Between five minutes and an hour = 21.40%
   
  
• Between one hour and four hours = 30.85%
   
  
• Between four hours and ten hours = 15.12%
   
  
• Between ten hours and twenty hours = 5.79%
   
  
• More than twenty hours = 4.72%
  

We knew that many of you had previously avoided the beta because they gained no direct benefit on their live account (and free time is very precious!), so we had expected that the range here would skew towards under four hours, which proved to be the case.

Question 4. After playing the Combat Academy, do you now feel you have a good understanding of the new combat system?

• Yes, I understand the system well = 34.0%
   
  
• I think I understand most of it = 33.03%
   
  
• I already understood it from playing the earlier beta = 17.43%
   
  
• There are parts of it I don't yet understand = 6.54%
   
  
• I find the whole new system confusing = 7.22%
   
  
• I feel it made it even more confusing! = 1.77%
  

Over 80% of users replied here that they had a decent understanding of the new system. We’ve taken your feedback on board regarding areas of the academy that could be improved, and those changes will be released with the Evolution of Combat on the 20th of November.

Question 5. Out of the following, what do you like most about the Evolution of Combat?

• Dual wielding = 31.05%
   
  
• The action bar, new interfaces & shortcuts = 26.12%
   
  
• The different abilities = 19.69%
   
  
• The ability to switch enemy targeting = 1.17%
   
  
• The adrenaline system = 5.99%
   
  
• The new combat animations = 15.98%
  

We believe Dual wielding is one of the coolest things in the Evolution of Combat and this was reflected in your responses. The action bar is also a particularly useful new addition, as it can be used for skilling and combat, and this was reflected in it being the next most popular feature

Question 6. Overall, what are your thoughts on the new combat system?

• I definitely prefer it to the old system = 20.31%
   
  
• I like it so far, but can't yet be sure = 19.14%
   
  
• I don't like it = 19.62%
   
  
• It's OK, but needs improvement = 14.31%
   
  
• I like both the new and the old systems = 25.97%
   
  
• I don't do combat, so have no opinion = 0.66%
  

This was always going to be the question that got the most attention, and understandably so. We’ve been following forum and general community sentiment very closely since the launch of the beta; as we’ve made many of the suggested changes & improvements there was an increasingly positive feeling about the update, which is backed-up by these results. Of course, we intend to keep listening to your feedback and improving the Combat System post-launch, so things can only get better from here.

Over 80% of respondents who played the latest Evolution of Combat Beta either preferred it or had a generally positive response to it. We also looked at this answer broken down by player level and found that there was little variation in response percentages, so it has support across all levels.

We're especially interested in hearing the opinion of those of you who said you weren't happy with the new system. If you haven't already, we really hope you'll give the Evolution of Combat a shot upon launch, especially to see how much it has changed since the early betas. To smooth the transition, we’ll release with a range of guides, Q&As and insider info, including how you can still use Evolution of Combat for traditional, low-intensity combat.

The launch of the Evolution of Combat is a huge step for RuneScape – thank you for your continued support and for your feedback so far, and we hope to see you on the battlefield soon!

The RuneScape Team"

 

 

 

 

Maybe now people will shut the hell up about a poll. Wait, what am I saying, they will simply claim it was skewed and demand another one until it goes their way.

[Hedgehog]

Turm is a 15% boost to strength and probably attack and defense too.

 

Not sure what crits do.

 

I'm going to assume that this boosts just the level which translates into ~15 extra damage at 99 and is currently completely useless?

Yes.

[brunokiller]

Only 20% think it's an improvement over live combat. What is this major support?

[strilmus]

well, they do technically have majority support for the update considering how the sections fall, and it's not like it's even that close of a vote

 

(as in, only 20% outright oppose the update and the others aren't going to ragequit)

 

it isn't as much of a sham as the wilderness "poll"

[Sir_Squab]

80% of people support it because only 20% of people explicitly say they dislike it.

 

You could easily turn it around to only 20% of players want it to come out now, 45% are undecided, 15% think it needs improvement and 20% don't like it. Other then rounding a few of the percentages, I think this view is just as valid as theirs.

 

For the record, there's a difference between not rage quitting over it and supporting the update. Also, most players on this thread don't seem to be against the EoC as a whole, they just think it needs more work before it comes out.

[Quyneax]

Only 6% of the people would name the adrenaline system as their favourite part. I think that shows it's a good deal less popular than the rest of the update. Maybe a good reason to re-examine it.

[Aiel]

Only 6% of the people would name the adrenaline system as their favourite part. I think that shows it's a good deal less popular than the rest of the update. Maybe a good reason to re-examine it.

but 80% of the people support the update they MUST like it :roll:

[Ginger_Warrior]

Only 6% of the people would name the adrenaline system as their favourite part. I think that shows it's a good deal less popular than the rest of the update. Maybe a good reason to re-examine it.

but 80% of the people support the update they MUST like it :roll:

They liked it across all combat levels too, including lower levels, despite this group forming a tiny minority of the respondents (only 6% were below level 60).

 

It's fun picking holes in bad science, isn't it?

[strilmus]

well, not everybody loves it, and not everybody hates it

 

i think the same could be said of the older system

 

where do we go from here

[Ginger_Warrior]

well, not everybody loves it, and not everybody hates it

 

i think the same could be said of the older system

 

where do we go from here

Well, for us nowhere, but it's not meant to be for our benefit. It's meant to be a method for Jagex to properly gather information on how its customers feel about the changes they're making to the product, and analyze from that information if they're doing things right. The rigor of these questions, and the half-baked conclusions they seem to have drawn from them (Question 2's probably the best example of the latter) mean that, really, they can't deduce anything useful from this, and so we have to ask ourselves about the point of this exercise.

 

This survey holds barely any weight when viewed objectively and critically. One can only conclude they did this to endorse their own position, and questions like "What part did you like best?" which is a loaded question and one that is clearly open to selective bias, only reinforce that impression.

[Alg]

It's fun picking holes in bad science, isn't it?

Don't talk about bad science that way. It doesn't deserve to be compared to this poll.

[strilmus]

i'm not so sure that jagex draws the same conclusions publicly and internally

[Ginger_Warrior]

If that were true, they'd postpone this update.

[Sy_Accursed]

I'm wondering if, in an attempt at a blaze of glory pr move, theres 1 massive EoC update they have decided to not release to the beta that we will only see when it goes live that addresses some of the issues still commonly raised.

 

Probably just optimistic thinking, but we can hope.

[muggiwhplar]

I'm wondering if, in an attempt at a blaze of glory pr move, theres 1 massive EoC update they have decided to not release to the beta that we will only see when it goes live that addresses some of the issues still commonly raised.

 

Probably just optimistic thinking, but we can hope.

 

That'd be funny if the massive EoC update was removal of the adrenaline system :D

 

But realistically, it'll probably just be the nerfing of the drop-x.

[meili]

Posted this in the RSOF Feedback thread:

 

I genuinely fail to understand why some things are missing or seem buggy in EOC.

 

Auto-retaliate doesn't work - I went to a place with aggresive spawn. Auto-retal was on. I successful attacked one monster but after I killed it my char just stood there doing nothing even though it was being attacked. What's up with that?

 

Targeting the wrong monster - so in the aggressive place (edge dungeon), after I killed the one monster and my char just stood there not doing anything, I tried clicking on the abilites (hotkey 1,2,3, etc. ) and I got an error message saying "you are already fighting someone else." Um, nope my char was not fighting it was just standing there. The message seems to say that my char was in combat but when I tried to use the abilities it was targeted on the wrong mob. How did that happen when I didn't manually click on any one?

 

Cannot see which enemy is attacking - so okay, since I got that message I tried to click on the monster that I saw attacking me. Alas, there were two/three of them in the same square so I had to right click and try attacking each one by one to find the correct enemy.

 

~ in the current combat system my char is very intelligent, if someone attacks, my char attacks back with perfect accuracy on auto-retaliate. EOC seems to have unintelligent chars that don't know what to do

 

No macros - in every other game of of this type with abilities there is always a "macro" or chain command where you can set it to do several abilities/spells/actions. For example, you shouldn't have to click 1 10 times, then 2 once every single time. You should be able to create a macro where when you click on it will do several abilities at the same time. I don't mean they will happen at the same time I mean in the same way that when you cook, you only click once and it cooks everything in your inventory. Combat should have a similar option.

~ needless to say I was one of the 20% that dislike it but I think we all pretty much knew that Jagex was going through with this no matter what we said.

[Randox]

I would argue that time spent in beta is fairly important, since even if you understand the system, you need to spend some time trying it out in a whole bunch of scenarios, becuase ideally your trying to simulate what it would feel like to actually play a game with this configuration. The majority of players do not have this kind of time logged to make a qualified judgement on whether they would enjoy this update as the main game or not. What you want to see if the last question, but only with answers from the people who answered at least 10 hours in the game (really, more than 20). If I had to hazard a guess, most of the people clearly for or against probably come from the first time and no time categories, because this will be totally new to them and lead strong opinions in one direction or the other. People who spend more time will be more likely to see the potential in the system, and would be more likely to go for the needs more time, or maybe they like both, because each system has it's ups and downs.

 

My point is that the poll doesn't mean anything because most of the people voting haven't spent the time required to make a qualified judgement on how they would enjoy this as the actual game (at least 60% don't have that much time).

[Platinum_Myr]

Agreed.

 

And a lot of that was "needs improvement" anyways.. they shouldn't release it early!!!

[brunokiller]

 

Mod Pi

Jagex Mod

09-Nov-2012 17:41:02

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Ello, some more responses for your enjoyment :P

 

Barrows vs GWD:

You have a point with the repair cost of barrows. Given these repair costs are 8 years old and the amount of gold that has come into the game over time we should look into increasing the repair cost to keep the two sets competitive. I will bring this up.

 

Dom Gloves:

We are making Dom gloves actual gloves again. They will be level 80 gloves with a passive effect so as to make them a bit different to the Nex gloves.

 

5. FIX AUTOATTACKS

This is actually a bug with magic, your ability attacks should delay your auto-attacks. I'll look into fixing this for you now.

 

6. Fix channels/combo abilities

Good find, i'll fix this for you.

 

7. God Amulets

Okay, looking at theses, yes indeed the fury will stay the best brid amulet. We'd like to keep the archane stream at it's current tier as that amount of crit matches chaotic tier. We will however lower the ranging amulet to tier 65 and keep the GWD ammulets at level 80.

 

8. Claws

Yea sure, i'll add crit to the lower level claws, sounds good.

 

9. Offhands

We'll look at making you offhand blisterwood stakes. Any more that you think we're missing?

 

11. Korasi's

Hmm, we have to be careful not to devalue 85 slayer any more than time already has. I sure you can agree that 85 slayer takes more time and investment than completing the void knight series of quests. How does lowering its stats slightly below a whip but adding crit sound?

 

14. Change momentum to a charge-up-then-stays-that-way Toggle the way Single-Way-Wildy does.

I don't feel that you need to spam to use it to relax. If you want to relax let your auto-attacks build adrenaline and then activate momentum.

 

15. Reduce the cooldown on more magic and ranged BASICS.

Okay, good point. We'll reduce the cool down on some of these and make sure you guys have a couple of rotations available to you.

 

16. Increase the Cooldown on Reflect

Sounds like a plan, we'll up this to 40 seconds for you.

 

18. Magic abilities with a staff/DW

We are aware of this and you'll see dual wielding and 2h abilities for mage in future.

 

19. Magic abilities, require magic weapon

Currently in the live game you can cast magic witout a weapon equipped, this is why magic can be cast without one. Casting without a magic weapon equipeed greatly reduces your accuracy. With reguard to magic abilities themselves, I shall bring this up with the team.

 

20. Quake remove the 90% or more clause

I think this is a useful clause, it basically says you can only lower your opponents defence by 5% if they are 90%+ of their base defence. Having this on an AoE is pretty good we thought, imagine the castle wars respawn room for instance, you just lowered the defence of a tonne of people!

 

21. Pulverize

We have removed hitting a set amount from a lot of abilities as we and other players felt that it made the system too predictable and removed some of the excitement of getting a big hit. The debuff it applies to your opponent it pretty awesome so we cannot have it rival overpower for damage. We'll look at adding more fixed damage for you.

 

22. Gear penalties on CORRECT gear

Indeed this shouldn't be happening. We realise that these numbers and their meaning still need claification so we are working on improving that part of the stats interface. Could you provide me with the armour involved in the example above and i'll investigate what is happening and clarify if it is a bug or just our interface being confusing.

 

23. Gear penalties on WRONG gear

Okay after investigating this, it appears the armour nerf isn't getting applied correctly in PvP. This is being fixed and will be hotfixed at some point next week.

 

24. Obtainment of new armor/alchemy

Yes we have been hearing this a lot, we will do a sweep and balacing things in their tier for you.

 

25. Bosses

We already have our QA team doing another sweep of bosses and other key pieces of content before release.

(I'll fix the KBD for you though).

 

27. Dungeoneering rewards

Zealots: prayer now works on main hand strength not levels so this boost is bigger than you may think.

 

Anti-Poison totem - sounds reasonable, i'll make it classless

 

Vigour:

The ring of vigour will not lower your defence. Since it is a generic item it evens out your bias on the combat triangle ever so slightly. This means that your defences are skewed more towards the middle, this happens with all generic items.

[Cheefoo]

So barrows is going to cost more to repair? [bleep]. Repair costs as a whole are pretty pointless, if you ask me. Maybe if they required special resources to repair (mining and smithing update please) it would be an interesting mechanic, but if it's just taking pure cash, it's pretty lame.