The Evolution of Combat: BETA discussion

[Sy_Accursed]

Honestly, GW is harder then barrows, so the GW rewards should be better then barrows. So just make them a tier higher.

 

Besides, it'll be virtually impossible to balance the recharge costs right - one of them will end up being clearly superior. They seem to want to make GW the better option. So why not just give it higher effing stats? And just leave barrows as an inferior, affordable highish level armour.

 

Thia.

I literally have no idea why they decide to lower it.

It worked nicely as lvl 75 tier that was better than barrows and worse than Nex gear and all they've done is lower it and go hmm yeah it's not balance we need to work on that.

[homer205]

I think the fact that would make it most amusing if it weren't screwing with the game would be that they had it right to start with and then changed it.

[Saradomin_Mage]

They wanted to keep Nex armour significantly better than GWD, and with a major reduction on armour LP values they must have felt the 5 level difference between Nex and GWD was too small, so they relegated to level 70 (as it was on Beta's launch).

 

I understand the need to keep Nex armour much better due the difficulty jump from GWD to Nex, but surely they could have left GWD at 72 or 73 instead of 70.

[Sy_Accursed]

They wanted to keep Nex armour significantly better than GWD, and with a major reduction on armour LP values they must have felt the 5 level difference between Nex and GWD was too small, so they relegated to level 70 (as it was on Beta's launch).

 

I understand the need to keep Nex armour much better due the difficulty jump from GWD to Nex, but surely they could have left GWD at 72 or 73 instead of 70.

 

But the difficulty jump from Barrows > GWD is probably equal to if not bigger than the jump from GWD > Nex so surely it would make sense to of upped Nex gear slightly to say 85 or so and then worry about plugging the gap via something semi-difficult to achieve eg Kalphite king or a player owned port feature (since these are apparently bringing new high end gear anyway)

[Saradomin_Mage]

They wanted to keep Nex armour significantly better than GWD, and with a major reduction on armour LP values they must have felt the 5 level difference between Nex and GWD was too small, so they relegated to level 70 (as it was on Beta's launch).

 

I understand the need to keep Nex armour much better due the difficulty jump from GWD to Nex, but surely they could have left GWD at 72 or 73 instead of 70.

 

But the difficulty jump from Barrows > GWD is probably equal to if not bigger than the jump from GWD > Nex so surely it would make sense to of upped Nex gear slightly to say 85 or so and then worry about plugging the gap via something semi-difficult to achieve eg Kalphite king or a player owned port feature (since these are apparently bringing new high end gear anyway)

I think Player Owned Ports (and Hybrid gear, currently) fill the gap of post-80 gear, so they wouldn't raise Nex armour beyond 80.

 

GWD was called "Team Barrows" the day it was released, I honestly don't think it's that much harder than Barrows when you compare guy with level 70 stats doing barrows versus a bunch of the same killing Graardor. editing this, just realised I didn't get my intended point across.

 

In terms of requirements, I can quite confidently say that the jump from GWD to Nex would definitely be far, far greater than that of Barrows to GWD.

 

For Barrows, you probably needed around level 70 magic/ranged to be able to take it on somewhat efficiently, maging everything except Ahrim (slayer dart, Karil's crossbow?). In terms of equipment you're talking about things like black dragonhide/mystic/that kind of cheap junk, maybe Ahrim's if you wanted to be extravagant. Of course you can bulldoze Barrows with Subjugation/SoA etc now, but that's not the point.

 

GWD bosses were a step up, and in a team of maybe 4 or so (GWD was designed as a group encounter, not a solo challenge), you could probably get comfortable trips with 80-90 melees (or ranged for Kree), and this is even without beasts of burden. In terms of gear whips and barrows would sit you comfortably through your group trips, even without extreme potions (you'd need supers though). If you wanted to do it as a solo encounter now (thanks to power creep) you'd need a chaotic (singular), maybe a piece of Nex gear (probably not), but definitely unicorn/yak and overloads.

 

Nex demands a massive jump compared to GWD, and to get by in a 4 man team, you'd need maxed melees/ranged (and magic for the sake of defence), Rigour from Dungeoneering, chaotics, Pernix, and probably a Sigil shield or EEKS, not to mention overloads and a yak. The level jump is absolutely massive and can't be compared to the jump from Barrows to GWD at all.

[Urza285]

Gwyn add me in game.

 

On that note it makes me think that jagex wants to put in some armour from PoP into the 75 slot so the lower end players don't feel like they've been handed an update not quite outside their realm of attention. Besides obtaining the gear from dominion tower is still quite hard.

 

So in a way you get...

 

Barrows for low end pvm, 70 stats gear.

God wars dungeon for high end pvm, 70 stats gear.

Player owned ports for 75 gear.

Dominion tower/dungeoneering for low end, 80 stats gear.

Ancient prison/corporal beast for high end, 80 stats gear.

Player owned ports for everything else above 80 stats

 

Makes some sense, but jagex has always had a twisted view on linear progression changes.

[Equenox]

I don't see a reason why Barrow's can't join 3rd Age in the level 65 tier. That was both it and GWD armours still have a use, while maintaining a sizeable improvement from GWD -> Nex gears.

 

I also wouldn't mind seeing some melee and ranged Ganodermic-equivelent armours to fill the level 75 tier either, giving good stats at the cost of a short duration, and high recharge cost.

[kamil1210]

Why do you trying to put POP into armour tier system? Does jagex told about adding new endgame gear with pop? Does jagex told anything what pop will be about? ...

[Urza285]

Why do you trying to put POP into armour tier system? Does jagex told about adding new endgame gear with pop? Does jagex told anything what pop will be about? ...

Matter of fact they did. They said new high end armours would come from it.

[Alg]

They wanted to keep Nex armour significantly better than GWD, and with a major reduction on armour LP values they must have felt the 5 level difference between Nex and GWD was too small, so they relegated to level 70 (as it was on Beta's launch).

 

I understand the need to keep Nex armour much better due the difficulty jump from GWD to Nex, but surely they could have left GWD at 72 or 73 instead of 70.

It seems like GWD gear's main benefit is that it has the best stats for something that doesn't degrade, so they could also have kept it with its level 75 stats and given Nex gear some additional effects similar to the barrows sets.

 

Along the lines of something I think you said when they lowered the stats on GWD: The solution everyone wanted wasn't to nerf GWD armor, it was to buff Nex armor.

 

...And why do I get the feeling that PoP is going to be a money sink exclusively for all of the billionaires out there? :sad:

[Urza285]

They wanted to keep Nex armour significantly better than GWD, and with a major reduction on armour LP values they must have felt the 5 level difference between Nex and GWD was too small, so they relegated to level 70 (as it was on Beta's launch).

 

I understand the need to keep Nex armour much better due the difficulty jump from GWD to Nex, but surely they could have left GWD at 72 or 73 instead of 70.

It seems like GWD gear's main benefit is that it has the best stats for something that doesn't degrade, so they could also have kept it with its level 75 stats and given Nex gear some additional effects similar to the barrows sets.

 

Along the lines of something I think you said when they lowered the stats on GWD: The solution everyone wanted wasn't to nerf GWD armor, it was to buff Nex armor.

 

...And why do I get the feeling that PoP is going to be a money sink exclusively for all of the billionaires out there? :sad:

I'm fairly certain it will be and thats why i've been saving.

 

And I'm fairly certain it wont be necessarily for the billionaires. I have a feeling this will be a stepping stone up for those wanting to do nex, but not have the most elite gear.

[meili]

To my mind these armor problems are trivial. At the end of the day you can change your equips. The more alarming thing is auto-attacks not working and having to button mash every few seconds - you can't buy changes to that in the GE. I need to test it more but I think my char was also targeting the wrong mobs when in an aggressive area. That sort of thing needs to be fixed pronto.

 

A few people have asked for shorter cooldowns when they *meant* fewer button presses.

 

Maybe...

 

Really wish you could queue the next active ability to use when it becomes available. Hate being forced to button mash to maximize.

 

I know, right?

[GarryGarry]

they gonna charge more to fix barrows like that gonna do anything lol

[Blutters]

What are the roles of dual wielding/2h weapon/1h and shield intended to be? Do the roles change depending on the triangle?

I assumed dual wielding is better against 2h weapons, 2h weapons are better against shields, and shields are better against dual wielding of the same style.

[The Floating Pen]

Honestly, I'd rather see Evolution of Combat released soon. Yes, it has many problems, which is exactly why it needs to be released... it needs to have 100% of the attention focused on it. The team needs to stop designing updates twice, they can't afford to waste programming time when they could be fixing these key Evolution of Combat issues.

 

For the first 2 months, Evolution of Combat will suck badly. Still, I can live through 2 months and I'm sure many others will too. After that, it can only be considered "progress"... the sooner we really start cranking out the Evolution of Combat, the faster it will be ready and awesome.

[RSBDavid]

I, as well, look forward to the EoC. I find it way easier to kill things. In exchange for spending the time on learning abilities, the 35% bonus damage rate you get over normal game play/momentum is great!.

[decebal]

Does anyone know of a way to take out a mage using Asphyxiate? My three deaths so far have all been because a mage brought me from half health to zero before I could eat.

 

Also, I hate it when Overpower misses. And sucking at hybriding.

[Alg]

Does anyone know of a way to take out a mage using Asphyxiate? My three deaths so far have all been because a mage brought me from half health to zero before I could eat.

Does freedom work? If not, there's really no defense against it.

 

Asphyxiate in general is pretty game breaking.

[decebal]

Does anyone know of a way to take out a mage using Asphyxiate? My three deaths so far have all been because a mage brought me from half health to zero before I could eat.

Does freedom work? If not, there's really no defense against it.

 

Asphyxiate in general is pretty game breaking.

Each hit from asphyxiate counts as a separate stun, I believe. Anticipation prevents stuns for 10, but I'm not sure if it can be used while stunned. If not, then the only way to prevent an asphyxiate is to pop Anticipation the moment the enemy mage hits 50% adrenaline.

 

On a different note, I can't believe people still bother calling others "safer" for eating to full. You are always one stun away from getting killed. Asphyxiate>stun>torture>omnipower and you're dead.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Single-Way Wilderness looks to be a bit buggy. Enemy monsters can bypass SWW for a couple of seconds. The last one that attacks you then becomes your single-way target.

[Equenox]

Some information from Mod Pi from 299-300-421-64077367 (limited access forum, I'm afraid):

 

Ello,

I'm performing a major buff to prayer and potions today. You probably wont see it until full release but we haven't forgotten it don't worry!

 

As for the rest, I shall be back and shall address each part in turn once I'm done making Turm + OVL an epic combo again

 

Pi

 

 

Hello,

I've read through them all and I am going to investigate quite a lot of them tomorrow for you and now my monitor looks like a flower due to post it notes .

 

For now here are the ones I can comment on.

 

1. Sara Sword

Okay, i've looked at this and i've made this a crushing weapon with the same damage and accuracy as the godswords. It doesn't have a passive effect however. Zammy spear is a stabbing weapon with these stats too so this will give you access to crush/stab and slash at this tier.

 

2. Make visible boosts scale.

The potions do scale, the amount of levels they boost you by scales with your level. It is a base + %ge system. What I've done today will make overstatting a bit more desirable

 

3. Prayer

3 times as strong eh?? *looks at new buff* ...yea..... I think I can do that

 

8. Claws

Dragon claws should have crit on them, if they do not then it is a bug and I will look into it.

 

12. GWD armor

 

Isn't having them as the same defence as barrows but non-degradable enough? Barrows is better but you pay upkeep for what you get.

 

17. Berserker

I have fixed this today.

 

26. Poison Sucks

I've buffed this recently, 10-15%.....yea I think I have that one covered too.

 

 

Ello, some more responses for your enjoyment

 

Barrows vs GWD:

You have a point with the repair cost of barrows. Given these repair costs are 8 years old and the amount of gold that has come into the game over time we should look into increasing the repair cost to keep the two sets competitive. I will bring this up.

 

Dom Gloves:

We are making Dom gloves actual gloves again. They will be level 80 gloves with a passive effect so as to make them a bit different to the Nex gloves.

 

5. FIX AUTOATTACKS

This is actually a bug with magic, your ability attacks should delay your auto-attacks. I'll look into fixing this for you now.

 

6. Fix channels/combo abilities

Good find, i'll fix this for you.

 

7. God Amulets

Okay, looking at theses, yes indeed the fury will stay the best brid amulet. We'd like to keep the archane stream at it's current tier as that amount of crit matches chaotic tier. We will however lower the ranging amulet to tier 65 and keep the GWD ammulets at level 80.

 

8. Claws

Yea sure, i'll add crit to the lower level claws, sounds good.

 

9. Offhands

We'll look at making you offhand blisterwood stakes. Any more that you think we're missing?

 

11. Korasi's

Hmm, we have to be careful not to devalue 85 slayer any more than time already has. I sure you can agree that 85 slayer takes more time and investment than completing the void knight series of quests. How does lowering its stats slightly below a whip but adding crit sound?

 

14. Change momentum to a charge-up-then-stays-that-way Toggle the way Single-Way-Wildy does.

I don't feel that you need to spam to use it to relax. If you want to relax let your auto-attacks build adrenaline and then activate momentum.

 

15. Reduce the cooldown on more magic and ranged BASICS.

Okay, good point. We'll reduce the cool down on some of these and make sure you guys have a couple of rotations available to you.

 

16. Increase the Cooldown on Reflect

Sounds like a plan, we'll up this to 40 seconds for you.

 

18. Magic abilities with a staff/DW

We are aware of this and you'll see dual wielding and 2h abilities for mage in future.

 

19. Magic abilities, require magic weapon

Currently in the live game you can cast magic witout a weapon equipped, this is why magic can be cast without one. Casting without a magic weapon equipeed greatly reduces your accuracy. With reguard to magic abilities themselves, I shall bring this up with the team.

 

20. Quake remove the 90% or more clause

I think this is a useful clause, it basically says you can only lower your opponents defence by 5% if they are 90%+ of their base defence. Having this on an AoE is pretty good we thought, imagine the castle wars respawn room for instance, you just lowered the defence of a tonne of people!

 

21. Pulverize

We have removed hitting a set amount from a lot of abilities as we and other players felt that it made the system too predictable and removed some of the excitement of getting a big hit. The debuff it applies to your opponent it pretty awesome so we cannot have it rival overpower for damage. We'll look at adding more fixed damage for you.

 

22. Gear penalties on CORRECT gear

Indeed this shouldn't be happening. We realise that these numbers and their meaning still need claification so we are working on improving that part of the stats interface. Could you provide me with the armour involved in the example above and i'll investigate what is happening and clarify if it is a bug or just our interface being confusing.

 

23. Gear penalties on WRONG gear

Okay after investigating this, it appears the armour nerf isn't getting applied correctly in PvP. This is being fixed and will be hotfixed at some point next week.

 

24. Obtainment of new armor/alchemy

Yes we have been hearing this a lot, we will do a sweep and balacing things in their tier for you.

 

25. Bosses

We already have our QA team doing another sweep of bosses and other key pieces of content before release.

(I'll fix the KBD for you though).

 

27. Dungeoneering rewards

Zealots: prayer now works on main hand strength not levels so this boost is bigger than you may think.

 

Anti-Poison totem - sounds reasonable, i'll make it classless

 

Vigour:

The ring of vigour will not lower your defence. Since it is a generic item it evens out your bias on the combat triangle ever so slightly. This means that your defences are skewed more towards the middle, this happens with all generic items.

[MotherBrainII]

What's that ranged ability that just instantly kills you no matter what?

 

I keep having it used against me in the Wild by people using 2h bows (so no, it's not Unload) and generally magic armour. My character is stunned, covered in explosions, and I take rapid hits of 900-1100 that deplete my entire health bar before I can do anything even if I'm wearing full Nex armour and had eaten to full.

[Demoli]

Its probably a combo of explosive shot and Dead shot.

 

I still don't like ranged in beta, even though karils+ dual ccb looks pretty nifty. Magic is the most fun so far.

[Cheefoo]

I really don't get how criticals etc. work. For some reason, when I was testing dharok set, I was hitting exactly 1400 crits quite a few times. Then I also hit exactly 3500 with auto attacks many times, so I don't think it's just criticals that are acting fishy.

 

I REALLY hope Jagex gives us more info on how this crap works. I'd especially like to see how they class the different wielding styles, and what they're supposed to be used for. Is dual wielding for maximum DPS? Is twohanded for high accuracy? Or AoE? Shields for low DPS but high survivability? Is there really any difference between dual wield magic and staff magic if they both have the same abilities? Is damage capped at 6500 on everything? Why can't I hold all these limes? How many licks does it take to get to [REDACTED]?

[Saradomin_Mage]

Is dual wielding for maximum DPS? Is twohanded for high accuracy? Or AoE? Shields for low DPS but high survivability? Is there really any difference between dual wield magic and staff magic if they both have the same abilities? Is damage capped at 6500 on everything? Why can't I hold all these limes? How many licks does it take to get to [REDACTED]?

Dual wield and 2H are supposed to have the same DPS - dual wield gets 150% 1h weapon damage over 4 ticks while 2h gets 225% 1h weapon damage over 6 ticks (intended figures - actual figures vary slightly more towards 2h having higher DPS). Dual wield gets less overkill loss, if you want to think about it that way. Accuracy is same across a tier.

 

2H thresholds are generally geared towards AoE while dual wield tends to be multihits.

[Sy_Accursed]

I'd have to say the 3 wield styles are pretty well defined:

 

1) 1h wep + shield = tank. Reasonable damage output with extra def. Good for monsters who hit hard to slightly relaxed play.

2) Dual wield = Speed kills. Hits much faster than any other wield style, but sacrifices defence. Good for monsters with low def that you can slaughter fast.

3) 2h = 'Berserker' kind class. Slow attacks but has raw power. Good for monsters with quite high def that you wanna smash through.

 

Obviously in time we'll learn more about what works where exactly, but these cover the basic premise of each and roughly where they ought to work bestand obviously dual and 2h are kinda 2 sides of the same coin.