The Evolution of Combat: BETA discussion

[Alg]

The issue is he said runescape is like other MMO's.

And that's true, to a degree.

 

A bigger issue is whether you can find any MMO that doesn't draw elements from either other MMOs or other role-playing games. Didn't the genre evolve from electronic versions of pen-and-paper adventure/roleplaying games?

[Sylpheed]

I do think that there's a purpose to saying things "RS is dying", or "I am going to quit". The first comment is not objectively true, of course. RS is still alive and may end up experiencing a surge of popularity. But it's definitely true in the subjective sense, RS as they know it and perceive it, is dying for them. As for the latter comment, that's been here since the dawn of RS, and it's a legitimate form of protest, it states, quite clearly to Jagex: "this update is unacceptable to me in its entirety, I don't want a tweak or two, here and there, I reject the entire premise itself, and I will quit if you pursue this". For such people, offering "constructive criticism" is meaningless, because it's not that they want the beta to be different, it's that they don't want a beta at all. If enough people felt as they did, Jagex would be forced to change their policy. It's basically a boycott, and while I don't share any of these sentiments myself, there's nothing wrong with them.

 

Except there is something wrong with it. Obviously, everyone is allowed to not like the EoC if they so please, I'm not going to judge someone for not liking something that I do and I would actually like to converse with them to see their point of view.

 

But this is where the problem begins;

 

Making statements like you described above hold absolutely no discussion value whatsoever and it has become tiresome seeing the same handful of statements without any attempt to explain WHY they don't like it.

 

if they don't offer examples of why or what they dont like because it fundamentally destroys the game for them, what do they achieve by posting such drivel?

 

No, it isn't a statement to Jagex because they disregard anything that isn't constructive and want to focus on modernising the game to keep it alive. I would rather a minority group of players quit and have the game survive into the future than see the game crumble in a years time because they decided to keep the old system.

 

That isn't selfish, it's the greater good. If people don't or can't understand why this is being done then yes, they are ignorant.

 

I sympathise with such players too, the combat system IS being heavily changed, but there is still no point in posting comments that contribute nothing but a statement that nobody cares about.

 

[Urza285]

The issue is he said runescape is like other MMO's.

And that's true, to a degree.

 

A bigger issue is whether you can find any MMO that doesn't draw elements from either other MMOs or other role-playing games. Didn't the genre evolve from electronic versions of pen-and-paper adventure/roleplaying games?

Thats an entirely different battle.

[Alg]

Thats an entirely different battle.

It's just my way of suggesting that this battle is pointless. :razz:

 

It doesn't really matter if they're using a mechanic that's present in virtually every other role-playing game. There's a good reason that it's so widespread.

 

The real issue is that it's such a far step away from what the game was before. If you make a drastic change like that, you shouldn't be surprised when your existing playerbase doesn't approve. It's a hugely different direction than the one we've been going in for something like eleven years now. Saying that players shouldn't complain is like saying that the game shouldn't make the change to stay competitive.

[Yoko Kurama]

Making statements like you described above hold absolutely no discussion value whatsoever and it has become tiresome seeing the same handful of statements without any attempt to explain WHY they don't like it.

 

I think they do serve some discussion value; they register dissatisfaction with the beta at this stage. If none of those people posted, Jagex and other players might get the false impression that more people are actually okay with the beta now.

 

 

if they don't offer examples of why or what they dont like because it fundamentally destroys the game for them, what do they achieve by posting such drivel?

 

Their reasons are quite clear: they prefer the status quo to the beta. There's not really many examples you can post; I suppose you could mention all the things you like about the live version, but that'd be more of the same, they essentially just be posting a list. It's like saying I prefer chocolate to vanilla icecream, hotdogs to burgers, and rice to beans and so forth.

 

 

No, it isn't a statement to Jagex because they disregard anything that isn't constructive and want to focus on modernising the game to keep it alive.

 

 

Not true. If a significant portion of the community registered complaints, Jagex would have no choice but to address them. Secondly, your entire premise with regards to "constructive" criticism is essentially a trap. It's basically telling people that the only way they can be constructive is if they offer suggestions on how to improve the beta(thus accepting the framework of the beta; which means they'd be agreeing with you), it completely ignores people who don't want a beta at all. While I support the beta, I find your position to be somewhat close-minded.

 

I would rather a minority group of players quit and have the game survive into the future than see the game crumble in a years time because they decided to keep the old system.

 

It's not the case, nor has any conclusive evidence been provided to substantiate the following claims:

 

A) Without the beta, the game will surely "die"; the beta is necessary.

B) The beta will help RS attract a new influx of players.

 

These are only assumptions(and while I do agree with them), we have no evidence thus far. It could be the case that RS loses a significant amount of players over this, and fails to attract a proportional amount of new players. I don't think that's what will happen(and I think the claims I posted above are likely to be true), but there's no way to be sure.

 

 

That isn't selfish, it's the greater good. If people don't or can't understand why this is being done then yes, they are ignorant.

 

Actually what you describe(your own view) is quite selfish. You are essentially telling people that unless they share your preferences, they are "selfish" and "ignorant". You do this by aligning your own preferences with the "greater good". Needless to say, it's hardly an impressive tactic, and reeks of desperation.

 

I sympathise with such players too, the combat system IS being heavily changed, but there is still no point in posting comments that contribute nothing but a statement that nobody cares about.

 

This is a demonstrably false statement. Plenty of people are dissatisfied with the beta, they care that others who share their views be able to voice them. Jagex, cares to an extent: they wouldn't want to release something that's unpopular, would they? So there's definitely a "point" to this. It's just that you are far too immersed in your own views to be able to appreciate or even understand the sentiment or significance of the views of people who happen to disagree with you.

[Urza285]

I sympathise with such players too, the combat system IS being heavily changed, but there is still no point in posting comments that contribute nothing but a statement that nobody cares about.

 

This is a demonstrably false statement. Plenty of people are dissatisfied with the beta, they care that others who share their views be able to voice them. Jagex, cares to an extent: they wouldn't want to release something that's unpopular, would they? So there's definitely a "point" to this. It's just that you are far too immersed in your own views to be able to appreciate or even understand the sentiment or significance of the views of people who happen to disagree with you.

I disagree in your statement. He has a valid point and it seems that every highly debated topic on runescape touches on this sub-topic. player opinions are often vague and not constructive to building a better game. The level of concern and value may be genuine, but often that level of concern is not adequately expressed in their comments and critiques. Jagex has often touched on this when asking for advise because way too many players only spend the time to type out 3-5 sentences.

[Sy_Accursed]

At the whole debate about 'im qutting' being a worthwhile post:

 

They serve the purpose of being useless and allowing whiners to inflate their statistics.

It's like good old RSOF suggestions - people see a few hundred whiners (who are by nature more vocal than the content) and are like omg everybody hates it.

 

But lets sit back and consider REAL numbers.

We passed 5m accounts earlier this year, let's assume the negative people's views are true and only like 10% of those are real people, that's still 500,000 accounts.

You are saying 'everyone' hates it and that 1 more posting saying so may make a point based on seeing maybe 500 people say they hate it. That's only 1%, what about the other 99% who have not moaned about it? Whilst not perfectly accurate to assume they all like the change it's a safe bet the majority are at least ok with the fact it's gonna happen cause they aren't moaning.

Scale things back up to a more realistic level and assume a good 60% of the 5m accounts are real that'd leave us with 3m accounts and those 500 whiners you saw that account for 'everybody' is only 0.02%.

 

Plus of course there is the factor raised by others: They gave us a beta for the express purpose of allowing us to give feedback. Saying 'I hate it' or 'I'm qutting' is vague and does not achieve anything because you haven't given any details Jmods could possibly use to build on it. Plus I find a lot of the haters utter sell outs in that a good 50% of them have barely touched the beta, if at all and simply hate it because they do not understand the system; a point compounded by the fact that most of the haters in my clan when 'forced' onto the beta to do the tutorial to get the xp suddenly quite liked it because they actually used it and got an understanding of how things worked.

 

I for one cannot wait for the release to happen mainly so that all the haters and I'm going to quit whiners can go and quit so we don;t have to put up with there persistent negativity that isn't even constructive as they fail to give any true details of an issue.

[SwreeTak]

RuneScape is trying to be like other MMO's. This is not good in my opinion. RuneScape's combat set it apart via being simple. This has ruined RS for me and I have completed my run on RS.

It's called adapting. Also they aren't "like" other MMO's. they carry similar yet distinct "concepts."

Karnsy's post is trying to be like other complainers on Runescape's FB page & RSOF uninformed, simplistic and lacking any real critique value (or whatever you want to cal it). Therefore it is not good in my opinion and ruined reading my reading pleasure, my run of caring for his opinion is over.

Thanks and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

EDIT: on topic though posts like that piss me the hell off. All I see whenever Jagex post on the RS fb page now is please don't release EoC your going to ruin your game, over 90% of veterans will quit if you release EoC or stop trying to copy WoW gf wowscape etc. etc.

If your that upset about the EoC coming, make a detailed complaint about what exactly is so bad with it i.e. prayer drain, ability cooldowns/effects etc. and let Jagex try to tweak the EoC to make it playable for you.

Ultimately the EoC is coming no matter what, adapt or shut the hell up complaining and ragequit already.

Couldn't agree more. Sure, EoC isn't perfect, but when you don't have any arguments behind your critique...And the EoC is coming anyway, as stated. Finally, RuneScape is just a game. If you don't like it there are thousands of others you can play in your free time.

[Grand Lord Dan]

At the whole debate about 'im qutting' being a worthwhile post:

 

They serve the purpose of being useless and allowing whiners to inflate their statistics.

It's like good old RSOF suggestions - people see a few hundred whiners (who are by nature more vocal than the content) and are like omg everybody hates it.

 

But lets sit back and consider REAL numbers.

We passed 5m accounts earlier this year, let's assume the negative people's views are true and only like 10% of those are real people, that's still 500,000 accounts.

You are saying 'everyone' hates it and that 1 more posting saying so may make a point based on seeing maybe 500 people say they hate it. That's only 1%, what about the other 99% who have not moaned about it? Whilst not perfectly accurate to assume they all like the change it's a safe bet the majority are at least ok with the fact it's gonna happen cause they aren't moaning.

Scale things back up to a more realistic level and assume a good 60% of the 5m accounts are real that'd leave us with 3m accounts and those 500 whiners you saw that account for 'everybody' is only 0.02%.

 

Plus of course there is the factor raised by others: They gave us a beta for the express purpose of allowing us to give feedback. Saying 'I hate it' or 'I'm qutting' is vague and does not achieve anything because you haven't given any details Jmods could possibly use to build on it. Plus I find a lot of the haters utter sell outs in that a good 50% of them have barely touched the beta, if at all and simply hate it because they do not understand the system; a point compounded by the fact that most of the haters in my clan when 'forced' onto the beta to do the tutorial to get the xp suddenly quite liked it because they actually used it and got an understanding of how things worked.

 

I for one cannot wait for the release to happen mainly so that all the haters and I'm going to quit whiners can go and quit so we don;t have to put up with there persistent negativity that isn't even constructive as they fail to give any true details of an issue.

 

It really is a shame that only a mere fraction of the people crying and moaning that they'll quit will actually you know, quit. Most of them will still be here, ready to cry ruination over the next subtle change Jagex starts work on. Oh, if only we were lucky enough to have people actually go through with their threats.

[Sylpheed]

I think they do serve some discussion value; they register dissatisfaction with the beta at this stage. If none of those people posted, Jagex and other players might get the false impression that more people are actually okay with the beta now.

 

Their reasons are quite clear: they prefer the status quo to the beta. There's not really many examples you can post; I suppose you could mention all the things you like about the live version, but that'd be more of the same, they essentially just be posting a list. It's like saying I prefer chocolate to vanilla ice cream, hotdogs to burgers, and rice to beans and so forth.

 

I'm starting to think you are just arguing for the sake of it to be honest, I don't understand what your stance is. You personally prefer the EoC but want people to continuously post one sentence comments that ARE by their very nature pointless comments on a General Discussion forum. As you said further down in your post, these kinds of comments have been around since the start of RuneScape and yes, you are right.

 

Do you know what all these comments have in common? They are almost always part of the vocal minority and don't represent the majority of the player base. Even if they did, Jagex's survey of the players at the end of the tutorial has emphasized true statistics; most players prefer, don't mind or equally like EoC over the live game. Before you say "Well, players who don't like the beta won't log in to the worlds to complete the survey" I wouldn't waste your breath, it is a perfect opportunity for them to voice their dislike of the EoC using an outlet that would make a difference.

 

Not true. If a significant portion of the community registered complaints, Jagex would have no choice but to address them. Secondly, your entire premise with regards to "constructive" criticism is essentially a trap. It's basically telling people that the only way they can be constructive is if they offer suggestions on how to improve the beta(thus accepting the framework of the beta; which means they'd be agreeing with you), it completely ignores people who don't want a beta at all. While I support the beta, I find your position to be somewhat close-minded.

 

But players saying "The beta sucks, it's just copying other games like WoW, I'm done with Rs" isn't being close minded at all is it? Obviously not, going by your logic. When the Beta worlds were released Jagex made it absolutely clear that the EoC would be replacing the old combat system. I don't know if you have seen the EoC forums on the RSOF but your comments lead me to believe that you haven't otherwise you would see the myriad of threads where players have stated they don't like the current state of the EoC but offer sound advice and criticism to Jagex which is much more elaborate than "[bleep] you Jagex, RIP Rs 2001-2012"

 

Traps? You seem to be grasping at straws, this isn't a win-lose situation between players that like and dislike the beta.

 

 

It's not the case, nor has any conclusive evidence been provided to substantiate the following claims:

 

A) Without the beta, the game will surely "die"; the beta is necessary.

B) The beta will help RS attract a new influx of players.

 

These are only assumptions(and while I do agree with them), we have no evidence thus far. It could be the case that RS loses a significant amount of players over this, and fails to attract a proportional amount of new players. I don't think that's what will happen(and I think the claims I posted above are likely to be true), but there's no way to be sure.

 

They are assumptions to the extent that Jagex has explicitly stated numerous times that the game needs to be changed in such a way to preserve the games future. If you can honestly say that RuneScape's current combat system isn't dated OR competent enough to attract or even keep players when compared to the combat system of any other MMO out there, then it is you that is close-minded.

 

Again, it just looks like you are arguing for arguments sake and sitting on the fence. You keep saying that you support the EoC but then vehemently defend players that have nothing to offer except for a statement that they are quitting.

 

 

Actually what you describe(your own view) is quite selfish. You are essentially telling people that unless they share your preferences, they are "selfish" and "ignorant". You do this by aligning your own preferences with the "greater good". Needless to say, it's hardly an impressive tactic, and reeks of desperation.

 

I'm not aligning my preferences with the greater good, my preference is the EoC, which is the new system. Are you now saying I'm being selfish and wrong to like the new system over the old one?

 

I honestly have no idea what you mean now, what reeks of desperation? You also seem to be misunderstanding my posts, if anything I am encouraging people to dislike the beta as much as people like it because I want to see what they dislike about it to see if they have valid concerns. If it wasn't for such criticisms there probably wouldn't even be a momentum ability at all, and this is the kind of feedback that Jagex values.

 

Everyone has the right to voice their dislike with the game in any way they want, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

 

This is a demonstrably false statement. Plenty of people are dissatisfied with the beta, they care that others who share their views be able to voice them. Jagex, cares to an extent: they wouldn't want to release something that's unpopular, would they? So there's definitely a "point" to this. It's just that you are far too immersed in your own views to be able to appreciate or even understand the sentiment or significance of the views of people who happen to disagree with you.

 

Another classic case of selective reading. If you had actually read anything I have written on this topic so far, you would realize that I have nothing against people that don't like the beta and I do sympathize with players that don't or can't like it. Here is the part that you want to read more than once as you seem to have missed it multiple times. One line statements being posted on a forum board that values discussion, hold NO discussion value, at all. This doesn't mean that I have some kind of vendetta against players that don't like the EoC it means I don't like to waste my time reading the same statement every day when I want to read thoughtful posts on the subject.

[strilmus]

I decided the survey was valid on the basis that anybody who doesn't do the survey has no right to voice their concerns when they haven't actually tried it in a structured situation (and even then it's still not enough to demonstrate the important parts, so it places the situation in favor of the negativity to begin with), so if anybody has any objections to the survey itself (as opposed to objections to how Jagex uses the results) then I do not believe it is worth discussing to the point of splitting hairs.

 

Most of the people I have talked to about their quitting of the game and declaring Runescape's death have not really come up with strong reasons when pressed for details, and I feel that it is within my right to dismiss their claims if they do not have anything to support their opinion, if they wish to be considered representative of part the player base. From what I see of Runescape Classic statistics, dislike of change is not enough to warrant halting it completely.

[Deletion]

To be fair; "I don't like it" is a legitimate reason to quit. Not liking EoC is generally due it straying quite far from how the game is now. It may not have a rational reason behind it, but it's definitely a valid reason to quit.

[Urza285]

To be fair; "I don't like it" is a legitimate reason to quit. Not liking EoC is generally due it straying quite far from how the game is now. It may not have a rational reason behind it, but it's definitely a valid reason to quit.

It's not about legitimate reasons for quitting. You own your own beliefs. with that said no one can say your reasons for leaving are illigitimate. In general though the "I'm sick of hearing you whine" throwback is about hearing unconstructive feedback as to why they believe the game is now bad. what makes it worse is thesr comments are often ended in saying "I quit," "I unsubbed," "I pay I say," etc.

 

 

 

[Ginger_Warrior]

Although the irony is that simply stating "I'm sick of hearing you whine" is equally as unconstructive as whining for unsubstantiated reasons in the first place.

 

I have not done a survey (some would argue Jagex haven't either, technically) but I get the feeling from my own intuition that people are using this as the "final straw" for them quitting. Which is perfectly fine and understandable. Sometimes, it's not one big thing that causes an event, it's the culmination of lots of little things, and lord knows Jagex have done a fine job of not doing the little things properly over the years.

[Deletion]

I completely agree with that. But in the context: "Most of the people I have talked to about their quitting of the game and declaring Runescape's death have not really come up with strong reasons when pressed for details", not liking the update is a completely valid reason to quit. Declaring RuneScape's death is just being melodramatic.

[Demoli]

There is no problem in quitting if you don't like it. There is something wrong, however, if you go into a EoC discussion thread, where we are trying to figure out good stuff to use and overall stats and strategies, dropping a "it sucks cuz its wow", providing no extra information or insight and then expecting to act like it was not only a good argument, but a good argument designated for this thread in particular.

 

Back to the discussion at hand, I'll do some time comparisons next week after i wrap up my exams, but I've tried out Sagaies today.

 

Sagaies are 1000~ k damage, one handed and average speed. Considering the same style, thrown, the best offhand is dragon darts, but I'll use off hand rune knives as a more cost efficient alternative. In the end, both are pretty close, so I used them both as a small comparison. Long story short, dual wielding Sagaie+Off hand thrown is roughly the same power as Crystal Bow, with more frequent autos, so with momentum, assuming ranged bolt weakness, sagaie+ rune knvies/DDs are beter DPS than Crystal, but i'm assuming lower than Zaryte. So, in thrown weak tasks, It IS better to use Sagaies + Knives than a Crystal Bow or Dual CCB, but Zaryte bow will probably be the same or better.

 

However, this is only assuming momentum on maximum dps loadouts, so no shields. If you go active, Bows are much beter for chaining abilities, for you can activate abilities the second your carachter pulls the string for auto damage+ability damage+effect for the full damage of the bow. If i'm not mistaken, with Dual Wield, only the main weapon damage counts, so not only are abilities weaker, you also loose on off-hand special attacks. I wish there was a 2-handed Javelin or something. Same thing for otehr styles really, I wish there was a 2H'd STAB and Slash weapon for lv 80, aswell as a 2H'r Crossbow at 80. Also, make Halberds crush, so you can have 2h'd crush, stab and Slash in each set (halberd, spear, 2h). In general, dual wielding is much less DPS than 2H'ers due to not chaining abilities aswell, but you don't have as much overkill loss. With momentum, DPS is usually the same assuming same style and tier.

 

In a more light-hearted note, here is a fun glitch I found with Sagaies:

 

 

You keep throwing them backwards, it's hilarious, specially with the Charge shot. I also found out Steel throwing knives now look like normal kitchen knives, somehow, I find that hilarious.

[Alg]

Declaring RuneScape's death is just being melodramatic.

I've always thought it was more spiteful than anything else. "I don't enjoy the game anymore and I hope that nobody else has the opportunity to".

[chenw]

That I think has to do with ranged abilities lacking in ones that deal damage from both weapons (compared that to melee, which has 2 basics, 2 Thresholds and 2 Ultimates that I can remember), hence why 2h are better atm, since most abilities (unless they say it deals damage from both weapons) only base on your MH, your OH being left out in the cold.

 

Once we get a few abilities, most importantly, a few basic abilities, that deal damage from both ranged weapons, we might once again see DW being the setup of choice.

 

I have no problems with the current setup though, it's good to have some sort of variation rather than dual wield your way across everything

[Sylpheed]

There is no problem in quitting if you don't like it. There is something wrong, however, if you go into a EoC discussion thread, where we are trying to figure out good stuff to use and overall stats and strategies, dropping a "it sucks cuz its wow", providing no extra information or insight and then expecting to act like it was not only a good argument, but a good argument designated for this thread in particular.

 

This is exactly what I was getting at earlier.

 

Back on topic though, I haven't had a chance to check the beta for a while but is there a method in game yet to get off-hand Dragon darts or is there an option to choose between main and off hand when you add feathers to the dart tips?

[Deletion]

I don't know if this has been asked already and Jagex have already explained; but why don't they just add the option on regular weapons to change then to off-hand and vice versa? So instead of going out and having to specifically create off-hand items, you can just just right-click a regular version and wield it in the off-hand (or wield-X in the case of thrown ammo)? I mean sure for items like whips which we are graphically limited to only having one in the on-hand it wouldn't work, but any other reasons why not?

[IridiumBunny]

There is no problem in quitting if you don't like it. There is something wrong, however, if you go into a EoC discussion thread, where we are trying to figure out good stuff to use and overall stats and strategies, dropping a "it sucks cuz its wow", providing no extra information or insight and then expecting to act like it was not only a good argument, but a good argument designated for this thread in particular.

 

This is exactly what I was getting at earlier.

 

Back on topic though, I haven't had a chance to check the beta for a while but is there a method in game yet to get off-hand Dragon darts or is there an option to choose between main and off hand when you add feathers to the dart tips?

 

When the beta started darts had two options, Wield and Wield-offhand. Although I have not tried in a while.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Declaring RuneScape's death is just being melodramatic.

I've always thought it was more spiteful than anything else. "I don't enjoy the game anymore and I hope that nobody else has the opportunity to".

It's also a mental defence mechanism, and not a very subtle one at that. "I'm leaving this game, and to all those who think I'm doing the wrong thing, time will show I was right to do so at this point, and you'll wish you had too." Rather than "I'm leaving this game because I personally don't like it any more, regardless of how many people still do."

 

For some of them, it might be the right time for them to stop playing and do something more constructive. I honestly wish them all the best in that regard, and I've come across people who I wish would follow that advice with that same level of self-awareness. But to say they're doing it because the game is less appealing to everyone is wrong; it isn't less appealing to everyone.

 

We're moving off-topic but it's been a very natural progression to this tangent, so I hope the moderators don't mind us discussing it briefly.

[Sir_Squab]

Although the irony is that simply stating "I'm sick of hearing you whine" is equally as unconstructive as whining for unsubstantiated reasons in the first place.

 

I have not done a survey (some would argue Jagex haven't either, technically) but I get the feeling from my own intuition that people are using this as the "final straw" for them quitting. Which is perfectly fine and understandable. Sometimes, it's not one big thing that causes an event, it's the culmination of lots of little things, and lord knows Jagex have done a fine job of not doing the little things properly over the years.

 

From my understanding, you get these people who don't really like something, who are ready to quit it, yet aren't quite there yet - playing the game is status quo, and they need something to change the status quo. A big change like this will change the status quo no matter what.

 

Personally, I think of this update as the sort of update RS needs. Why? When I look at the current RS, it's not a game I could recommend to friends. I would look for a more fun and engaging game. The storyline, while good and enticing, well, good and enticing storyline isn't unique to RS.

 

Ok, so, back to EoC, something I'm not clear on - are the spellcaster dominion gloves actual gloves now or still basically a chaotic staff? If they're a chaotic staff I don't need to get one, if they're gloves I don't need my virtus gloves.

 

POTATO

[Platinum_Myr]

The main reason for having two separate things is because it means they can add offhand drops and increase the possible value of certain monsters.

[Kimberly]

Ok, so, back to EoC, something I'm not clear on - are the spellcaster dominion gloves actual gloves now or still basically a chaotic staff? If they're a chaotic staff I don't need to get one, if they're gloves I don't need my virtus gloves.

 

Yeah they're gloves again on release.