The Evolution of Combat: BETA discussion

[Hedgehog]

I'm just going to consider your data invalid, then.

[Failed Acct]

I'm just going to consider your data invalid, then.

 

Lol...that is pretty rude the guy was just answering your question. I agree with him, if you're going to be an ass about it then go out and test it for yourself.

[Hedgehog]

I'm just going to consider your data invalid, then.

 

Lol...that is pretty rude the guy was just answering your question. I agree with him, if you're going to be an ass about it then go out and test it for yourself.

He is providing unscientific, inaccurate, and pretty much false information. Why would I consider his data valid?

[Failed Acct]

I'm just going to consider your data invalid, then.

 

Lol...that is pretty rude the guy was just answering your question. I agree with him, if you're going to be an ass about it then go out and test it for yourself.

He is providing unscientific, inaccurate, and pretty much false information. Why would I consider his data valid?

 

I never said you had to take everything he said as gospel, but you don't have to be rude about the information he is trying to give you. If you want to record 1000 hits, average the results and calculate the standard deviation then that is fine, do it yourself.

[Platinum_Myr]

Hedgehog is right. The data provided is invalid because it is conjecture. Without actual recorded values it means nothing, due to the way our brains tend to bias memory towards data that matches with what we're expecting. Obviously, she could do data herself, but it is a big task and so asking for help, and getting an answer that implies having data, she is right to ignore invalid data.

[Hedgehog]

The plan is to gather the data myself, but I'm a busy person and I'd like some help. I'm always grateful for any data, as long as it's actual data.

[Patch_umz]

The thing is, you don't have to. If the game didn't show us crits, then you would. But since crits are automatically max hits, you don't need to record 1000 hits, you only look at the huge colored numbers and you can see the percent difference in damage.

 

If this were any other game, where it didn't tell you outright "This is the max you can hit", then yes, you should invalidate my data and record a few hours of damage and take calculations into account. But since it actually DOES tell you if you maxed, there's simply no need.

 

So you can spend days/weeks gathering data with some kind of ElitistJerks testing team, or you can log on yourself, watch the damage for 15 minutes, and get it yourself. That's how easy they made it with the "crit" system.

[Hedgehog]

Crits aren't max hits. They're critical hits.

[Miss Lioness]

You recorded only max hits. That is only a small part of the game.

 

If Momentum would increase the average DPS then we want to know by what amount. Then you need to take into account what the normal hits are.

This would take over a 1000 hours of testing to be absolutely sure. If doing Slayer then you want higher DPS. Ofcourse with attention and thus ability spamming will always be better then auto attacking, but if one want to semi-afk then the question rises whats the average increase in percentages to the auto-attacks. That's the question that has been asked.

 

An increase of 20% in max hits doesn't mean increase of 20% in DPS.

[Patch_umz]

Crits aren't max hits. They're critical hits.

No, they are max hits, that's how they were first implemented ages and ages ago, and that's still how they are now. They look pretty to show you that you hit your max. As proof, every crit is always the same general number. I will ALWAYS crit 4200 with Asphyxiate. Never higher, never lower. Same with my auto attacks, 2500 or so, never higher, never lower. (I rounded the numbers, obviously, since it's like 2528 or whatever)

 

You recorded only max hits. That is only a small part of the game.

 

If Momentum would increase the average DPS then we want to know by what amount. Then you need to take into account what the normal hits are.

This would take over a 1000 hours of testing to be absolutely sure. If doing Slayer then you want higher DPS. Ofcourse with attention and thus ability spamming will always be better then auto attacking, but if one want to semi-afk then the question rises whats the average increase in percentages to the auto-attacks. That's the question that has been asked.

 

An increase of 20% in max hits doesn't mean increase of 20% in DPS.

Max hits are just like every other hit, but it's consistent. So it does not necessarily reflect DPS, but as I said, it's a flat 20% extra damage boost on your autoattacks.

[Hedgehog]

>.<

 

Crits randomly occur (once every 500 or so hits) and are entirely separate from your auto attacks. They're subject to the same RNG as auto attacks as well, so don't lie about crits being "always the same general number".

 

You need 4 things to calculate dps: Max hit, max attack roll, max defense roll, and weapon speed. Hence why we need to know how much momentum increases max hit (and, potentially, MAR).

 

So stop providing false data, please. You're not helping anyone.

 

If you really need to carry on with this discussion, then PM me, but I'm sick of this already.

[Patch_umz]

Just went and manually tested it again.

 

30 "crits" without Momentum, every single last one of them: 837

 

30 "crits" with Momentum, every single last one of them: 1004

 

So now do some basic math and figure out what 20% of 837 is, if you can.

 

This was using Air Strike against Ogres at the combat training camp with an Armadyl Battlestaff and 79 Magic. I switched targets if one was low enough to get killed (therefore never artificially capping my damage and ruining results).

 

So you can pretend these results are also made up and don't count... but if you simply went on and tested it yourself for literally 10-15 minutes you'd get exactly what I got. A flat 20% extra potential max-damage to auto attacks. No, not DPS, you can calculate DPS from the numbers we already know though, if you so choose.

 

This test is simply providing you the exact effect of the new ability, Momentum. As I stated it was over 6 hours ago and a couple pages back. I never claimed to know how much DPS you'd gain.

 

So if you wanted help determining DPS, sure, but you wanted to know what Momentum did, and I told you.

[Urza285]

Kind of sad that now my dominion gloves are currently useless in beta.

[Den]

Do Goliath's have their stun/stat drain effect in the beta, or are they just a tier 80 crush weapon?

Didn't test them in combat when I logged in earlier and going off for a bit.

[Failed Acct]

Do Goliath's have their stun/stat drain effect in the beta, or are they just a tier 80 crush weapon?

Didn't test them in combat when I logged in earlier and going off for a bit.

 

From the patch notes Jagex states:

 

The gloves currently act as level 80 two-handed weapons with no extra effects. They will be receiving a passive effect in a future beta update.

 

So hopefully they will be getting their effect back before the update goes live.

[Urza285]

What seems to be awkward about beta is that a lot of the passive abilities of items are being locked out by their tier system. I think abilities are great, but I think having items with passive boosts or abilities makes for a great game addition.

[HunterDexter]

Yeah, all unique boosts are gone it seems, the polypore spell, how the gloves behaved, the three god spells (how would the unlocking be now?), the spellcaster box gone,... Those unique Things would be great to be corporated more into the game, but I understand why most of them are changed/deleted, still, I'm sad, I dearly love how everything works now (nostalgia glasses!). XD

[Leon S]

I wish they put a dummy in game with infinite health that would tell you your DPS. Just like a dummy on WoW with the Recount/Skada add on.

[Sy_Accursed]

Yeah, all unique boosts are gone it seems, the polypore spell, how the gloves behaved, the three god spells (how would the unlocking be now?), the spellcaster box gone,... Those unique Things would be great to be corporated more into the game, but I understand why most of them are changed/deleted, still, I'm sad, I dearly love how everything works now (nostalgia glasses!). XD

 

They already said the dom tower glove would get passive abilities back in a few weeks. There's barely any passive abilities that we have actually lost.

Yes polypore went and the 3 god spells, though the 3 god spells have been replaced by 1 new spell unlocked in the same way, but they were less passive abilities more unique spells.

But what other passive abilities are gone?

Attractor, Accumulator and Alerter still do their thing.

Void still has its boosts.

Slayer helm still works.

Barrows set effects are still there.

[Saradomin_Mage]

I think the problem is that some passive abilities which persist in the EoC have largely had their usefulness reduced or checked. The Barrow set effects, Void, FSH, and probably most others only apply in autoattack combat, which in most cases now will be never.

 

This update also probably shows a few problems with the strict tiering system - goliath and spellcaster gloves are basically equivalents of the chaotic maul and staff, which basically kills those chaotics for usefulness as goliaths and spellcasters have much lower operational costs.

[Artemis1330]

86 magic and bursting, getting 756k mage/hour. Not sure what the mage/hp ratio is in beta but if it's 2/1 thats 1.1m overall xp/hour at 86 mage and burst.

 

[Earthman]

Did a little test with slayer. I use the type of attack that monster are weak to, so for monsters that are weak to spells, I mainly use ancient magicks (except for ice stryks, I use fire surge there, will test out ancients later), for monsters weak to bolts I use broad bolts, for monsters weak to knives and darts I use rune (the offhand version as well), for monsters weak to stab I use the rapier, for monsters weak to slash I use the CLS, for monsters weak to crush I use the chaotic maul. If I left anything out, please let me know.

 

I didn't test out all the monsters that I usually slay, but I'm working on that right now. I think these xp rates are a bit too high, unless Jagex wants to devalue slayer like they did runecrafting. I also tested out slaying with both the new ability 'Momentum' and just using up all the abilities you can. Here are the results:

 

I think there are more effective ways on how you could use your abilities and I will continue to try and improve my fighting. Momentum is good for players who don't like the new system and are willing to sacrifice some xp for AFK training.

[Patch_umz]

The thing about training now, is that the stronger mobs give significantly better experience. So instead of experience being good simply because the lowby mob has a lot of health, the higher level mobs tend to give a ton of experience. And honestly, I wouldn't mind combat being as efficient as other skills are. This could be the "fix" to people feeling they need to AFK combat train. (I group Slayer with combat)

[Leon S]

The ABS gives a 10% damage boost to SoA by the way, making it more powerful than Divine Storm.

 

I did a hellhound task, using SoA, Torment, overloads and Momentum. I was getting 330k Magic xp/h and 64k Slayer xp/h.

[jayc3399]

Just tried out barraging on ape atoll, I've never done it on live but this is what I found.

 

Xp scaled as time when on and more skeletons spawned in the same area just before I left I was in the realm of about 30 skeletons stacked up. Initially xp is fairly slow but it ramped up quickly. I only used 4 abilities, dragon breath, chain, tsunami and preperation(10% dmg reduction) I had to pray ss the whole time to stand a chance to live at the end as even casting blood barrage on that many targets wouldn't keep me alive. at the 25 minute mark I was pulling down somewhere in the realm of 800-900k xp/hour. Inventory was:

 

Blood Runes, Fire Runes, Water Runes, Greegree, 1 super anti poison, 3 extreme mage pots, 3 rocktail 17 prayer pots. All pots were 4 dose.

 

Gear was:

Gano visor, arc stream, ahrims top and bottom, infinity boots, sol, barrows gloves and ardy cape 3. I had 6 prayer bonus and it looked like the p pots I had would last me ~ 1hr

 

If this doesn't change at all I wont be leveling mage any time soon on live as this was incredibly easy, not afk at all though, but the insane xp/hour more then makes up for that.

 

 

 

EDIT: Also was just thinking if I had taken a 1 hand weapon and an off hand I could have used some of the shield defensive abilities to make it easier to survive.

 

 

 

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