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I'm glad that I don't care if someone else gets an advantage or something for real money. I see 20 times a day the message where someone becomes maxed, so why care anymore? And I play the game for my personal enjoyment so I don't care what people do. I know some people with a little more competitive mind cannot agree with me. I still want to burn the damn sof Goblin.


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^ First off, because some people actually play to be competative. Remember, there are people with double your total xp in a SINGLE skill. Some enjoy RS just because of their own goals, etc, but others enjoy competition. Setting records, getting richer, gaining a better spot on the HS. And when some people can do so easier because they have/are willing to spend IRL cash on the game, they see that as unfair, and I tend to agree. Mainly because Jagex has said, as a reason for going against RWT, that "we don't want players to be able to buy their way to success."

 

 

I just wanted to add here that I would no longer be surprised if Jagex decides to release a cash shop soon. As much hype as they're creating about the SoF, with plenty of updates every month for it, I doubt they will stop focusing on rwt updates. I don't think the SoF will disappear now. I don't hate it as much as when it was released...I have kind of got used to it now, and pretty much given up a bit. I still agree with Ts_Stormrage though. SoF doesn't belong in RS. Especially not the buyable spins part of it. Keep fighting, Ts, and all of you other who keep doing a great job to protest.

Selling cash in a game like RS is a terrible idea, since the only real currency is cash. It would destroy the economy. Pets, cosmetic items, skill % increases, maybe even certain "lucky" items I could see them selling. GP, no.

 

In a game like WOW, where most items have to be earned/gotten as drops, a cash sale *might* be viable. Gold is used for training skills, riding/flying increases, repairs, and things of the sort. It would harm the pure gold economy but not destroy it.

 

Not so in RS. In RS the *only* (real) way besides being given an item, buying it black market, or getting it as a drop, is really to buy an item with GP. Inflation would be much worse than what 26king did to the economy.

 

I mean, if right now, I could buy 1.5b for 750 dollars black market, and with that buy a divine, torva, and whatever else nex gear or w/e I wanted, no new cash is entering the game.

 

BUT if Jagex sold cash, that acceptance that buying gold is legal would mean more people would buy it, and if Jagex's prices were cheaper than 3rd party, we'd see a twofold problem, first off, NEW cash magically entering the economy. Second, far more people have far more cash than before, so current stockpiles of cash devalue. With max cash being only 2.2b, rares and other items suddenly become the only way of buying rares/desirables like nex sets, corp shields, etc, as demand is suddenly SO MUCH higher. Back to the old problems of no free trade days.


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Selling pets and cosmetic items would be ok by me, and I doubt many people would have a problem with it, but the selling of xp from SOF is the thing which annoys me (and a lot of people).


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I'm glad that I don't care if someone else gets an advantage or something for real money. I see 20 times a day the message where someone becomes maxed, so why care anymore? And I play the game for my personal enjoyment so I don't care what people do. I know some people with a little more competitive mind cannot agree with me. I still want to burn the damn sof Goblin.

Out of interest and so I can build an analogy that suits you, what mmo aspects of rs do you enjoy?

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Runescape is hardly "competitive", at least by my definition. Competition, in my opinion, is besting other players in a tournament setting for prizes (usually cash). When I played Super Smash Bros. Brawl competitively, I traveled to various cities and states to play for money. When I played League of Legends competitively, I fought match after match every Sunday with my team in hopes of winning Riot Points or Alienware gear. I can see how some people might consider PKing and staking competitive, but all the prizes are virtual. I can't see people grinding solely because they want to show others how much experience they have by comparison.

 

@99134: Agreed.

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Runescape is hardly "competitive", at least by my definition. Competition, in my opinion, is besting other players in a tournament setting for prizes (usually cash). When I played Super Smash Bros. Brawl competitively, I traveled to various cities and states to play for money. When I played League of Legends competitively, I fought match after match every Sunday with my team in hopes of winning Riot Points or Alienware gear. I can see how some people might consider PKing and staking competitive, but all the prizes are virtual. I can't see people grinding solely because they want to show others how much experience they have by comparison.

 

@99134: Agreed.

 

It is a competitive game as long as players can measure themselves against each other. It may not have tournaments like other games do. That doesn't mean people don't play it competitively. Sure, you might not... But tell that to the people going for 200m in every single skill, competing for ranks on the front page of the highscores.


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^ First off, because some people actually play to be competative. Remember, there are people with double your total xp in a SINGLE skill. Some enjoy RS just because of their own goals, etc, but others enjoy competition. Setting records, getting richer, gaining a better spot on the HS. And when some people can do so easier because they have/are willing to spend IRL cash on the game, they see that as unfair, and I tend to agree. Mainly because Jagex has said, as a reason for going against RWT, that "we don't want players to be able to buy their way to success."

 

 

I just wanted to add here that I would no longer be surprised if Jagex decides to release a cash shop soon. As much hype as they're creating about the SoF, with plenty of updates every month for it, I doubt they will stop focusing on rwt updates. I don't think the SoF will disappear now. I don't hate it as much as when it was released...I have kind of got used to it now, and pretty much given up a bit. I still agree with Ts_Stormrage though. SoF doesn't belong in RS. Especially not the buyable spins part of it. Keep fighting, Ts, and all of you other who keep doing a great job to protest.

Selling cash in a game like RS is a terrible idea, since the only real currency is cash. It would destroy the economy. Pets, cosmetic items, skill % increases, maybe even certain "lucky" items I could see them selling. GP, no.

 

In a game like WOW, where most items have to be earned/gotten as drops, a cash sale *might* be viable. Gold is used for training skills, riding/flying increases, repairs, and things of the sort. It would harm the pure gold economy but not destroy it.

 

Not so in RS. In RS the *only* (real) way besides being given an item, buying it black market, or getting it as a drop, is really to buy an item with GP. Inflation would be much worse than what 26king did to the economy.

 

I mean, if right now, I could buy 1.5b for 750 dollars black market, and with that buy a divine, torva, and whatever else nex gear or w/e I wanted, no new cash is entering the game.

 

BUT if Jagex sold cash, that acceptance that buying gold is legal would mean more people would buy it, and if Jagex's prices were cheaper than 3rd party, we'd see a twofold problem, first off, NEW cash magically entering the economy. Second, far more people have far more cash than before, so current stockpiles of cash devalue. With max cash being only 2.2b, rares and other items suddenly become the only way of buying rares/desirables like nex sets, corp shields, etc, as demand is suddenly SO MUCH higher. Back to the old problems of no free trade days.

 

Certainly it would ruin the economy. I wrote I wouldn't be surprised if Jagex would do this. Not that I didn't believe it would destroy the economy.

Because Jagex are already pumping gp into the game through the SoF. 500k cash piles are not too rare from it. I however doubt that they will actually go so far as to sell pure gold in a cash shop. More likely is xp lamps and certain items. If they keep going in the direction they're heading now, at the same pace, it isn't far away.


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Runescape is hardly "competitive", at least by my definition. Competition, in my opinion, is besting other players in a tournament setting for prizes (usually cash). When I played Super Smash Bros. Brawl competitively, I traveled to various cities and states to play for money. When I played League of Legends competitively, I fought match after match every Sunday with my team in hopes of winning Riot Points or Alienware gear. I can see how some people might consider PKing and staking competitive, but all the prizes are virtual. I can't see people grinding solely because they want to show others how much experience they have by comparison.

 

@99134: Agreed.

 

Every multiplayer game has some elements of competition. Just because you don't view it as competitive doesn't mean its not. In fact, an opinion as to competitiveness is actually worthless. People seem to think opinions matter when facts are concerned.


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Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

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^ First off, because some people actually play to be competative. Remember, there are people with double your total xp in a SINGLE skill. Some enjoy RS just because of their own goals, etc, but others enjoy competition. Setting records, getting richer, gaining a better spot on the HS. And when some people can do so easier because they have/are willing to spend IRL cash on the game, they see that as unfair, and I tend to agree. Mainly because Jagex has said, as a reason for going against RWT, that "we don't want players to be able to buy their way to success."

And yet players able to spend 16+ hours a day are in no way using an IRL benefit to have success in the game? I'm sure everybody's story is different as to how they can AFFORD to spend so much time on the game, but there's some real life trade off going on.

 

There was a suggestion a few months back in the bot thread that maybe this type of advantage (so much free time) should be taxed. In doing so you'd also get at botters that easily stay on the game 24/7 with no worry about real life at all. Basic idea is any playtime over 100 hours would require another 7.95, over 200 requires 15.90 and over 300 hours would be 31.80, etc. The idea was not popular even by people that wouldn't be affected (averaging 3 hours/day for a month). Still, in my mind it sounds like a fair tax on time use in game.

 

Yes, I get that many don't consider time of any real value. Money magically makes everything easier. However, the interpretation of time and money shifts from person to person. Even in competitions (real and virtual), there's no solid line. Better equipment, better training, better time commitment, and better support go to giving the edge to a person. So now, in RS competition, there's a new variable of $200 to get about 2 million XP in a 99 skill per day. That's on top of being allowed 24 hours a day to train the character and affording the best connection and computer.

 

 

I mean, if right now, I could buy 1.5b for 750 dollars black market, and with that buy a divine, torva, and whatever else nex gear or w/e I wanted, no new cash is entering the game.

 

BUT if Jagex sold cash, that acceptance that buying gold is legal would mean more people would buy it, and if Jagex's prices were cheaper than 3rd party, we'd see a twofold problem, first off, NEW cash magically entering the economy. Second, far more people have far more cash than before, so current stockpiles of cash devalue. With max cash being only 2.2b, rares and other items suddenly become the only way of buying rares/desirables like nex sets, corp shields, etc, as demand is suddenly SO MUCH higher. Back to the old problems of no free trade days.

Bad comparison. Unless I'm completely misreading the gp farmer methods, bots still created that money via automated means. It entered the system without the excessive need of human interaction just as if Jagex entered a few lines of code to get a player 1.5 bill gp for cash. Plus, the price is so low because the farmers are competing against each other for player dollars. In doing so, they've noticeably impacted the game in a negative way.

 

Jagex, being the legal source, doesn't have to sell gp cheap. All they have to do is cut out the non legal methods of buying gp. After that, I can see they do it like squeal where there's an advantage to buy gp, but it'd be so expensive the majority of players would not go for it. Like others point out, it seems they nerfed dragonkin lamps so that SoF is the only game in town for rapid xp. Even then, it's an expensive way to train.

 

If there are people willing to spend $200/day for more xp and gp, then more power to them. In my cynical mind, the less money people with that mindset have, the better. In addition, at least Jagex can control the limits where gold farmers never cared. Farmers would flood the market bringing prices down so low that playing the gathering game (a legit part of the game in RS early years) seems like a waste of time.


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^ First off, because some people actually play to be competative. Remember, there are people with double your total xp in a SINGLE skill. Some enjoy RS just because of their own goals, etc, but others enjoy competition. Setting records, getting richer, gaining a better spot on the HS. And when some people can do so easier because they have/are willing to spend IRL cash on the game, they see that as unfair, and I tend to agree. Mainly because Jagex has said, as a reason for going against RWT, that "we don't want players to be able to buy their way to success."

And yet players able to spend 16+ hours a day are in no way using an IRL benefit to have success in the game? I'm sure everybody's story is different as to how they can AFFORD to spend so much time on the game, but there's some real life trade off going on.

 

There was a suggestion a few months back in the bot thread that maybe this type of advantage (so much free time) should be taxed. In doing so you'd also get at botters that easily stay on the game 24/7 with no worry about real life at all. Basic idea is any playtime over 100 hours would require another 7.95, over 200 requires 15.90 and over 300 hours would be 31.80, etc. The idea was not popular even by people that wouldn't be affected (averaging 3 hours/day for a month). Still, in my mind it sounds like a fair tax on time use in game.

 

Yes, I get that many don't consider time of any real value. Money magically makes everything easier. However, the interpretation of time and money shifts from person to person. Even in competitions (real and virtual), there's no solid line. Better equipment, better training, better time commitment, and better support go to giving the edge to a person. So now, in RS competition, there's a new variable of $200 to get about 2 million XP in a 99 skill per day. That's on top of being allowed 24 hours a day to train the character and affording the best connection and computer.

 

 

I mean, if right now, I could buy 1.5b for 750 dollars black market, and with that buy a divine, torva, and whatever else nex gear or w/e I wanted, no new cash is entering the game.

 

BUT if Jagex sold cash, that acceptance that buying gold is legal would mean more people would buy it, and if Jagex's prices were cheaper than 3rd party, we'd see a twofold problem, first off, NEW cash magically entering the economy. Second, far more people have far more cash than before, so current stockpiles of cash devalue. With max cash being only 2.2b, rares and other items suddenly become the only way of buying rares/desirables like nex sets, corp shields, etc, as demand is suddenly SO MUCH higher. Back to the old problems of no free trade days.

Bad comparison. Unless I'm completely misreading the gp farmer methods, bots still created that money via automated means. It entered the system without the excessive need of human interaction just as if Jagex entered a few lines of code to get a player 1.5 bill gp for cash. Plus, the price is so low because the farmers are competing against each other for player dollars. In doing so, they've noticeably impacted the game in a negative way.

 

Jagex, being the legal source, doesn't have to sell gp cheap. All they have to do is cut out the non legal methods of buying gp. After that, I can see they do it like squeal where there's an advantage to buy gp, but it'd be so expensive the majority of players would not go for it. Like others point out, it seems they nerfed dragonkin lamps so that SoF is the only game in town for rapid xp. Even then, it's an expensive way to train.

 

If there are people willing to spend $200/day for more xp and gp, then more power to them. In my cynical mind, the less money people with that mindset have, the better. In addition, at least Jagex can control the limits where gold farmers never cared. Farmers would flood the market bringing prices down so low that playing the gathering game (a legit part of the game in RS early years) seems like a waste of time.

First off you are wrong, because that is 16 hours spent in game. Real life and time don't factor into what Jagex said, thus what I said stands true.

 

No you are wrong. Bots aren't actually creating the CASH. The GOLD. They are creating the items that are sold for the GP. If Jagex sold the gold, it would be GP just entering the economy.

 

lets also not forget the practical implications of the right/wrong dilemma. If Jagex says buying gold is allowed, at least in some people's mind, buying gold from 3rd party will lose its stigma.


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And yet players able to spend 16+ hours a day are in no way using an IRL benefit to have success in the game?

Not really, no. In fact they usually end up getting less efficient xp gains, because they spend proportionally less time on things like the circus.

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^ First off, because some people actually play to be competative. Remember, there are people with double your total xp in a SINGLE skill. Some enjoy RS just because of their own goals, etc, but others enjoy competition. Setting records, getting richer, gaining a better spot on the HS. And when some people can do so easier because they have/are willing to spend IRL cash on the game, they see that as unfair, and I tend to agree. Mainly because Jagex has said, as a reason for going against RWT, that "we don't want players to be able to buy their way to success."

 

I don't think removing the SoF/microtransactions just to please a small minority of players would be a wise decision on Jagex's part.


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Every multiplayer game has some elements of competition. Just because you don't view it as competitive doesn't mean its not. In fact, an opinion as to competitiveness is actually worthless. People seem to think opinions matter when facts are concerned.

 

Major League Gaming doesn't recognize Runescape as competitive. That's a pretty good standard to hold any game that claims to be competitive to. The other games I used in my example have both received attention from the aforementioned organization as well as outside sponsorships. When you compare this to Runescape's advertisements for Squeal of Fortune spins, the distinction is clear. This MMO is artificially competitive at best because of pretentious PKers and try hard casuals who think an experience race matters to the outside world. I mean, people watch LoL and SC2 at bars. My argument is hardly just an opinion.

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The gp market needs to be regulated at least a little bit, and degrading armor and other cash drains do a good enough job now. However if Jagex introduced a cash shop, the money supply would increase massively and the economy wouldn't be able to recover. They'd have to manually remove cash from the game, and I'm willing to bet no one at Jagex understands the economy well enough to do that well.

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Every multiplayer game has some elements of competition. Just because you don't view it as competitive doesn't mean its not. In fact, an opinion as to competitiveness is actually worthless. People seem to think opinions matter when facts are concerned.

 

Major League Gaming doesn't recognize Runescape as competitive. That's a pretty good standard to hold any game that claims to be competitive to. The other games I used in my example have both received attention from the aforementioned organization as well as outside sponsorships. When you compare this to Runescape's advertisements for Squeal of Fortune spins, the distinction is clear. This MMO is artificially competitive at best because of pretentious PKers and try hard casuals who think an experience race matters to the outside world. I mean, people watch LoL and SC2 at bars. My argument is hardly just an opinion.

 

You obviously aren't talking about the same competitive aspect. Competition is different in different circumstances.


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Every multiplayer game has some elements of competition. Just because you don't view it as competitive doesn't mean its not. In fact, an opinion as to competitiveness is actually worthless. People seem to think opinions matter when facts are concerned.

 

Major League Gaming doesn't recognize Runescape as competitive. That's a pretty good standard to hold any game that claims to be competitive to. The other games I used in my example have both received attention from the aforementioned organization as well as outside sponsorships. When you compare this to Runescape's advertisements for Squeal of Fortune spins, the distinction is clear. This MMO is artificially competitive at best because of pretentious PKers and try hard casuals who think an experience race matters to the outside world. I mean, people watch LoL and SC2 at bars. My argument is hardly just an opinion.

 

So if me and my friend race to the store on bikes, it isn't competitive because we aren't recognized by any mayor sporting league's? Sorry, but give this a read please.

 

http://www.thefreedi...com/competitive

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Major League Gaming doesn't recognize Runescape as competitive. That's a pretty good standard to hold any game that claims to be competitive to.

No. No it isn't. :mellow:

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Major League Gaming doesn't recognize Runescape as competitive. That's a pretty good standard to hold any game that claims to be competitive to.

No. No it isn't. :mellow:

 

Competative =/= competition. Chess is a competative game. Doesn't mean every game you play is a competition.


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You obviously aren't talking about the same competitive aspect. Competition is different in different circumstances.

 

A high scores table isn't a good measure of competitiveness because it doesn't measure skill as much as it does time invested. Just because you have millions of experience doesn't necessarily mean you're "good".

 

@Den: I defined competitiveness as recognition by a professional gaming circuit with cash prizes, sponsorships, and tournaments. We're talking specifically about the qualities that make a video game competitive, not the definition of competition.

 

You might want to give this a read.

 

@Alg: Yes. Yes it is.

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@Alg: Yes. Yes it is.

I'll be sure to tell the competitive Pokemon community that they aren't playing a competitive game then. Those tournaments across the world must have been just for fun.

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I'll be sure to tell the competitive Pokemon community that they aren't playing a competitive game then. Those tournaments across the world must have been just for fun.

 

The card game is competitive, but WiFi battles are casual for the most part. Most players aren't even aware of the meta. (Importance of physical and special walls, held items and move list synergy, IV breeding, etc). My definition INCLUDED sponsorships and tournaments, not specifically just recognition by MLG.

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Yes, time spent in game is a luxury that not many people can afford. However, the difference is that everyone has a maximum number of hours per day or per month they can physically play. (24 hours a day). EVERYONE will always have a maximum of 24 hours in one day that they could play.

 

Money doesn't work that way. A person with more money can use that ot make even more. There isn't a limit on how much money a person can spend in a given day (assuming they have it.) That's the difference between time and money.

 

A person who can spend 24 hours a day will never be able to spend more than that. Being able to spend money on the game creates a much bigger impact than time spent.


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I'll be sure to tell the competitive Pokemon community that they aren't playing a competitive game then. Those tournaments across the world must have been just for fun.

 

The card game is competitive, but WiFi battles are casual for the most part. Most players aren't even aware of the meta. (Importance of physical and special walls, held items and move list synergy, IV breeding, etc). My definition INCLUDED sponsorships and tournaments, not specifically just recognition by MLG.

 

Obviously you are going to keep arguing off your opinion (which, besides being wrong, is baseless) instead of answering with facts, such as counterdefinions.

 

Whether or not its competitive in the same way as others is moot. Progression where you can compare yourself amongst peers is the key.

 

Did you hear about that decade long CIV II game? Was that a competition? Not in the sense that its a tournament, heck no. But is it competitive? DUH.


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Did you hear about that decade long CIV II game? Was that a competition? Not in the sense that its a tournament, heck no. But is it competitive? DUH.

 

I don't know what you're talking about, so I'll just respond to the other part of your post.

 

I provided you with MY definition of what constitutes competitiveness for online games, and you refuted my argument with the fact that Runescape has a high scores table. I responded to that by saying that high scores tables are a bad measurement of competitiveness because experience earned doesn't translate into skill. Mini games with ratings, like Fist of Guthix, fit under my definition because rating is similar to the elo rating system used in Chess and League of Legends. But mini games alone are not enough to make a game truly competitive. All you've said is that I'm wrong because what I've said is baseless despite the fact I've given you example after example. Your progression argument goes back to the point I've been trying to make about time spent playing not translating into skill.

 

If comparing time played is your definition of competitiveness, then all I have to say to that is, "I disagree wholeheartedly."

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Yes, time spent in game is a luxury that not many people can afford. However, the difference is that everyone has a maximum number of hours per day or per month they can physically play. (24 hours a day). EVERYONE will always have a maximum of 24 hours in one day that they could play.

 

Money doesn't work that way. A person with more money can use that ot make even more. There isn't a limit on how much money a person can spend in a given day (assuming they have it.) That's the difference between time and money.

 

A person who can spend 24 hours a day will never be able to spend more than that. Being able to spend money on the game creates a much bigger impact than time spent.

If you exclude gp purchased from illegal sources, there is a limit on how much money a person can spend on the game. At the moment, that's $200 per day. Granted, paying $200 a day is as likely as playing 24 hours a day for a vast majority of players. It's just not going to happen. However, there will be people that spend money and spend 12+ hours a day on RS. If they're going through channels that Jagex set up and don't disrupt other player's game, I don't see the major problem. It's not healthy (excess time) and it's probably going to encourage more silly SoF escapades (excess money), but overall I'm not impacted.

 

At the end of the day, from what I've seen of RS, putting in excessive time or money won't help you if you don't learn to play the game. You can have tons of items and xp, but that won't help in playing strategies in PvP or Boss hunting.


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