Well Known RWT'rs banned.

[Kimberly]

They said on the live stream they are going after the current two biggest botting sites and suing their owners

 

I thought this thread was about RWT.

 

The botting software is used for free by RWT gold farmers. According to Mod Sabre, he said that to the best of his understanding, selling gold is illegal because you're profiting off their IP without the right to do so. Whether or not that would actually go over well in court is another thing - I'm sure Stonewall could give insight into that - but it's not just the Impulse software here that is the only legal issue.

[Logdotzip]

A couple more Fishy ranks have been banned recently, one "Pitiful"

 

CLS Product banned today, claims to have lost over 200b

 

Mx799 banned, claims to have lost over 100b

 

Both ran the FrostyFlower clan in CLS Product fc

Edited September 20, 2012 by Kimberly
removed off topic conversation and merged double post

[Artemis1330]

Mx799 bought a comp cape acc and got banned an hour after on that as well, lol'd.

[999134]

win all day set up a new fc and started charging like 5b a rank, loads of people bought and he has now closed the fc.

 

GF idiots.

[Fallstar]

Has no one considered that these people might actually just pay the tax? If it is as easy to clamp down on as certain people in this thread are claiming, surely the reason we have gold selling sites that have been around for nearly a decade now is either:

 

1. They pay their taxes.

2. Tax evasion is easier to get away with over prolonged periods of time than people in this thread claim.

3. The vast majority of these sites are not based in the USA, UK, Canada etc. but in China and some other eastern countries. Is anyone in this thread who is quoting various bits of laws familiar with tax law in such countries?

[chenw]

According to the info Wikipedia has (dates 1997, so treat it as very outdated, but such information is rather difficult to come by), China's revenue when it comes to income tax is minute compared to other forms of Taxation (Adding Business tax, Enterprise income tax and individual income tax, is only about 2/3s of VAT, and within that, individual only account for less than 1/10th).

 

China would be a very poor example when it comes to law or tax enforcement. People there can get away with making food out of leather shoes and card board and subsequently selling them, it wouldn't be hard for them to get away with gold farming income.

[Omali]

According to the info Wikipedia has (dates 1997, so treat it as very outdated, but such information is rather difficult to come by), China's revenue when it comes to income tax is minute compared to other forms of Taxation (Adding Business tax, Enterprise income tax and individual income tax, is only about 2/3s of VAT, and within that, individual only account for less than 1/10th).

 

China would be a very poor example when it comes to law or tax enforcement. People there can get away with making food out of leather shoes and card board and subsequently selling them, it wouldn't be hard for them to get away with gold farming income.

 

You'd have to be pretty ballsy to evade taxes in China, considering tax evasion up until last year was punishable by death.

[chenw]

That would have been a very well kept secret on their part, considering I am their next door neighbour and I have never heard of anyone being executed due to tax evasion.

[Omali]

That would have been a very well kept secret on their part, considering I am their next door neighbour and I have never heard of anyone being executed due to tax evasion.

 

It wasn't secretive. It was in the news.

 

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-02/25/content_12081299.htm

[top25]

This may be a bit off topic, but fishy just did a 90b pot with a guy named maxed phats and during the audio from the people in fishy's fc you could hear people saying "$45,000 pot". I can see exactly why people would do this sort of thing. Maxed phats made 90b($45k) in a minute.

[999134]

that was probably staged to get people to go stake them, retards see people winning big and think that they can somehow profit against the odds flower gaming.

[Blyaunte]

If you don't pay your taxes, you aren't immediately hauled off to jail. They send out a notice and you are usually forced to pay the backtaxes with penalty. My father has been a CPA for over 30 years.

 

Next, it's quite easy to get quite a bit of that money back. Taxes may be certain, but when you are talking about 66k in taxes, there are many things you can do to probably reclaim at least half of that.

Especially if they're still students. I don't know about other places, but I get a massive percentage back (I'm thinking close to all of it) simply because I'm a student.

 

You're missing the point. There is a vast difference between "tax evasion" and "money laundering the proceeds of crime". If you receive income and don't claim it, that is tax evasion. If you put money into numerous different bank accounts and hide it from taxing authorities in order to make it difficult for them to track it, including setting up various accounts under false names, or the names of other people, that is money laundering -- and the penalties for money laundering are quite extensive.

 

If you're money laundering, they don't simply send you a notice and ask you to pay it. They collect evidence of what you've done, get a court order and arrest your ass and throw it in jail ...

[Artemis1330]

That would have been a very well kept secret on their part, considering I am their next door neighbour and I have never heard of anyone being executed due to tax evasion.

 

It wasn't secretive. It was in the news.

 

http://www.chinadail...nt_12081299.htm

 

That article mentions said topic once, and the intention of the article was to highlight the reduction of death penalty crimes. I was under the impression you were trying to show people do actually get executed for this in china.

 

@ others that keep finding laws these dicers break- Doesn't matter how many laws you find. The fact is there is no precedent for anyone being pursued by the irs or any European equivalent. You can find a million laws these kids/people broke, but nothing has ever happened, and nothing will happen.

 

Furthermore, I don't care what the law says, no teenager is going to jail for not paying taxes on selling runescape gold. The "penalties" are not going to be "massive", if they are even pursued. A high school/college age person in the u.s. (which most dicers are) living with his/her parents are going to pay little to no taxes.

 

And no, I am not "on their side". I'd love to see their rl money get taken away, so do not confuse me with cheering for them. As it stands though, nothing has ever happened in the past, and nothing will happen other than a rs ban.

[ilovecuttingyews]

If you don't pay your taxes, you aren't immediately hauled off to jail. They send out a notice and you are usually forced to pay the backtaxes with penalty. My father has been a CPA for over 30 years.

Next, it's quite easy to get quite a bit of that money back. Taxes may be certain, but when you are talking about 66k in taxes, there are many things you can do to probably reclaim at least half of that.

Especially if they're still students. I don't know about other places, but I get a massive percentage back (I'm thinking close to all of it) simply because I'm a student.

You're missing the point. There is a vast difference between "tax evasion" and "money laundering the proceeds of crime". If you receive income and don't claim it, that is tax evasion. If you put money into numerous different bank accounts and hide it from taxing authorities in order to make it difficult for them to track it, including setting up various accounts under false names, or the names of other people, that is money laundering -- and the penalties for money laundering are quite extensive.

If you're money laundering, they don't simply send you a notice and ask you to pay it. They collect evidence of what you've done, get a court order and arrest your ass and throw it in jail ...

My comment was to his last point. We've been going on the assumption that these RWTers don't claim their income but they very well may. And if they do claim it, they can get large portions of those paid taxes back through various means.

[rudes7]

that was probably staged to get people to go stake them, retards see people winning big and think that they can somehow profit against the odds flower gaming

.

 

Omg I love you

[Fallstar]

that was probably staged to get people to go stake them, retards see people winning big and think that they can somehow profit against the odds flower gaming.

 

To be fair, the odds in 0 comm flower poker (the game shown in that vid) are almost 50/50. The only host advantage is that if you tie 2 or 3 times in a row, the host wins. That doesn't happen often. If someone did want to go betting for whatever reason, I would highly suggest you ask your host to play flower poker rather than frosty flowers.

 

Frosty flowers is highly weighted in the hosts favour, being 59% to 41% chance to win in the host's favour. Flower poker with a 5% commission and 3 ties = host wins is more like 54% to 46% in the host's favour. Obviously I would recommend you not bet at all, but if you are absolutely going to, FP is the way to go.

 

A final note: black and white flowers have about a 1/500 chance of coming up, but obviously hosts record every time people get black/white so betters think that they actually have a good chance of getting the 3x bet. The effect the 3x black/white rule has on your odds of winning is effectively negligible.

 

Although, I agree that the video is staged. Anyone capable of making 45b understands that gambling it is stupid for one, and for two that if they did want to gamble there are fairer ways of doing so (Log in pid boxing for example)

[Kaida23]

As it stands though, nothing has ever happened in the past, and nothing will happen other than a rs ban.

This argument was made many times before those bot developers were convicted (many, many, many times), and my rebuttal is the same now as it was then. This is exactly how legal precedent is set. Just because no one has been convicted for it, doesn't mean no one ever will.

 

I will, however, agree that it is very unlikely.

[Guest jrhairychest]

You're missing the point. There is a vast difference between "tax evasion" and "money laundering the proceeds of crime". If you receive income and don't claim it, that is tax evasion. If you put money into numerous different bank accounts and hide it from taxing authorities in order to make it difficult for them to track it, including setting up various accounts under false names, or the names of other people, that is money laundering -- and the penalties for money laundering are quite extensive.

 

If you're money laundering, they don't simply send you a notice and ask you to pay it. They collect evidence of what you've done, get a court order and arrest your ass and throw it in jail ...

Sorry I forgot to include Trades response but I'd agree with him that it's more likely to be undeclared. If the RWTers are younger people then the probability is they would be undeclared rather than laundered. If they're daft enough to brag about it publicly, as has been suggested, then I wouldn't think they'd declare it.

 

This argument was made many times before those bot developers were convicted (many, many, many times), and my rebuttal is the same now as it was then. This is exactly how legal precedent is set. Just because no one has been convicted for it, doesn't mean no one ever will.

My point exactly. Spot on Kaida.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Kimberly
removed off topic conversation

[Deletion]

this entire argument is conjecture:

- Jagex mentioned they were preparing evidence for taking goldsellers to court. But they don't mention if the legal action will be against the websites, and those that run them, or the individuals that supply the gold to these websites.

- Since no precedent has been set; you don't know if RWT would be deemed illegal or not. Hence;

- You don't know if the income has been declared or not.

 

 

Can't you just leave it at: Because no precedent has been set for RWTing these RWTers may or may not be declaring their income and paying tax on it, and hence may or may not face penalties related to tax fraud and money laundering. Jagex may or may not be preparing to take these RWTers to court.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Kimberly
removed off topic banter

[Kimberly]

Topic cleaned; this is for discussing Jagex's recent actions in banning RWT'ers and all that encompasses. Discussing personal traits of someone you don't see eye to eye with are not only against our forum rules, but they don't help the discussion. Please in the future just use the report system and let a moderator do the rest. Thank you!

[top25]

that was probably staged to get people to go stake them, retards see people winning big and think that they can somehow profit against the odds flower gaming.

odds are in favor of the host, but if you have a big enough cash stack you can bet say... 1m on a color and if you lose, bet 2m on the same color and if you lose bet 4m on the same color. eventually odd's will favor you and you will walk away with your all the money you bet +1mill. if you have a lot of cash, you can start off bigger and bet say 10m and will eventually walk off with 10m. if you follow flower games, people do get 10+ streaks, and if you see this you should start your betting on them.

[Hedgehog]

that was probably staged to get people to go stake them, retards see people winning big and think that they can somehow profit against the odds flower gaming.

odds are in favor of the host, but if you have a big enough cash stack you can bet say... 1m on a color and if you lose, bet 2m on the same color and if you lose bet 4m on the same color. eventually odd's will favor you and you will walk away with your all the money you bet +1mill. if you have a lot of cash, you can start off bigger and bet say 10m and will eventually walk off with 10m. if you follow flower games, people do get 10+ streaks, and if you see this you should start your betting on them.

You should read some books on probability. I suggest this one: http://wmbriggs.com/...aw_averages.pdf

[Kimberly]

You can always say, "if you bet given an infinite amount of tries, you'll win eventually". But I don't think what you're proposing is sensible. You can bet 20 times and still lose each time - just because you lost 19 times isn't a guarantee that you'll win the 20th time. The strategy you've proposed just sounds like a really good way to go bankrupt.

 

But I could be wrong, math was never my strong point. Please correct me if that's not the case.

 

EDIT: oh, hedgehog beat me to it.

 

EDITEDIT: I said something derpy and clarified, sorry.

[jackjonson]

that was probably staged to get people to go stake them, retards see people winning big and think that they can somehow profit against the odds flower gaming.

odds are in favor of the host, but if you have a big enough cash stack you can bet say... 1m on a color and if you lose, bet 2m on the same color and if you lose bet 4m on the same color. eventually odd's will favor you and you will walk away with your all the money you bet +1mill. if you have a lot of cash, you can start off bigger and bet say 10m and will eventually walk off with 10m. if you follow flower games, people do get 10+ streaks, and if you see this you should start your betting on them.

 

there's a reason casinos do not ban people using the martingale system...

[chenw]

That in Gambling is called Gambler's Fallacy, by using a misunderstanding of probability to convince oneself that s/he 'will win eventually'.

 

There is a reason why there is a phrase called 'The House always wins', in that if you bet an infinite number of times, the outcome will always be in House's favor, never in yours.

 

I'll take an example, the chances of losing 10 coil flips is 1/(2^10), or 1/1024, an unlikely event. Suppose you actually lost 9 of those flips, does it means you, on your next flip, will win, because you should only have a minute chance of losing 10 coin flips in a row.

 

Gambler's Fallacy states, yes, my 10th coin flip will be my lucky one.

 

Probability will tell you the actual correct answer: it is still 50:50. The previous 9 (or 999,999) coin flips have absolutely no impact on your 10th (or 1,000,000th) flip.