Tip.It Times Tip.It Times - 19th August 2012

[tripsis]

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[Cheat]

Haha the first article was a good troll I'll give you that basically made everything up 'pathos of distance' as if that exists as a concept!

[Jslayer999]

^ this person has [offended my sensibilities] and I guess, didn't get the point of the article. 'Pathos of distance' was a concept created by Nietzsche, a philosopher, and this is a very interesting interpretation of it. Kudos for tackling such an advanced concept, the article was a good read!

[Kimberly]

I disagree with phasing out a word simply because it's misused. We don't phase out the term lag when it's frequently used to describe FPS drops instead of actual lagging connections. The difference between these two issues is the conflict it generates. But as you pointed out in the previous paragraph, that's due to ignorance/stupidity. You don't combat stupidity by removing the things they've yet to learn, though. You continue to educate in different ways.

 

Censoring is a particularly bad idea, especially since if we go with the replacement method, we're assuming that everyone is using the term incorrectly. That's not acceptable and it's not a proper way to teach. There would be no tangible progress there.

 

When it comes to clarifying the board's own rules, I actually wouldn't mind removing the term trolling from 1.3. You pointed out the misuse of the word, and you're correct. But it would serve no purpose because whether or not it's the word "trolling" or "harassing", they can be equally misused. Applying the word trolling to that clause that covers offensive behavior communicates a clearer picture of what is okay and what isn't than simply stating "harassment."

 

As staff, if someone marks something and it violates the rules - yet not for what it was originally marked for - we take the appropriate action regardless of what the submitter thought it violated. And if it doesn't break any rules, we take no action. That's a bit of bad research there, but I just had to address it because that's a very personal issue for me and I can't help but be a little sensitive to something like that.

 

Like I said at the beginning, I think you counter stupidity and ignorance by continuing to educate. You don't make lasting progress by cracking down like some Big Brother-styled dictators. Action like that should only be made in the most dire circumstances as a (very!) short term plan so you can control the situation long enough to enact long term changes.

 

I think your article did a great job in explaining the problem with the common "troll." I just hope that what you sought to teach can be effectively communicated to those who need the lessons the most. If not, I fear that a good effort like yours might be wasted.

 

(There's so much to talk about in this week's Times, I feel like I have to wait until the discussion switches to another article before I can post more! @_@)

[Riptide Mage]

9. Leeching in Dungeoneering

With a prime market of children who purchased gold with mom’s credit card, leeching floors in Dungeoneering is their best alternative to the botting they may use for other skills. On the other hand, the very players who defend Dugneoneering’s legitimacy as a skill are the ones providing a service to someone who doesn’t want to play the mini game.

 

Is the only part of the "12 Things (Still) Wrong with RuneScape in 2012" article that I disagree with. While I can agree that many of the extremely active floor sellers may be involved in RWT I can't agree that the majority of floors are bought with RWT'd gold. In fact I would believe just the opposite, that the majority of those who buy floors do so instead of selling their GP.

[Alg]

Is the only part of the "12 Things (Still) Wrong with RuneScape in 2012" article that I disagree with. While I can agree that many of the extremely active floor sellers may be involved in RWT I can't agree that the majority of floors are bought with RWT'd gold. In fact I would believe just the opposite, that the majority of those who buy floors do so instead of selling their GP.

That section as a whole seems poorly done. Dungeoneering is a polarizing skill because of how different it is. To say that the only people who like it are the ones that are able to profit from it is beyond ridiculous. Obligatory Trope Link

[Hamtaro]

To say that the only people who like it are the ones that are able to profit from it is beyond ridiculous.

You misunderstood me. I have mentioned before that the only people who defended dung were the ones who had invested the most time into it. It would be similar to the console wars you see on internet forums. Let's say someone purchased a PS3 for $600. They may suffer from buyer's remorse for the lack of quality exclusive titles. Of course, they now feel the need to justify their purchase by demeaning PC, Xbox, and Wii gamers while praising the "glorious" PS3 for its "incredible" graphics and Blu-Ray capabilities. (inb4 console war)

 

These people with 120 dung that sell floors could be seen in a similar way. Once they have invested all the time necessary for 120, they're not going to let anyone tell them the skill just plain sucks and that chaotics will be outclassed within the next year. They're justifying their time investment by profiting off of those who hate the skill enough to not want to play it. The fact that they create the market for this is ironic, as they will defend its legitimacy as a skill to death when the very people they sell the floors to quite obviously don't feel the same way.

[Alg]

Hence the trope link, which can be applied to just about everything. In this case, people that hate dungeoneering can't seem to comprehend that people like it for what it is.

[Hamtaro]

I read the trope and I don't feel that it applies here because all I'm asking for is a simple activity bar/meter. It worked in Soul Wars and Pest Control, so there's no reason it shouldn't work here. It's not like I'm asking for the whole thing to be removed just because I don't like it. I don't doubt that some people genuinely enjoy it. It's the ones who become angry and flame you for disagreeing that try to justify their waste of time who, in reality, don't enjoy dung.

[Kimberly]

An activity bar wouldn't do anything to stop leech dging, and it would simply hurt legitimate dg'ers more as a result. If we're sitting in one spot waiting for a 5th to gt to portals because he just had to clear a gd first, or someone is lagging/dc'd and there's literally nothing else to do until that person comes back, they suffer as a result. That's not good design. Having a blanket activity bar also encourages any type of activity rather than the "right" activity. A person could spend his time making zephyrium arrows because that's the best he can smith and still be considered as productive as the person who pathed out a quarter of the dungeon. Have you ever heard the term, "Busy idiot"? That's what the skiller making pointless resources is in this case.

 

I, like you, think leech floors kill theme world dungeoneering and really hurt its mass appeal. But dungeoneering is already getting steady nerfs of difficulty over time alongside of excellent research done by dedicated groups making it easier by showing the right things to do. If you don't like it how is it on a theme world - and I don't blame you - join a clan. But don't gimp the skill in a misguided effort to save it. I suspect that you haven't explored anything beyond old world 117, and I highly encourage you to shed those old notions and join up with a group. You might soon come to sympathize with the people you feel are "too invested" to think differently about Dungeoneering. It might still be a trumped up minigame, but it can be very fun.

[Hamtaro]

Perhaps the Pest Control style activity measurement would be better. Someone has to do so much (killing, solving puzzles, opening skill doors, making potions, etc.) or will receive fewer tokens or less experience, but not be kicked for going afk for a few minutes. This would at least require them to do something more than just the puzzles that require the whole team. I also see what you mean by the "busy idiot" problem, but that would probably be more of an issue with a time-based activity bar. As it stands in Pest Control, I can often go greater than 20x the minimum requirement, but could easily stop after reaching the minimum. I would rather force someone to do something rather than let them watch Netflix for 45 minutes.

 

I actually have never ventured to world 117 or any (un)official Dungeoneering worlds to Dungeoneer, so I don't know what you mean there. I haven't Dungeoneer'd with strangers since it first came out because everyone tried to micromanage the team, go AFK, or rage quit after one death. That probably didn't help my opinion of the skill.

[Kimberly]

I would rather force someone to do something rather than let them watch Netflix for 45 minutes.

 

I just don't think Jagex has the ability to make a system so sophisticated that could make the distinction between a player making a potion for a skill door or a player at the start of the base killing all the resource spots while the rest of the team is 5+ rooms away. I still think it will enforce the wrong type of activity (doing things for the sake of being busy) but I see where you're coming from and at least the reasoning behind the suggestion is impossible to ignore.

 

I actually have never ventured to world 117 or any (un)official Dungeoneering worlds to Dungeoneer, so I don't know what you mean there. I haven't Dungeoneer'd with strangers since it first came out because everyone tried to micromanage the team, go AFK, or rage quit after one death. That probably didn't help my opinion of the skill.

 

Well I just assumed you wouldn't make such a bold statement without first going out and experiencing at least a portion of the current community. >_>' I guess the "research" for such a thing doesn't really take more than 30 seconds to log in and see a ton of spammers autotyping "Sell Blablahleechteam - #1 clan of all time!@#!" Might have just been a personal hang-up then on my part not to look past that. I'm sorry @_@

[Hamtaro]

I would rather force someone to do something rather than let them watch Netflix for 45 minutes.

 

I just don't think Jagex has the ability to make a system so sophisticated that could make the distinction between a player making a potion for a skill door or a player at the start of the base killing all the resource spots while the rest of the team is 5+ rooms away. I still think it will enforce the wrong type of activity (doing things for the sake of being busy) but I see where you're coming from and at least the reasoning behind the suggestion is impossible to ignore.

Fair enough, I see what you mean here. You raise a good point about Jagex's competency regarding such a distinction and how it could easily be circumvented. I'm sure that a better solution exists, but it would take a better mind than mine to come up with one.

 

I actually have never ventured to world 117 or any (un)official Dungeoneering worlds to Dungeoneer, so I don't know what you mean there. I haven't Dungeoneer'd with strangers since it first came out because everyone tried to micromanage the team, go AFK, or rage quit after one death. That probably didn't help my opinion of the skill.

 

Well I just assumed you wouldn't make such a bold statement without first going out and experiencing at least a portion of the current community. >_>' I guess the "research" for such a thing doesn't really take more than 30 seconds to log in and see a ton of spammers autotyping "Sell Blablahleechteam - #1 clan of all time!@#!" Might have just been a personal hang-up then on my part not to look past that. I'm sorry @_@

My research on this topic was taken from the RSOF and these forums. I haven't been playing the game much recently anyway. No worries, though.

[Mercifull]

I disagree with the comment about holiday events being a waste of development time and resources. Jagex have said that these temporary events allow them to trial out new things with the engine or experiment without affecting anything in the live game.

[Hamtaro]

If they're testing out new things with the engine, certainly we could have some new, unique quests once in a while? I'm going to have to be skeptical of Jagex's claim unless they deliver some awesome content.

[decebal]

To say that the only people who like it are the ones that are able to profit from it is beyond ridiculous.

You misunderstood me. I have mentioned before that the only people who defended dung were the ones who had invested the most time into it. It would be similar to the console wars you see on internet forums. Let's say someone purchased a PS3 for $600. They may suffer from buyer's remorse for the lack of quality exclusive titles. Of course, they now feel the need to justify their purchase by demeaning PC, Xbox, and Wii gamers while praising the "glorious" PS3 for its "incredible" graphics and Blu-Ray capabilities. (inb4 console war)

Woah, woah, woah, that hurts.... right there *puts fist to heart*

 

As for the articles themselves, I praise Crocefisso for his ability to use advanced philosophical concepts and little-known references to deter trolls and some "uninformed plebs" from posting and complaining about the sensitive topic of the article by confusing their thought processes. After saying that, I have to disagree with the notion that the word "troll" is being misused, as the word has been in incorrect usage for so long it now requires a broader definition to describe it. An older individual that uses the Internet more sparingly could also argue that your definition of "troll" is also incorrect, as it's only Internet jargon to dscribe an individual that is common on the World Wide Web.

 

For the second article, I really thought that the SOF would be in first place, however I wholly agree with the #1 and #2 choices shown. I also agree with leeching being a part of the list, but due to the fact that it is not in the spirit of the game, in my opinion, instead of the idea that it is connected to RWTing. Again, this is my personal opinion, and I can see other disagreeing with it.

 

And finally the third article (I don't read fictional articles, I can barely get myself to read fictional books), I was surprised that there was no mention of harassment female players usually get on the Internet. Then again, I never knew that Hawks was actually female, anyway :oops: . Sorry!

 

If they're testing out new things with the engine, certainly we could have some new, unique quests once in a while? I'm going to have to be skeptical of Jagex's claim unless they deliver some awesome content.

The things they test aren't "out of this world" with these events, it's more about the concepts and code behind events such as "Head to Head", or the cheese wheel race which are novel ideas that have never been implemented in Runescape and could be horribly received by the community. Let's be honest, the cheese wheel race stinked because of the dubious collisions that happened, I'm glad it was only implemented as an optional event.

[Hamtaro]

To say that the only people who like it are the ones that are able to profit from it is beyond ridiculous.

You misunderstood me. I have mentioned before that the only people who defended dung were the ones who had invested the most time into it. It would be similar to the console wars you see on internet forums. Let's say someone purchased a PS3 for $600. They may suffer from buyer's remorse for the lack of quality exclusive titles. Of course, they now feel the need to justify their purchase by demeaning PC, Xbox, and Wii gamers while praising the "glorious" PS3 for its "incredible" graphics and Blu-Ray capabilities. (inb4 console war)

Woah, woah, woah, that hurts.... right there *puts fist to heart*

 

For the second article, I really thought that the SOF would be in first place, however I wholly agree with the #1 and #2 choices shown. I also agree with leeching being a part of the list, but due to the fact that it is not in the spirit of the game, in my opinion, instead of the idea that it is connected to RWTing. Again, this is my personal opinion, and I can see other disagreeing with it.

 

If they're testing out new things with the engine, certainly we could have some new, unique quests once in a while? I'm going to have to be skeptical of Jagex's claim unless they deliver some awesome content.

The things they test aren't "out of this world" with these events, it's more about the concepts and code behind events such as "Head to Head", or the cheese wheel race which are novel ideas that have never been implemented in Runescape and could be horribly received by the community. Let's be honest, the cheese wheel race stinked because of the dubious collisions that happened, I'm glad it was only implemented as an optional event.

Just a little vidya humor to help illustrate a point :razz:.

 

Anyway, I actually agree with you about leaching not being within the spirit of the game, but I would be a hypocrite for saying that myself.

 

As for the Gielinor Games, I wouldn't want to see any of those mechanics reused. Cheese wheel was kind of fun at first until I ran the race ~250 times without ever making it all the way. I haven't felt that level of frustration since pre-patched Olaf's Quest (on release day) and the Underground Pass. If anything, Jagex needs to start emulating the older holiday events because those were actually fun. Diango's workshop, anyone?

[Hawks]

And finally the third article (I don't read fictional articles, I can barely get myself to read fictional books), I was surprised that there was no mention of harassment female players usually get on the Internet. Then again, I never knew that Hawks was actually female, anyway :oops: . Sorry!

A lot of people don't realize that. :D Yeah, that'll come up in a future article, I've got some lined up that continue in that vein.

[Crocefisso]

I disagree with phasing out a word simply because it's misused. We don't phase out the term lag when it's frequently used to describe FPS drops instead of actual lagging connections. The difference between these two issues is the conflict it generates. But as you pointed out in the previous paragraph, that's due to ignorance/stupidity. You don't combat stupidity by removing the things they've yet to learn, though. You continue to educate in different ways.

 

Censoring is a particularly bad idea, especially since if we go with the replacement method, we're assuming that everyone is using the term incorrectly. That's not acceptable and it's not a proper way to teach. There would be no tangible progress there.

 

When it comes to clarifying the board's own rules, I actually wouldn't mind removing the term trolling from 1.3. You pointed out the misuse of the word, and you're correct. But it would serve no purpose because whether or not it's the word "trolling" or "harassing", they can be equally misused. Applying the word trolling to that clause that covers offensive behavior communicates a clearer picture of what is okay and what isn't than simply stating "harassment."

 

As staff, if someone marks something and it violates the rules - yet not for what it was originally marked for - we take the appropriate action regardless of what the submitter thought it violated. And if it doesn't break any rules, we take no action. That's a bit of bad research there, but I just had to address it because that's a very personal issue for me and I can't help but be a little sensitive to something like that.

 

Like I said at the beginning, I think you counter stupidity and ignorance by continuing to educate. You don't make lasting progress by cracking down like some Big Brother-styled dictators. Action like that should only be made in the most dire circumstances as a (very!) short term plan so you can control the situation long enough to enact long term changes.

 

I think your article did a great job in explaining the problem with the common "troll." I just hope that what you sought to teach can be effectively communicated to those who need the lessons the most. If not, I fear that a good effort like yours might be wasted.

 

(There's so much to talk about in this week's Times, I feel like I have to wait until the discussion switches to another article before I can post more! @_@)

 

You have hit upon the dilemma I faced when considering the issue, Kimberly. Ideally, I would love to see people educated on how to properly discuss issues and so forth on the internet, but I could not think how it is that forum Mods such as yourself could actually educate people, and I think you seem to have implicitly recognised this by not giving specifics on how to go about this. Stickies, perhaps, though I doubt they would have a lasting impact. Other than this, out of desperation I decided that censorship would be a form of forced education which would bring about the desired effect.

 

decebal, I would be interested to hear in more detail where your interpretation on the use of 'troll' differs, as I am aware that to an extent claiming 'misuse' depends on my own experience.

[brunokiller]

As for holiday events I much prefer a small, fun event (giving away chocolate eggs to people for a rubber chicken) over a massive piece of content (last halloween, with the citadel). I rather have that effort going into perm content.

 

The gielinor games was great imo I hope they do that again or just let it stay forever as the rewards aren't cosmetic.

[decebal]

decebal, I would be interested to hear in more detail where your interpretation on the use of 'troll' differs, as I am aware that to an extent claiming 'misuse' depends on my own experience.

This is my thought process: there is no higher up that has created language and said "it is thus so". Language evolved when our brain restructured itself 200 thousand (or was it 100 thousand?) years ago, which allowed us to produce and understand language. Ever since then, language has evolved, and is also currently evolving, with new words entering the English language constantly. However, what words are officially part of the English language, and which are jargon? The way a language officially enters the English lagnuage is when it is recognized by a major dictionary publisher, such as Oxford or Webster (words such as "google" have recently been recognized like this).

 

Pulling out an old copy of Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary that I have lying around from 1988 (therefore it may be outdated), the definition of "troll" is as follows:

 

troll: 1. v.t. to sing (a song) in a loud, jolly, carefree way || to fish in (a lake, etc.) or to fish for, by drawing a line with a spoon attached behind a boat. || v.i. to fish in this way || to sing away loudly and merrily || 2. n. the act of trolling || the spoon or spoon and line used in trolling || (Br.) the reel of a fishing rod [etym. doubtful]

troll: n. (Scand. mythol.) one of the supernatural beings, formerly thought of as giants, but later as dwarves, inhabiting caves, hills etc. [O.N.]

 

Your definition of troll is not included in the above definition, nor is it in any other recognized dictionary. However, there is some merit towards the idea that your definition is correct, as the users of the language define it. That being said, because the users of the language, such as you and me, define the language in ways that are not recognized by official entities, you cannot discount the way someone uses a word, when you are not using an official definition of said word, either.

 

tl;dr: Language is defined by who uses it, which means that dictionaries can be wrong because they don't include jargon, Crocefisso may be wrong because he is not using an official definition, and the "misusers" of the word "troll" may also be wrong because of the same reason. It all depends.

[Kimberly]

Slang terms are always fluid and changing in meaning, but that doesn't mean that people can still use a word that doesn't apply to the situation. In that sense, I agree with Crocefisso that people frequently use the word troll when they simply have no other means to counter what people are saying, or if what people are saying makes them particularly upset. That is a problem, because likely those who do that end up getting warned anyway - after all, if you're calling someone a troll, isn't that sparking a negative reaction and serving no constructive purpose...aka trolling? And that's where the education aspect comes in as a moderator, although as Crocefisso also pointed out, the education mods seek at this point in the process doesn't always pan out as hoped for. There really isn't a lot of alternative there. It's where articles like Crocefisso's come into play that hopefully spread awareness to spark the community to change itself. It doesn't have to be a jubilee event like a Breast Cancer Awareness parade, but a quiet individual choice to just try to use a different term for the common troll. Things like that can make a huge impact without people really even noticing it.

 

(I realized I kind of addressed Crocefisso and decebal in one post with no distinction...sorry for the confusion @_@)

[Pinata]

Dungeoneering is a great skill and this is coming from someone who got 120 during restricted trade. I do disagree with floor selling. People say activity bar would hurt legitimate players. But looking back across all my dungeons. The only time I've been afk for longer than 1 minute is door/phone/bathroom. Stuff like that. Give the activity bar a 2 minute timer, and that would be perfect.

 

However, f2p dungeoneering would suffer. Seeing as three lvl 3 loafers are needed. But really, I don't know why that 90cb penalty still exists. So what if level 1-69 are faster in f2p than p2p. Skill goes to 120 and we have occs/warps for members.

[Platinum_Myr]

Dungeoneering is a great skill and this is coming from someone who got 120 during restricted trade. I do disagree with floor selling. People say activity bar would hurt legitimate players. But looking back across all my dungeons. The only time I've been afk for longer than 1 minute is door/phone/bathroom. Stuff like that. Give the activity bar a 2 minute timer, and that would be perfect.

 

However, f2p dungeoneering would suffer. Seeing as three lvl 3 loafers are needed. But really, I don't know why that 90cb penalty still exists. So what if level 1-69 are faster in f2p than p2p. Skill goes to 120 and we have occs/warps for members.

 

Why not make it a % activity over the whole dungeon? That might be harder to track but you could track real time like... you need to be active for more than 80% of the dungeon time. That would mean that for really short floors AFK would be bad, but for longer floors you could afk for a little bit without trouble. (And active means gathering resources or attacking monsters or something like that?)

[Pinata]

Dungeoneering is a great skill and this is coming from someone who got 120 during restricted trade. I do disagree with floor selling. People say activity bar would hurt legitimate players. But looking back across all my dungeons. The only time I've been afk for longer than 1 minute is door/phone/bathroom. Stuff like that. Give the activity bar a 2 minute timer, and that would be perfect.

 

However, f2p dungeoneering would suffer. Seeing as three lvl 3 loafers are needed. But really, I don't know why that 90cb penalty still exists. So what if level 1-69 are faster in f2p than p2p. Skill goes to 120 and we have occs/warps for members.

 

Why not make it a % activity over the whole dungeon? That might be harder to track but you could track real time like... you need to be active for more than 80% of the dungeon time. That would mean that for really short floors AFK would be bad, but for longer floors you could afk for a little bit without trouble. (And active means gathering resources or attacking monsters or something like that?)

Idk, they could make it similar to pest control. But instead of a damage limit, have an activity limit. Skilling, combat, opening doors is what will increase it, and once you reach x amount of activity you will gain xp at the end of the floor.

 

However, I would rather them deal with Castle wars. They can't add a activity bar there w/o ruining gameplay, but I just wish they would do something about the loafers. Dungeoneering is kind of selling a service. Still seems like the "wrong" way to train the skill. But that is obviously just my opinion.