Behind the Scenes - November

[Arceus]

This looks good-I'm especially looking forward to more XP for solo Dungeoneering. Hopefully this update will make it a viable option in F2P, because as it stands it's really not.

[Platinum_Myr]

That might have more to do with how high 5:5 standards are these days and how few people are really willing to teach others. The fact that a lot of the 'experts' have 120/200m isn't helping in that regard.

 

That skill is quite inaccessible if you're not already good at it. This is a bonus for those of us that play at our own pace.

 

^ This. You get instantly better when you can bind 3 items at lv100, and it is really hard to remember that you have to be aware of players without 3binds if you yourself already have them. (Let alone 4 binds from 120!)

 

Right now I have found generally 3 classes of DG player;

 

Most dg'ers I've found are either already high level and skilled and they learned when others were also learning with them, or are very low level and don't have the patience to learn the skill on their own. While there are exceptions many of these high level dgers aren't teaching lower level players how to learn to get better. This frustrates the low player because they feel that they can never catch up and are always too slow to be helpful.. High players see the low players as "unskilled" instead of "untrained"

 

 

 

Now.. if only Jagex would implement a better version of dgsweeper into the game that just permanently kept the map up and marked all key doors and who's gatestones were where..... :s

[Quyneax]

3rd bind isn't that huge at all, nor is it that hard to find good teams. But you do need to have a clan or group of friends, you can't use themed worlds or Jagex' auto-group rooms, which means that the most obvious dungeoneering resources are also the most misleading ones and are actually barely/not helpful.

 

Imo there should be the possibility to form teams and start floors in Clan Citadels to promote dungeoneering clans.

 

I don't think solo dungeoneering should be competetive xp. Considering the time and effort it takes to put a team together, the xp rate for soloing should be half of the 5:5 rate.

[the_korny]

People complaining that 5:5 DGing will suffer missed the line that it will still be the fastest method of gaining exp. So you can keep your family doctor team. As it is now, the upper echelon of teams that are full of angry efficiency experts have isolated themselves into a Catch-22 where no new individuals can join their ranks. "You got one mime emote wrong! Never DGing with you anymore."

[aerendil]

posting here ranting is inefficient, should be watching inception and dging, and teasing da noobs

 

 

 

 

trolling aside, I like the looks of this month, lots of needed updates, nd faster dging is good, as it is a very hard skill to get into without the right connections...

[Alg]

posting here ranting is inefficient, should be watching inception and dging, and teasing da noobs

I support this motion, especially in regards to Inception.

[Platinum_Myr]

I definitely support Inception!

 

3rd bind isn't that huge at all, nor is it that hard to find good teams. But you do need to have a clan or group of friends, you can't use themed worlds or Jagex' auto-group rooms, which means that the most obvious dungeoneering resources are also the most misleading ones and are actually barely/not helpful.

 

Imo there should be the possibility to form teams and start floors in Clan Citadels to promote dungeoneering clans.

 

I don't think solo dungeoneering should be competetive xp. Considering the time and effort it takes to put a team together, the xp rate for soloing should be half of the 5:5 rate.

 

I would *love* to be able to start dungeons from clan citadels.

 

My experience is that 3rd bind has enabled me to worry less about having food.. Then again I had hood before and so I couldn't tank anything without prayer. Now with primal chain (haven't had time to hunt for plate) I can do pretty well and not worry so much about having tons of food. It wasn't about decreasing floor time as much as it helped me decrease death rates :)

 

I do think that team xp should be faster *counting* time spent putting teams together... so the xp/floor. should be quite a bit higher since you don't lose time putting team together, and this allows for team to be still faster.

[Vezon Dash]

I'm happy about the dung update because it allows me to dung on my own clock without feeling like I'm wasting my time. Zaaps is just mad because he sells floors, the 120 dung prods are mad because they had to spend hundreds of hours figuring out dung, and I'm happy because I don't have to spend 400 hours learning how to dung nor do I have to put up with doing 1 hour larges for exp.

[Deletion]

I don't think solo dungeoneering should be competetive xp. Considering the time and effort it takes to put a team together, the xp rate for soloing should be half of the 5:5 rate.

 

I really can't decide if this is going to cause team dungeoneering to go to shit or not.

 

On one hand there's going to be a whole lot less people wanting to dungeoneer in a team as solo xp rates will be close to those of 5:5, but on the other hand those that do want to dungeoneer in a team will generally be those who want maximum efficiency and generally (from my experiences anyway) make better team-mates.

[Earthman]

This month is going to be fun. I absolutely love the Dungeoneering update, I've been waiting for this for a very long time. Now it's finally happening!

[ohhh]

Best BTS ever.

[Kaida23]

On one hand there's going to be a whole lot less people wanting to dungeoneer in a team as solo xp rates will be close to those of 5:5, but on the other hand those that do want to dungeoneer in a team will generally be those who want maximum efficiency and generally (from my experiences anyway) make better team-mates.

There's already a whole lot of people who don't want to DG in teams. I really don't think the increase solo rates will be that close to 5:5 rates, it's just going to make it less painful for those who do it.

[Bxpprod]

People complaining that 5:5 DGing will suffer missed the line that it will still be the fastest method of gaining exp. So you can keep your family doctor team. As it is now, the upper echelon of teams that are full of angry efficiency experts have isolated themselves into a Catch-22 where no new individuals can join their ranks. "You got one mime emote wrong! Never DGing with you anymore."

 

And you seem to thing it's the "efficiency experts" with an attitude problem.

 

Anyways, this is good, gives lower levels faster access to higher floors, also decent for the DIY types I suppose.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I personally think moving DG away from being fundamentally a team-based skill is an unfortunate step in the wrong direction.

I don't see why. The biggest complaints people have about it (arguments about whether or not it's a skill aside) are the difficulty in finding people to team with and the low solo xp rates. The best xp/hr will still be in teams of 5, they're just making it a bit easier for the rest of us.

Here's why.

 

Effective and prompt teamwork is one of the hardest skills any gamer can learn. The knowledge, the practice, and base communication skills required mean that it's not something any average Joe can read a guide on RS Wiki about and suddenly they're doing it in a few minutes. So far the disparity between XP rates for 5-teams and solos have reflected just how difficult that skill is to learn, and execute efficiently on the floor itself as well as how much time it takes to master. That doesn't only apply in RuneScape by the way; watch professional team-based gaming in just about any game, and you'll realise just how much time they spend on communication and good teamwork. It's a very real skill, which some people are better at than others, and it can be quite a technical skill in the context of something as specialist as Dungeoneering.

 

It's not really good enough to say "Well, 5-teams will have most XP anyway." They should have much more XP because completing a floor in a team of five efficiently is much more difficult than doing the same floor solo.

 

Which is why closing that gap is a wrong move.

[Alg]

Which is why closing that gap is a wrong move.

In theory, I couldn't agree more. In practice, they almost have to close it because there are few, if any, groups that are willing to teach teamwork and communication skills. It's a catch-22: you can't learn the basics without a good team, but you can't get a good team without knowing the basics (At the very least). The fact that nothing else in the game requires the same set of skills doesn't help matters.

 

There needs to be a viable option for everyone else.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I agree some DG clans have shot themselves in the foot in that regard, yes, and you know as much as any long-term user how much that issue has been a frustration to myself and others on this board over the years. Unfortunately, when any 'teaching clan' has popped up as the middle man to fill that gap, they've all got a bit dizzy with their own success and gone "pro" anyway, and then systematically closed their ranks off to newcomers wanting to learn.

[Platinum_Myr]

Alg and Ginger Warrior are both right about different things...

 

effective team dungeoneering is incredibly difficult and hard to teach because it requires precision in communication, and listening. It requires everyone knowing what to do when without overlap, and keeping track of doors/gates plus knowing who is most efficient at what. Many players simply don't understand so they forget even basic things like runes, and they don't use gates to maximum ability, or they stand around at doors waiting instead of doing gd's (partially this requires good team management of the group gate)

 

I think that there is a lot to say for some people who refuse to learn just as much as people who haven't been taught. We don't really have much in the way of teaching (there are some great clans though!)

 

I think also Quyneax is right.. the traditionally accepted places to get teams in fact don't help and often make dungeons worse. So the easiest resources to access are really bad for getting people to learn proper efficient dungeons.

[Gewoon Jop]

I am tempted more and more to make (Again) a diy account, we'll see for how long I can hold the temptation.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I think also Quyneax is right.. the traditionally accepted places to get teams in fact don't help and often make dungeons worse. So the easiest resources to access are really bad for getting people to learn proper efficient dungeons.

That isn't a new problem. It featured in the Tip.It Times over two years ago and hasn't really been solved, by Jagex or by players collectively, since.

[Platinum_Myr]

Jagex mentioned the idea of a minigame request thing maybe in the lobby.. But it's actually really difficult to implement with all the right options and it is a huge project.

 

Players create unofficial worlds, but that only works as long as everyone follows it. Either way, what happens is below-average players assume they can go to high-skill worlds and effectively it crashes the skill level meaning high-lvl players move to a new world, or as they have, to clan/friend chats.

[aspeeder]

I personally think moving DG away from being fundamentally a team-based skill is an unfortunate step in the wrong direction.

I don't see why. The biggest complaints people have about it (arguments about whether or not it's a skill aside) are the difficulty in finding people to team with and the low solo xp rates. The best xp/hr will still be in teams of 5, they're just making it a bit easier for the rest of us.

Here's why.

 

Effective and prompt teamwork is one of the hardest skills any gamer can learn. The knowledge, the practice, and base communication skills required mean that it's not something any average Joe can read a guide on RS Wiki about and suddenly they're doing it in a few minutes. So far the disparity between XP rates for 5-teams and solos have reflected just how difficult that skill is to learn, and execute efficiently on the floor itself as well as how much time it takes to master. That doesn't only apply in RuneScape by the way; watch professional team-based gaming in just about any game, and you'll realise just how much time they spend on communication and good teamwork. It's a very real skill, which some people are better at than others, and it can be quite a technical skill in the context of something as specialist as Dungeoneering.

 

It's not really good enough to say "Well, 5-teams will have most XP anyway." They should have much more XP because completing a floor in a team of five efficiently is much more difficult than doing the same floor solo.

 

Which is why closing that gap is a wrong move.

My problem with a lot of this is that communication when you're not actually right with the person requires coordination, and usually resources outside of just the game. Lots of more pro clans have skype set up, may require a microphone (Not sure never been a part of them) and may have certain apps to help that not everyone has access to. I agree that communication is an invaluable skill in life, in many ways it's probably the most important skill you will ever need to succeed. I just do not agree that to be somewhat successful requires people to have all of the bells and whistles needed by pro gaming teams. I should not have to learn to operate on the same level as people who are paid to game to get decent exp per hour on an account which could otherwise thrive on its own without extraordinary coordination with other players.

[Ginger_Warrior]

This "bells and whistles" you're talking about consist of a few downloads which are completely free, a microphone/headphone set which needn't cost more than $10, and a willingness to learn.

 

So, having punched through that excuse, what you're really saying is that people who are better at Dungeoneering as a team shouldn't actually be rewarded for being better because, basically, you don't want to. I'm sure plenty of people will forgive me for thinking that argument holds very little weight.

 

Argue all you want that solo DG should have better XP rates. I'd probably agree with you. Don't argue that this should be accomplished by nerfing the reward disparity between those who don't want to try doing it in a team and those who do, as the skill was designed for.

[Scherzo]

Also, there's not really hard to communicate well without programs like skype. Actually, when floors go fast enough, I find it a lot easier to use the ingame chat for communication, because it's so short and consise, and because ther'es no problem with having to repeat stuff if it wasn't catched the first time.

 

The only program used a lot in my clan (DGS) is a map-saving tool, which allows you to view the map just a little bit more, but it's still something you can do fine without.

 

I'd have to agree though, that it's a hard step up from not doing dg to doing well executed 5-man floors, mainly because there isn't anything in the gap between, where people can be taught the basics very well. But a clan dedicated for middle-levelled players would also go out of order quite fast, because people get "too good" for that clan, leaving it with too few people. (I remember back in the days, there were some attempts at mid level pc clans, and afaik, that never went well)

 

But even though it's hard, I think anyone can get into team dg if they give it a try. There exists guides, ranging from the very basics, to more advanced techniques, and even the high levelled dg community knows about the importance of fresh blood, so as long as you're positive, you can get into it.

[Tim]

I'm more excited for the Ariane quests. Runescape lore's always been an interesting thing for me :3

 

(Provided I can do it without there being any combat exp rewards like Ozan)

[aspeeder]

This "bells and whistles" you're talking about consist of a few downloads which are completely free, a microphone/headphone set which needn't cost more than $10, and a willingness to learn.

 

So, having punched through that excuse, what you're really saying is that people who are better at Dungeoneering as a team shouldn't actually be rewarded for being better because, basically, you don't want to. I'm sure plenty of people will forgive me for thinking that argument holds very little weight.

 

Argue all you want that solo DG should have better XP rates. I'd probably agree with you. Don't argue that this should be accomplished by nerfing the reward disparity between those who don't want to try doing it in a team and those who do, as the skill was designed for.

Skype and the headset aside, not everyone in the rs community knows about apps like DGSweeper and probably wouldn't know where to look (I've talked to people who didn't know what the rsof was). And a lot of what constitutes "pro" communities is homogeny of strategy and communication, which if you don't know where to start it's very hard to break into and research. I'm not saying JaGeX should cater to these players at the complete detriment of the metagame community, but they're not instituting an XP nerf for team DG (As far as we know anyway), and your complaint of "exp disparity" has no real effect on the level you'll get doing the method you already are.

 

Argue all you want that solo DG should have better XP rates. I'd probably agree with you. Don't argue that this should be accomplished by nerfing the reward disparity between those who don't want to try doing it in a team and those who do, as the skill was designed for.

 

This part intrigues me the most, because the only way to increase solo xp rates without raising the reward disparity would be to increase DG exp rates across the board, which I suppose would make it less of a pain for everyone involved but then we'll have a host of people complaining that "they got DG the hard way" and so on. How would you suggest we help soloers without damaging the DG teams?

 

EDIT: To clarify a point I'm not sure I got across properly, I never said that

people who are better at Dungeoneering as a team shouldn't actually be rewarded for being better.

They are being rewarded, they will unquestionably still have the highest rate of exp. What you're complaining about is that the reward isn't so much better than everyone else. To me that's a bit childish, you're still getting returns on your investment.