Behind the Scenes - November

[Arceus]

I think you're underestimating the social aspect of the skill. Even if you're getting 350k xp/hr solo, it's going to be very easy to get burnt out solo'ing. It will feel more like grinding. In other words, without a team to keep you company and interact with, DG becomes a lot less fun. Teams will still exist because a) they're better xp/hr and b) they're more fun.

You're talking about Runescape here. If you don't enjoy grinding and solo skilling you would have quit this game the moment one of your skills reached level 30.

It's true that I do like grinding and solo skilling, but training with a team of nice people is (in my eyes) even more fun! ^_^

 

It...reaallllyyy...depends on the people you're with. Trust me.

Oh, you don't need to remind me. Trust me.

[Gwasha]

In response to the dung. update

 

A) It woudl be different if you could actually count on other members of the community being helpfull isntead of pricks

B) Why are people assuming team exp is going to go up? Only solo exp should be going up.

C) Runescape has NEVER had team based skills so forcing one on people and expecting it to be welcomed was just silly, mainly b/c of point A

 

A) This is why many choose to join clans and dg only with friends, both legitimate options. For forms of help, there are hundreds of guides out there (both good and bad) that explain the basics. As soon as you know that, a lot of the skill involved comes from practice.

B) This was never implied. Unless of course someone said 4:4 teams will be best because they may get some xp boost and those floors aren't much slower then 5:5's. We'll have to wait and see for that.

C) The team based aspect is why Dungeoneering is so important. It is the ONLY skill in the game that requires skill to be good at. After all, we are playing a MMORPG. I would think that having more team based content is important, not detrimental. I wish there were more skills and minigames like dungeoneering in the game, not stuff where I click monotomously for hours on end.

[Kimberly]

I agree that most of the RS population does not wish to put in the effort into learning "elite" 5:5s. However, if what you're saying is true-- that as a result of that disinterest, elite 5:5s will die out-- then elite 5:5s would already be dead by now.

 

Not long enough, is why. When this generation of "meta" players retire, if there is no one to take their place (go on and ask how hard it is to find researchers) they will start the "dying out" process. If you want to see a similar trend, look at the fansite clan world. The process is one that takes a very long time, but the trend this subsection of the community is taking is slowly dying out.

 

Which actually makes me wonder if the decision to promote the exp/hr so much for solo and as a result removing the dependency (and thus its lifespan) of education was their intention. After all, that's exactly what they did to the fansite clan world. And there is no dispute there that it is dead/dying. But this process took 6 years before it was that bad.

[Randox]

I've only ever found one person who I could dunge with for extended periods of time, and unfortunately I never hear form them anymore. The key to our success together was Skype. There was no limit on how long we could talk to each other (we had 5+ hour conversations multiple times), and neither of us wanted to be in a rushed frenzy. We'd get our goal when we got it, and we didn't sit back, but there was no fire under our butts either. We also shared a common hatred of the skill itself, and we did it as a pair to egg each other on, because neither of us would have gotten chaotics without the other.

 

My problem with most people is that training dungeoneering frustrates me. I don't want to be there, and after an hour or two it will really start to show against most people. As a result, if I team, I prefer a duo, and only with people I know that I am not going to get frustrated with (there are actually two other people I know for sure I could dunge with, but they vastly out level me), and I have no cause to train the skill.

[NukeMarine]

Looks like a great month.

 

Tears of Guthix - I would have prefered a tiered increase in xp as player's lowest skill passes a milestone (50, 55, 60, 65, etc.) though this is just as good.

 

Quests - I get the nostalgia vibe, but seriously, I never replayed an old quest and I'm guessing most other players have not except for their novelty accounts needs. If Jagex is improving these quests for new players, then that's a good thing in my book.

 

Dungeoneering - Many of the complaints here only compare 1:1 and 5:5. This update is also going to help 2:2, 3:3 and 4:4 which is a great thing. I don't see it killing floor leeching as that ships sailed, but maybe less players will feel the need to pay. Team aspect will still be the best XP, but guys that don't care about having a permanent team or the casual player can still invest in skilling Dng.

 

EoC Tutorial - Sounds good. I haven't played Beta enough, but the number spamming was still high.

[Travis D]

If only they would make a drop-x :(

 

Other than that, this looks like one of the better bts of the last few.

 

And it's about time they reworked tears of guthix, I haven't done that in a long time even though its free xp.

[Tim]

I have a lot of friends who hate dg because they can't find teams (they are lower lvl) so they can't catch up to me and do good floors

Peter and I are working on that. ;).

 

Does it count Skillers? ;__;

 

Speaking of which, has DG been changed so that you receive a massive XP penalty if there's a big Combat level difference now? If so, seriously dick move jagex. :|

[Ginger_Warrior]

I agree that most of the RS population does not wish to put in the effort into learning "elite" 5:5s. However, if what you're saying is true-- that as a result of that disinterest, elite 5:5s will die out-- then elite 5:5s would already be dead by now.

 

Not long enough, is why. When this generation of "meta" players retire, if there is no one to take their place (go on and ask how hard it is to find researchers) they will start the "dying out" process. If you want to see a similar trend, look at the fansite clan world. The process is one that takes a very long time, but the trend this subsection of the community is taking is slowly dying out.

Is another factor simply that, if you're the kind of person that's good at teaching people and you'd enjoy teaching people about Dungeoneering and how to do it effectively, there simply isn't any reward in-game for doing so and no way for other people in the clan to reimburse you for your efforts? You could easily empathise with someone who might want to train a new "meta" generation, but doesn't want to because they'd rather be doing the floors themselves with the fellow clan members they've known for months, years on end.

 

If team DGing is an example of emergent gameplay, then it stands to reason that Jagex won't necessarily reward everyone involved. But even on an interpersonal level, if you're a patient and understanding person who cares about the future of the skill, no-one's going to thank you for it except the ones you're training, and it's not going to get you that next chaotic any time soon.

[Den]

Looks like a good month overall. SOme things (like the quests) I look forward to. :P

[old_vuz]

It's about time they upped solo dunge xp. Too bad it was after I soloed 99....

[Steph]

I have a lot of friends who hate dg because they can't find teams (they are lower lvl) so they can't catch up to me and do good floors

Peter and I are working on that. ;).

 

Does it count Skillers? ;__;

 

Speaking of which, has DG been changed so that you receive a massive XP penalty if there's a big Combat level difference now? If so, seriously dick move jagex. :-|

 

It's your choice to limit yourself as a skiller, and I'm not sure what lead you to believe there is a large xp penalty. (There has always been a increased penalty on DEATHS for combat differences, if that's what you're referring to)

[Plugpoint]

About the DG update: it took me 4-5 months to get a rapier because people on W32 are so unbearably frustrating that they made me not want to train the skill. If you've not DGed on W32/W114 in a while then you can't really complain. You're in an environment where you can enjoy the skill with your friends, or at least decent DGers, without being hampered with these utter morons who spend half the floor looking for a farming patch rather than unlocking doors so that they can make one combat potion for themselves before the boss fight. I average ~50k xp/hr on these worlds because the quickest floor I've done on them is about 35-40 minutes. The whole team runs down the same path and then accuses me of sneaking off on a different path to skill or w/e when I run off on my own to open more doors. It's infuriating. Would've gotten that chaotic months before if I could've soloed it at a decent xp rate.

 

I'm really looking forward to this month's updates, aside from the quest remake and the usual SOF/Solomon's shite it all looks great.

[Thus]

DG is a terrible skill. Finally got 120 on one of my accounts after months of frustration. I am glad they are updating the xp/h.

 

DG is one of those weird skills that you can't learn on your own. And with all the elitist idiots keeping normal players from returning things will die out. And I'm not talking about people clearing every room, or skilling, or idling, or whatever as being the "normal players". I'm talking about people who legitimately know how to DG yet people rage at them because they took 15 seconds to do something instead of 10, so they quit DG forever or solo it.

 

It's the insufferable elitist pieces of shit who are hurting the skill. I can see why more people would want to solo. And people are giving reasons like "DG is supposed to be social" or "how will they learn to 5:5". Well surprise, it's not working already. DG is perhaps the most ANTIsocial skill, with people using their ignore lists and notes as lists of people to not DG with. The reason why I stress anti is because it's not because you simply don't talk like when doing afk skills, people start hating other people because of this.

[Leik]

DG is a terrible skill. Finally got 120 on one of my accounts after months of frustration. I am glad they are updating the xp/h.

 

DG is one of those weird skills that you can't learn on your own. And with all the elitist idiots keeping normal players from returning things will die out. And I'm not talking about people clearing every room, or skilling, or idling, or whatever as being the "normal players". I'm talking about people who legitimately know how to DG yet people rage at them because they took 15 seconds to do something instead of 10, so they quit DG forever or solo it.

 

It's the insufferable elitist pieces of shit who are hurting the skill. I can see why more people would want to solo. And people are giving reasons like "DG is supposed to be social" or "how will they learn to 5:5". Well surprise, it's not working already. DG is perhaps the most ANTIsocial skill, with people using their ignore lists and notes as lists of people to not DG with. The reason why I stress anti is because it's not because you simply don't talk like when doing afk skills, people start hating other people because of this.

 

I hate exaggerations like this. Who have you been DGing with? The only way you could get that kind of reactions is if you somehow managed to find your way into a top speedfloor team. If you would look around for clans or groups (DGS, EoE, Dung Mates, etc), you would see they're all more than willing to help you learn how to DG. You just have to actually ask them for constructive criticism.

 

EDIT: Yes there are definitely cases of people yelling at you for making mistakes, but not nearly all of them. Not even close.

[Scherzo]

DG is a terrible skill. Finally got 120 on one of my accounts after months of frustration. I am glad they are updating the xp/h.

 

DG is one of those weird skills that you can't learn on your own. And with all the elitist idiots keeping normal players from returning things will die out. And I'm not talking about people clearing every room, or skilling, or whatever as being the "normal players". I'm talking about people who legitimately know how to DG yet people rage at them because they took 15 seconds to do something instead of 10, so they quit DG forever or solo it.

 

It's the insufferable elitist pieces of shit who are hurting the skill. I can see why more people would want to solo. And people are giving reasons like "DG is supposed to be social" or "how will they learn to 5:5". Well surprise, it's not working already. DG is perhaps the most ANTIsocial skill, with people using their ignore lists and notes as lists of people to not DG with. The reason why I stress anti is because it's not because you simply don't talk like when doing afk skills, people start hating other people because of this.

 

I think persons are different, with different personalities, and different ways to behave against others. There's absolutely people who are way to harsh with others within the dg community, as there's everywhere.

 

The reason I got into dg, was because of people genuinely interested in teaching dg, and learning how to become better themselves. When I've done (and still do) mistakes, I've usually had them pointed out, so that I can learn from them, but I've not been flamed for those mistakes, because everyone knows that we all start out as in-experienced.

 

I've had people yell at me for things where It'd be enough to just point something out, but It's not the community as a whole that is like this, but rather individuals who (in my opinion wrongfully) believe that yelling at people will force them to improve.

 

I think it's terrible that the dg commnunity has a word for being just a bunch of ragers who aren't interested in letting fresh people join, and it's not at all my experience as a whole, but I hope that that's something we can work with as well - trying to be friendly and inclusive to others.

 

On the other side, I hope that the "regular" mass of rs, those not in touch with this community would try to not just paint a stereotype on us, but rather look at us as a group of individuals, who all have their good and bad days. We're not one homogenous group.

[Alg]

It's the kind of skill where those bad experiences will turn someone off of it completely, though, regardless of whether it's from a bad experience with a teacher (which is part of why I haven't DGed much this year) or from someone's first 5:5 experience being in one of those terrible public worlds (hell of a first impression). It doesn't help that many prospective students just want to get their rapiers and get out; they want to learn just enough to get them through the skill quickly, their teachers want them to learn enough to DG with them to 120.

[Scherzo]

It's the kind of skill where those bad experiences will turn someone off of it completely, though, regardless of whether it's from a bad experience with a teacher (which is part of why I haven't DGed much this year) or from someone's first 5:5 experience being in one of those terrible public worlds (hell of a first impression). It doesn't help that many prospective students just want to get their rapiers and get out; they want to learn just enough to get them through the skill quickly, their teachers want them to learn enough to DG with them to 120.

 

I can't think to wonder if a skill reward that required more than just 2m xp to get would be benefictial to the skill. If you needed, say 20m xp for a semi-trivial boost (lets say a possibility to add a +2 boost in str on some of your equipment), would increase the minimum time needed to be invested into dg let more people get a good taste of it.

 

The more probable thing would be people raging about it, because going through the first 10m before you get the hang of it would be just as bad as it is today. I mean, people complain enough about getting their rapiers.

[Sumpta]

Oh god, yes, thank you Jagex.

 

I understand that those who love DG as a social skill are worried about the update and feel that it may threaten the one skill that's not a grind fest, requires a learning curve etc. But the fact remains that DGing is built more like a minigame than a skill and that it hampers the maxing goals of many a player. I myself am not a team player in RS. I get to work in teams all day long, so when I'm chilling in front of the TV, I like to skill and play RS on my own. DG has been my bane from the start, much as I loved the concept. Teams do and should get better xp than solo, but the solo xp has to at least be acceptable for players such as myself. Up until now, it has been abysmal. DG is one of the reasons why I quit two years ago.

 

I'm not convinced the changes will be detrimental to the skill either. It'll allow players to get their stats up to a level that makes them good candidates for teams. A good few of the solo'ers who didn't want to touch the skill until now, may join teams and learn the ropes of teaming after reaching 99, e.g. It may bring in new players. If they just double the xp, teams are still worth considering for better xp. Considering the long way to 120, I think many will look into it. Also, the changes will make smaller teams worth it as well, something nobody could possible be against.

 

ETA: part of my joy is undoubtedly founded in the fact that for once, I get to enjoy the change in a skill BEFORE having it maxed, instead of seeing it made easier after I've already put in all the effort :wink:.

[Urza285]

I suppose I think jagex has found their medium in dungeoneering. Ultimately the skill has to have its "mini-game" style to it because exploring dungeons, in games at least, has always had a group theme and relied on others performing different tasks.

[Ginger_Warrior]

It's the insufferable elitist pieces of shit who are hurting the skill. I can see why more people would want to solo. And people are giving reasons like "DG is supposed to be social" or "how will they learn to 5:5". Well surprise, it's not working already. DG is perhaps the most ANTIsocial skill, with people using their ignore lists and notes as lists of people to not DG with. The reason why I stress anti is because it's not because you simply don't talk like when doing afk skills, people start hating other people because of this.

Isn't that a true reflection on life though?

 

Whatever jobs we do, almost all of us will end up working in teams of some description. Most people we'll like, some people we won't like. The beauty about RuneScape is that if you don't want to spend time with people who get on your back, you don't have to. Just spend time with the people you do like, and you'll find DG is a much more pleasurable experience. Believe me, you won't have that luxury in the real world... you work with "pieces of shit" whether you like it or not.

 

Another point I'd like to make about people being [bleep]s in Dungeoneering. It happens a lot more with keyers than anyone else. Keying is an incredible stressful task, especially when you haven't been doing it for very long. It's very algorithmic, which makes it hard to remember on-the-spot, it features a lot of line management, which is incredible difficult itself, and there's also a lot of pressure on you because it's not just you benefiting (or suffering) from your own performance; four other people have a vested interest too, so you have to manage their expectations as well. In those circumstances, some people lose their cool under pressure. Just like a quarterback in American Football will occasionally trade a few words with a wide receiver, keyers are slightly impatient with other members on their team too. It doesn't make it OK, but it does make it understandable, and if the people in the team make an effort to be friends outside of DG, it feels a lot more "human" and you won't take it so personally.

 

That's really why clans are so important. They're not just a loose collection of people who DG in the same way. They're meant to be a community of themselves for people to make friends in, who they will then DG with because they work well with each other, and will see each other as people with feelings and ambitions just like them, rather than "just another player" on a computer screen.

[Kimberly]

Is another factor simply that, if you're the kind of person that's good at teaching people and you'd enjoy teaching people about Dungeoneering and how to do it effectively, there simply isn't any reward in-game for doing so and no way for other people in the clan to reimburse you for your efforts? You could easily empathise with someone who might want to train a new "meta" generation, but doesn't want to because they'd rather be doing the floors themselves with the fellow clan members they've known for months, years on end.

 

If team DGing is an example of emergent gameplay, then it stands to reason that Jagex won't necessarily reward everyone involved. But even on an interpersonal level, if you're a patient and understanding person who cares about the future of the skill, no-one's going to thank you for it except the ones you're training, and it's not going to get you that next chaotic any time soon.

 

Well, you're mentioning enjoyment. They could get enough enjoyment out of the activity and the structures that go with it and allow it to thrive (typically goes hand-in-hand with leading a clan about that). The teaching becomes secondary to the main activity of simply dg'ing. Most of the teachers in clans for aren't actual teachers -- they're experts in the area, and they share their knowledge, but they don't always know how to effectively convey it. Hell that's where a lot of the animosity towards DGS exists. They're amazing experts but teaching well to everyone, rather than just those with similar personality types to them, is not their strong point. (Not saying it it has to be, just making an observation.)

 

That said about enjoyment, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean when you say Jagex doesn't need to reward people. I guess you could say the "reward" for getting better at DG was astronomically increased xp/hr rates. However, if they're removing the magnitude of that reward, doesn't that just reinforce the fact that people would eventually stop feeding into that cycle of growth for DG? It seems like we're both agreeing that it's collectively lowering the bar over time and killing it.

[Loyal]

I don't think the dg xp will be 350k for most people, just for people with 120 dg + high floors. :?

[Stev]

I don't think the dg xp will be 350k for most people, just for people with 120 dg + high floors. :?

If Jagex employees can manage 350K an hour I'm sure any nub could. :P.

[Ginger_Warrior]

That said about enjoyment, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean when you say Jagex doesn't need to reward people. I guess you could say the "reward" for getting better at DG was astronomically increased xp/hr rates. However, if they're removing the magnitude of that reward, doesn't that just reinforce the fact that people would eventually stop feeding into that cycle of growth for DG? It seems like we're both agreeing that it's collectively lowering the bar over time and killing it.

I meant that in cases of emergent gameplay, it's very hard for Jagex to ensure that everyone in the process receives some kind of in-game reward for their efforts, since emergent gameplay by definition cannot have been planned by Jagex. Certainly, if what we're reading into this BTS blurb is true--and it is only a blurb, very skimp on detail--that the gap in XP rates between 5:5 and solo dungeoneering will close significantly, then there'll be less incentive for certain clans to teach new people about how team dungeoneering works, and as a consequence, that cycle will slow down gradually, eventually leading to the death of DG as we know it. We can completely agree there.

[Platinum_Myr]

Ginger, I disagree. I think that there will be possibly an increase in enjoyment of the skill as people can more easily solo or small teams. I find that right now people will sit and wait for 30-45 minutes just to get a 5th, when they could do a trio med or a 4x large and be done well before. They have it ingrained that it isn't worth doing not 5:5s (which usually is true..) I am hoping that it increases my abillty to convince people to duo so I can teach. Also, I find that people tend to enjoy it more as they get higher up, so I think that it might open up more chances for people to learn at their own pace.