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Behind the Scenes - November


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#61
ohhh
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#62
Kaida23
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On one hand there's going to be a whole lot less people wanting to dungeoneer in a team as solo xp rates will be close to those of 5:5, but on the other hand those that do want to dungeoneer in a team will generally be those who want maximum efficiency and generally (from my experiences anyway) make better team-mates.

There's already a whole lot of people who don't want to DG in teams. I really don't think the increase solo rates will be that close to 5:5 rates, it's just going to make it less painful for those who do it.

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#63
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People complaining that 5:5 DGing will suffer missed the line that it will still be the fastest method of gaining exp. So you can keep your family doctor team. As it is now, the upper echelon of teams that are full of angry efficiency experts have isolated themselves into a Catch-22 where no new individuals can join their ranks. "You got one mime emote wrong! Never DGing with you anymore."


And you seem to thing it's the "efficiency experts" with an attitude problem.

Anyways, this is good, gives lower levels faster access to higher floors, also decent for the DIY types I suppose.
 

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#64
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I personally think moving DG away from being fundamentally a team-based skill is an unfortunate step in the wrong direction.

I don't see why. The biggest complaints people have about it (arguments about whether or not it's a skill aside) are the difficulty in finding people to team with and the low solo xp rates. The best xp/hr will still be in teams of 5, they're just making it a bit easier for the rest of us.

Here's why.

Effective and prompt teamwork is one of the hardest skills any gamer can learn. The knowledge, the practice, and base communication skills required mean that it's not something any average Joe can read a guide on RS Wiki about and suddenly they're doing it in a few minutes. So far the disparity between XP rates for 5-teams and solos have reflected just how difficult that skill is to learn, and execute efficiently on the floor itself as well as how much time it takes to master. That doesn't only apply in RuneScape by the way; watch professional team-based gaming in just about any game, and you'll realise just how much time they spend on communication and good teamwork. It's a very real skill, which some people are better at than others, and it can be quite a technical skill in the context of something as specialist as Dungeoneering.

It's not really good enough to say "Well, 5-teams will have most XP anyway." They should have much more XP because completing a floor in a team of five efficiently is much more difficult than doing the same floor solo.

Which is why closing that gap is a wrong move.

#65
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Which is why closing that gap is a wrong move.

In theory, I couldn't agree more. In practice, they almost have to close it because there are few, if any, groups that are willing to teach teamwork and communication skills. It's a catch-22: you can't learn the basics without a good team, but you can't get a good team without knowing the basics (At the very least). The fact that nothing else in the game requires the same set of skills doesn't help matters.

There needs to be a viable option for everyone else.

#66
Ginger_Warrior
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I agree some DG clans have shot themselves in the foot in that regard, yes, and you know as much as any long-term user how much that issue has been a frustration to myself and others on this board over the years. Unfortunately, when any 'teaching clan' has popped up as the middle man to fill that gap, they've all got a bit dizzy with their own success and gone "pro" anyway, and then systematically closed their ranks off to newcomers wanting to learn.

#67
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Alg and Ginger Warrior are both right about different things...

effective team dungeoneering is incredibly difficult and hard to teach because it requires precision in communication, and listening. It requires everyone knowing what to do when without overlap, and keeping track of doors/gates plus knowing who is most efficient at what. Many players simply don't understand so they forget even basic things like runes, and they don't use gates to maximum ability, or they stand around at doors waiting instead of doing gd's (partially this requires good team management of the group gate)

I think that there is a lot to say for some people who refuse to learn just as much as people who haven't been taught. We don't really have much in the way of teaching (there are some great clans though!)

I think also Quyneax is right.. the traditionally accepted places to get teams in fact don't help and often make dungeons worse. So the easiest resources to access are really bad for getting people to learn proper efficient dungeons.

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#68
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I am tempted more and more to make (Again) a diy account, we'll see for how long I can hold the temptation.

#69
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I think also Quyneax is right.. the traditionally accepted places to get teams in fact don't help and often make dungeons worse. So the easiest resources to access are really bad for getting people to learn proper efficient dungeons.

That isn't a new problem. It featured in the Tip.It Times over two years ago and hasn't really been solved, by Jagex or by players collectively, since.

#70
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Jagex mentioned the idea of a minigame request thing maybe in the lobby.. But it's actually really difficult to implement with all the right options and it is a huge project.

Players create unofficial worlds, but that only works as long as everyone follows it. Either way, what happens is below-average players assume they can go to high-skill worlds and effectively it crashes the skill level meaning high-lvl players move to a new world, or as they have, to clan/friend chats.

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#71
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I personally think moving DG away from being fundamentally a team-based skill is an unfortunate step in the wrong direction.

I don't see why. The biggest complaints people have about it (arguments about whether or not it's a skill aside) are the difficulty in finding people to team with and the low solo xp rates. The best xp/hr will still be in teams of 5, they're just making it a bit easier for the rest of us.

Here's why.

Effective and prompt teamwork is one of the hardest skills any gamer can learn. The knowledge, the practice, and base communication skills required mean that it's not something any average Joe can read a guide on RS Wiki about and suddenly they're doing it in a few minutes. So far the disparity between XP rates for 5-teams and solos have reflected just how difficult that skill is to learn, and execute efficiently on the floor itself as well as how much time it takes to master. That doesn't only apply in RuneScape by the way; watch professional team-based gaming in just about any game, and you'll realise just how much time they spend on communication and good teamwork. It's a very real skill, which some people are better at than others, and it can be quite a technical skill in the context of something as specialist as Dungeoneering.

It's not really good enough to say "Well, 5-teams will have most XP anyway." They should have much more XP because completing a floor in a team of five efficiently is much more difficult than doing the same floor solo.

Which is why closing that gap is a wrong move.

My problem with a lot of this is that communication when you're not actually right with the person requires coordination, and usually resources outside of just the game. Lots of more pro clans have skype set up, may require a microphone (Not sure never been a part of them) and may have certain apps to help that not everyone has access to. I agree that communication is an invaluable skill in life, in many ways it's probably the most important skill you will ever need to succeed. I just do not agree that to be somewhat successful requires people to have all of the bells and whistles needed by pro gaming teams. I should not have to learn to operate on the same level as people who are paid to game to get decent exp per hour on an account which could otherwise thrive on its own without extraordinary coordination with other players.

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#72
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This "bells and whistles" you're talking about consist of a few downloads which are completely free, a microphone/headphone set which needn't cost more than $10, and a willingness to learn.

So, having punched through that excuse, what you're really saying is that people who are better at Dungeoneering as a team shouldn't actually be rewarded for being better because, basically, you don't want to. I'm sure plenty of people will forgive me for thinking that argument holds very little weight.

Argue all you want that solo DG should have better XP rates. I'd probably agree with you. Don't argue that this should be accomplished by nerfing the reward disparity between those who don't want to try doing it in a team and those who do, as the skill was designed for.

#73
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Also, there's not really hard to communicate well without programs like skype. Actually, when floors go fast enough, I find it a lot easier to use the ingame chat for communication, because it's so short and consise, and because ther'es no problem with having to repeat stuff if it wasn't catched the first time.

The only program used a lot in my clan (DGS) is a map-saving tool, which allows you to view the map just a little bit more, but it's still something you can do fine without.

I'd have to agree though, that it's a hard step up from not doing dg to doing well executed 5-man floors, mainly because there isn't anything in the gap between, where people can be taught the basics very well. But a clan dedicated for middle-levelled players would also go out of order quite fast, because people get "too good" for that clan, leaving it with too few people. (I remember back in the days, there were some attempts at mid level pc clans, and afaik, that never went well)

But even though it's hard, I think anyone can get into team dg if they give it a try. There exists guides, ranging from the very basics, to more advanced techniques, and even the high levelled dg community knows about the importance of fresh blood, so as long as you're positive, you can get into it.

#74
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I'm more excited for the Ariane quests. Runescape lore's always been an interesting thing for me :3

(Provided I can do it without there being any combat exp rewards like Ozan)

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#75
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This "bells and whistles" you're talking about consist of a few downloads which are completely free, a microphone/headphone set which needn't cost more than $10, and a willingness to learn.

So, having punched through that excuse, what you're really saying is that people who are better at Dungeoneering as a team shouldn't actually be rewarded for being better because, basically, you don't want to. I'm sure plenty of people will forgive me for thinking that argument holds very little weight.

Argue all you want that solo DG should have better XP rates. I'd probably agree with you. Don't argue that this should be accomplished by nerfing the reward disparity between those who don't want to try doing it in a team and those who do, as the skill was designed for.

Skype and the headset aside, not everyone in the rs community knows about apps like DGSweeper and probably wouldn't know where to look (I've talked to people who didn't know what the rsof was). And a lot of what constitutes "pro" communities is homogeny of strategy and communication, which if you don't know where to start it's very hard to break into and research. I'm not saying JaGeX should cater to these players at the complete detriment of the metagame community, but they're not instituting an XP nerf for team DG (As far as we know anyway), and your complaint of "exp disparity" has no real effect on the level you'll get doing the method you already are.

Argue all you want that solo DG should have better XP rates. I'd probably agree with you. Don't argue that this should be accomplished by nerfing the reward disparity between those who don't want to try doing it in a team and those who do, as the skill was designed for.


This part intrigues me the most, because the only way to increase solo xp rates without raising the reward disparity would be to increase DG exp rates across the board, which I suppose would make it less of a pain for everyone involved but then we'll have a host of people complaining that "they got DG the hard way" and so on. How would you suggest we help soloers without damaging the DG teams?

EDIT: To clarify a point I'm not sure I got across properly, I never said that

people who are better at Dungeoneering as a team shouldn't actually be rewarded for being better.

They are being rewarded, they will unquestionably still have the highest rate of exp. What you're complaining about is that the reward isn't so much better than everyone else. To me that's a bit childish, you're still getting returns on your investment.

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#76
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-snip-
That^

That might have more to do with how high 5:5 standards are these days and how few people are really willing to teach others.


To that I blame ridiculously insular communities for fostering and encouraging that. But really you'd find most high level players are willing to be patient if you're learning. DG is the sort of skill where you either love it or hate it, and most people who love it tend to keep playing past 120/200m because of the team dynamic.

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#77
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I would personally like to see dgsweeper style map implemented by jagex. It should automatically update, and update key doors automatically so that we don't need software to track this. This would drastically increase regular players ability (though it might detract from people who say this should be a skill)

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#78
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I would personally like to see dgsweeper style map implemented by jagex. It should automatically update, and update key doors automatically so that we don't need software to track this. This would drastically increase regular players ability (though it might detract from people who say this should be a skill)


They will say "Our engine does not currently support this feature. We will send this to our engine team for further consideration." They should just borrow Stev for a week.

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#79
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I would personally like to see dgsweeper style map implemented by jagex. It should automatically update, and update key doors automatically so that we don't need software to track this. This would drastically increase regular players ability (though it might detract from people who say this should be a skill)


They will say "Our engine does not currently support this feature. We will send this to our engine team for further consideration." They should just borrow Stev for a week.


Or just hire him outright. He deserves it for all the work he basically did for them since DGSweeper's release. It's a feature that should have never been left from game.

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#80
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:c My "like" quota runs out way too early....</offtopic>

Yes, I agree. But they have the power to do so much more than just what Stev has done on dgsweeper because they ahve access to so much more. For example not needing to load the map constantly, and having it auto change as new doors are opened and have it auto place keys
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