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Behind the Scenes - November


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#121
Kimberly
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Is another factor simply that, if you're the kind of person that's good at teaching people and you'd enjoy teaching people about Dungeoneering and how to do it effectively, there simply isn't any reward in-game for doing so and no way for other people in the clan to reimburse you for your efforts? You could easily empathise with someone who might want to train a new "meta" generation, but doesn't want to because they'd rather be doing the floors themselves with the fellow clan members they've known for months, years on end.

If team DGing is an example of emergent gameplay, then it stands to reason that Jagex won't necessarily reward everyone involved. But even on an interpersonal level, if you're a patient and understanding person who cares about the future of the skill, no-one's going to thank you for it except the ones you're training, and it's not going to get you that next chaotic any time soon.


Well, you're mentioning enjoyment. They could get enough enjoyment out of the activity and the structures that go with it and allow it to thrive (typically goes hand-in-hand with leading a clan about that). The teaching becomes secondary to the main activity of simply dg'ing. Most of the teachers in clans for aren't actual teachers -- they're experts in the area, and they share their knowledge, but they don't always know how to effectively convey it. Hell that's where a lot of the animosity towards DGS exists. They're amazing experts but teaching well to everyone, rather than just those with similar personality types to them, is not their strong point. (Not saying it it has to be, just making an observation.)

That said about enjoyment, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean when you say Jagex doesn't need to reward people. I guess you could say the "reward" for getting better at DG was astronomically increased xp/hr rates. However, if they're removing the magnitude of that reward, doesn't that just reinforce the fact that people would eventually stop feeding into that cycle of growth for DG? It seems like we're both agreeing that it's collectively lowering the bar over time and killing it.

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#122
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I don't think the dg xp will be 350k for most people, just for people with 120 dg + high floors. :?

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#123
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I don't think the dg xp will be 350k for most people, just for people with 120 dg + high floors. :?

If Jagex employees can manage 350K an hour I'm sure any nub could. :P.

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#124
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That said about enjoyment, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean when you say Jagex doesn't need to reward people. I guess you could say the "reward" for getting better at DG was astronomically increased xp/hr rates. However, if they're removing the magnitude of that reward, doesn't that just reinforce the fact that people would eventually stop feeding into that cycle of growth for DG? It seems like we're both agreeing that it's collectively lowering the bar over time and killing it.

I meant that in cases of emergent gameplay, it's very hard for Jagex to ensure that everyone in the process receives some kind of in-game reward for their efforts, since emergent gameplay by definition cannot have been planned by Jagex. Certainly, if what we're reading into this BTS blurb is true--and it is only a blurb, very skimp on detail--that the gap in XP rates between 5:5 and solo dungeoneering will close significantly, then there'll be less incentive for certain clans to teach new people about how team dungeoneering works, and as a consequence, that cycle will slow down gradually, eventually leading to the death of DG as we know it. We can completely agree there.

#125
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Ginger, I disagree. I think that there will be possibly an increase in enjoyment of the skill as people can more easily solo or small teams. I find that right now people will sit and wait for 30-45 minutes just to get a 5th, when they could do a trio med or a 4x large and be done well before. They have it ingrained that it isn't worth doing not 5:5s (which usually is true..) I am hoping that it increases my abillty to convince people to duo so I can teach. Also, I find that people tend to enjoy it more as they get higher up, so I think that it might open up more chances for people to learn at their own pace.

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#126
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You're not disagreeing with me then. By "as we know it" it was pretty obvious I meant 5:5, clan-based dungeoneering.

#127
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But 'as we know it' is useless. Of course it will change. I'm saying I disagree. I think more people will more easily get excited about dungeoneering as it will help them "catch up" and maybe get to where they want to learn more. People can go both directions. That is, what I mean to say is that players will have more opportunity to dungeon, and less standing around. More enjoyment means they might realize how much more fun clan based dg is and then seek out a dg clan..

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#128
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so I think that it might open up more chances for people to learn at their own pace.

I don't think anybody can learn to dungeoneer well on their own, as passing the gt around or paying attention to other people's gates is just very different. Nor will anyone find out whether they enjoy teaming up from soloing.

I don't think many people can average five or even ten minutes to get a decent five-person team together. Yes, you can skill while you gather people, but only if you're doing it via PM/Clan/Friends chat, and it's still extra effort. If soloing goes up to 350k xp/hr, you need teaming to be a lot faster, over 500k/hr easily, or it simply won't be worth the wait and effort. Soloing is also decidedly easier than teaming as monsters are far weaker. I think that deserves less xp. It's like comparing ivy and arctic pines.
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#129
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I don't think anybody can learn to dungeoneer well on their own, as passing the gt around or paying attention to other people's gates is just very different. Nor will anyone find out whether they enjoy teaming up from soloing.

But it does help them get their levels up to the point where they can join teams and learn the ins and outs of the skill. Ideally, the boost is enough that it makes the skill more accessible but not enough to make teams obsolete. It looks like their plan is still for 5:5 to be the best, hopefully they know how to balance it. If not, they can always nerf it.

#130
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Levels aren't that important. You're acting like you absolutely need to be doing warps only and three binds to be in DG clan. If that's really what you believe, then it's a grossly misinformed opinion. You can quite easily get into DG clans at level 70ish, which isn't that high.

The "ins and outs" of clan dungeoneering aren't learnt by doing solo floors and depending on the game to teach you.

#131
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Levels mean floors. Many people don't like doing low floors. It's getting from the abd1 to occs that many of my friends get fed up because I can't/won't help them that often on those low floors. Also it means that you're friends who are higher level take a lot longer to reset on average so they can't keep doing lfoors with you since eventually they just have more floors.

I'm simply saying that this increase to dg xp might decrease some people's frustrations about dg to the point where they might be willing to clan dg and learn. Not everyone... but not everyone will quit 5:5s either. Some people obviously will. I will probably do more 3:3s and 4:4s due to ease of finding it.

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#132
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Quests Rework: Good, I loved the Ozan quests, looking forward these
Dungeoneering XP Revamp: Maybe people will do small c6s instead of c1s? Not bad to be honest, can't complain about more DG XP Lol
Combat Beta Tutorial: Wasn't bad at all, it actually cleared some things to me, although they should've explained how the equipment screen works as well
Tears of Guthix: Well I stopped doing this long ago, maybe I'll start again
Gravestones: Eh, good I guess, less annoying to pick up shit when I die
Make X: From the looks of the interface (the one that pops up), it looks awful, but if reworked properly, could be a good addition
SoF/Sol: L

Good month overall, keep it up Jagex

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#133
decebal
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If what we're reading into this BTS blurb is true--and it is only a blurb, very skimp on detail--that the gap in XP rates between 5:5 and solo dungeoneering will close significantly, then there'll be less incentive for certain clans to teach new people about how team dungeoneering works, and as a consequence, that cycle will slow down gradually, eventually leading to the death of DG as we know it. We can completely agree there.

(I seriously hope I'm not the only one here that was hopelessly addicted to WoW)

While agree with your view on emergent gameplay, I want to mention my opinion the future of Dungeoneering. This kind of reminds me of the days when Dungeon Finder was first implemented within World of Warcraft. For people that don't know, Dungeon Finder was an option to place yourself within a queue with other people of your realm within your battlegroup (multiple servers linked together). This tremendously increased the speed of finding a PUG (Pick Up Group) because it is automatically done for you instead of waiting around for a group to fill up with people, while also making end-game more accessable for casual players. The downside to this is that the people that just started doing dungeons don't want to bother with learning their role, making a DF PUG a pain in the ass occassionally when someone doesn't know that they're supposed to do something. It doesn't help the fact that kicking options are limited.

So what does this mean, in terms of Runescape? When you increase DG xp for solo players without touching large groups, it will increase the amount of people that will be able to do high level DG's and therefore will probably enjoy it because of the increased option, rewards, and xp, however the hardcore DGer will suffer because the new wave of DGers will still be underdeveloped skill-wise, therefore lessening their enjoyability of DG. People will also be more willing to casually DG, therefore DG clans will be less prominent.

I wanted to type this out as my opinion of what will happen in the future, encompassing as many other explanations as possible.



I think you're underestimating the social aspect of the skill. Even if you're getting 350k xp/hr solo, it's going to be very easy to get burnt out solo'ing. It will feel more like grinding. In other words, without a team to keep you company and interact with, DG becomes a lot less fun. Teams will still exist because a) they're better xp/hr and b) they're more fun.

You're talking about Runescape here. If you don't enjoy grinding and solo skilling you would have quit this game the moment one of your skills reached level 30.


There's a big difference between "enjoying" grinding and merely tolerating it. I think most players belong to the latter category. It's called "grinding" for a reason, after all :P

Fair enough ;) . Point still stands, though.

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#134
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Only interested in the quest lol, other stuff looks good for other players though.
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#135
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Pleeeease tell me next week is Tears of Guthix AND dungeoneering xp balancing. There's no way I'd be cool with just a tiny rework on a 5-minute-a-week xp handout.
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#136
Quyneax
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Levels mean floors. Many people don't like doing low floors.

If Jagex fixed the xp curve so that lower floors are worth doing as larges, the problem is solved far more elegantly and productively.
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#137
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This seems like a good month to me. Better dg xp for soloers like myself, and tears of guthix update seems very useful as well. However: Even more in-game advantage SoF specials? This time which will let you get that massive xp token reward from the troll warzone twice or more a month? Come on, Jagex :/

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#138
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It's the insufferable elitist pieces of shit who are hurting the skill. I can see why more people would want to solo. And people are giving reasons like "DG is supposed to be social" or "how will they learn to 5:5". Well surprise, it's not working already. DG is perhaps the most ANTIsocial skill, with people using their ignore lists and notes as lists of people to not DG with. The reason why I stress anti is because it's not because you simply don't talk like when doing afk skills, people start hating other people because of this.

Isn't that a true reflection on life though?

Whatever jobs we do, almost all of us will end up working in teams of some description. Most people we'll like, some people we won't like. The beauty about RuneScape is that if you don't want to spend time with people who get on your back, you don't have to. Just spend time with the people you do like, and you'll find DG is a much more pleasurable experience. Believe me, you won't have that luxury in the real world... you work with "pieces of shit" whether you like it or not.


Apologies about any typos, I'm on my phone. I agree that you can choose who to hang out with and team up with in rs easier than at work, but that's not enough. When I want to dung I can't just suddenly choose people I want to dg with. People have schedules and its annoying to try and coordinate times during the limited playtime that I have. Some may be different, but the friends I make just aren't interested in dg. For some, even most it's just a fact that the friends they make naturally are good to dg with, but a skill shouldn't cater to those with certain personality traits to the degree it does now, in my opinion anyway.

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#139
Iareplatypus
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Definitely looking forward to this one.
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#140
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Jagex is making my choice of not spinning better and better.

also, I am really looking forward to the make-x system in the real game, they only need to make cleaning herbs 1 tick instead of two.
And I really want a D&D tab on the noticeboard




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