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Da_Latios

Some notes about combat styles, weapon types and damage in the EOC

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I'm not really sure where to post this, but I guess I'll post it here. Anyway...

 

There are now several different weapon types and stances for each combat style. Dual wielding, 2h, Main & shield... each of these are proposed to be somewhat balanced, with Dual wielding and 2h supposedly having the same damage output as each other.

This is not the case. At least, when you want to use abilities.

 

For all combat styles, most abilities (any ability that doesn't specify otherwise, really) only activate on the main hand weapon, and only use the main hand's damage and accuracy. For example, if you were to Dual wield a Chaotic longsword in your main hand and an Enhanced Excalibur in your offhand and use the ability 'Assault', the damage the ability does will be based off the Chaotic longsword in your main hand, and will ignore the offhand weapon entirely, essentially wasting it for the ability. This means that you would have done the same damage were you wielding a shield in the offhand, or if you had been wearing no offhand at all. The same concept applies for Ranged and Magic.

 

Ranged damage is calculated by weapon damage + ammo damage, NOT taking into account the offhand unless you are using a Dual wield ability. Once again, when using one-handed abilities (Unload is the only Dual-wield ability for Ranged) while Dual wielding Ranged weapons - crossbows, for example - you will completely waste the offhand weapon. Again, wielding a shield or no offhand would have yielded the same damage output. Since abilities are based purely off weapon and ammo damage, if you intend to spam abilities then the higher damage the better, regardless of weapon speed, as the rate at which you can activate abilities is not affected by weapon speed. This makes the Royal crossbow (1927 damage with Royal bolts) the current hardest-hitting Ranged weapon in the game when using abilities. It also makes Dual wield Ranging all but useless unless you intend to use Momentum, which is another topic to cover altogether.

 

Magic Staves are given a 2.3-2.4x spell damage multiplier when using auto attacks. The damage multiplier is NOT active on abilities. What does this mean? Well, it means that a wand + shield will do the exact same damage as a Chaotic staff, since once again casting speed does not matter when spamming abilities. However, bear in mind that wands are generally less accurate than staves, with the Virtus wand having 720 accuracy, and the Chaotic staff 800. In most situations though, the +80 accuracy is not going to outweigh the benefit of using a shield.

Further, the same concept as with Dual wielding Ranged and Melee applies also with Magic. Using a book to boost casting damage is near pointless as the book will not be used at all if abilities are the only thing you use. However, since the casting speed is so fast and humans are only so receptive, there may be a few auto attacks slipping between ability casting when dual wielding Magic. Regardless, even when using Momentum, a book + wand combo is unnecessary, as you will have the same damage output as a staff with far fewer rune costs.

 

Melee is the only combat style in which there are Dual wield and 2h-specific abilities that often outclass the single-hand abilities. For Melee, it may not be entirely false to say that Dual wielding and 2h builds share a similar damage output even when using abilities, and a sword + shield combo will not yield the same damage output as the other two stances.

 

So what does this all mean? Well, to sum it up:

For Ranged, only weapon damage on the main hand matters when using most abilities; Bows and 2h Crossbows therefore are most effective as they give the most damage. A Crossbow + shield build will yield the same damage output as Dual wielding crossbows when using abilities, due to abilities only taking into account main hand damage.

For Magic, Staves and Wands give the same damage output (accuracy aside) when using abilities, so it may be a better idea to use a wand + shield setup over a staff setup in most cases. Also, when using Momentum, Staves deal the same damage output as a Wand + Book combo for a dramatically reduced cost.

For Melee, Dual wield and 2h builds are fairly similar, and depends entirely on the situation, though 2h weapons WILL deal more damage per-ability when using single-hand abilities. Shield setups aren't terrible, but not as similar to Dual wield setups as the other combat styles.

 

EDIT: I thought I may as well share some of my Action bars: http://imgur.com/a/ofBat

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IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 Combat

Bandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots

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Very useful notes, cheers! It looks like off-hand crossbows should only be brought in as a 'spec weapon' of sorts for the Unload ultimate, and it seems 2H weapons are the best choice for general melee/range dps.


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I'd definitely argue in ignorance that Punish and Flurry are reasons to keep to the 2x wield on melee. I'm not convinced Quake and Hurricane deal similar amounts of damage outside of DG, since slayer combat tends to be 1v1.

 

Fascinating stuff though. I'll think about the ranged stuff next time I have a Vyrewatch task since I prefer to keep my momentum high for Rapid Fire and Snap Shot.

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I'd definitely argue in ignorance that Punish and Flurry are reasons to keep to the 2x wield on melee. I'm not convinced Quake and Hurricane deal similar amounts of damage outside of DG, since slayer combat tends to be 1v1.

 

Fascinating stuff though. I'll think about the ranged stuff next time I have a Vyrewatch task since I prefer to keep my momentum high for Rapid Fire and Snap Shot.

Actually the past two days i spent some time raising my attack from 60 to 75 and i noticed that using a 2H weapon instead of 2x Wielding i managed to increase my Combat exp gains by 15k per hour at the very least. I assume most efficient slayers will have this in mind when on a Melee task. So 2H would be superior to 2x.

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Any tips for mid-level range/mage? Been trying to get to 60 in each from 40, but its either take forever via slayer or normal combat and take a lot of hits, OR slowly grind it via chickens for consistent xp....but ALSO still slow.


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I'd definitely argue in ignorance that Punish and Flurry are reasons to keep to the 2x wield on melee. I'm not convinced Quake and Hurricane deal similar amounts of damage outside of DG, since slayer combat tends to be 1v1.

 

Fascinating stuff though. I'll think about the ranged stuff next time I have a Vyrewatch task since I prefer to keep my momentum high for Rapid Fire and Snap Shot.

Actually the past two days i spent some time raising my attack from 60 to 75 and i noticed that using a 2H weapon instead of 2x Wielding i managed to increase my Combat exp gains by 15k per hour at the very least. I assume most efficient slayers will have this in mind when on a Melee task. So 2H would be superior to 2x.

 

If this is true I wasted quite a bit of time =S. My theory was that 2x had smaller, more frequent hits and had a sort of equilibrium-aura effect which minimized overkill. However, I used momentum the whole time, no abilities except for gaining the initial adrenaline.

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The way magic auto attacks work is a bit different than ranged and melee. They seem to sneak their way in between abilities. I think that would make 2h staff better DPS than wand/shield even without taking into account the accuracy. But I suppose magic is still the most likely candidate to use a shield setup on, because it's still much closer DPS to 2h than it is with ranged or melee.


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After reading what you said about 2H vs 2x in terms of Ranged i tried it out and upgraded my Rune xBow and Offhand for a Royal xBow. Pushed my exp rate from ~120k/h to ~190k/h lol.

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When using momentum, dual wielding will always be better than using a 2h because there is a higher chance of a critical hit (in theory).

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When using momentum, dual wielding will always be better than using a 2h because there is a higher chance of a critical hit (in theory).

That's a good point, but still, a critical hit is only 1.2x damage multiplier I think? I was hitting 1250 with each hit with Unload, 1500 critical, which is a 1.2x multiplier.

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IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 Combat

Bandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots

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For Magic, Staves and Wands give the same damage output

 

I thought the same applied to Melee and Ranged as well.

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The way magic auto attacks work is a bit different than ranged and melee. They seem to sneak their way in between abilities. I think that would make 2h staff better DPS than wand/shield even without taking into account the accuracy. But I suppose magic is still the most likely candidate to use a shield setup on, because it's still much closer DPS to 2h than it is with ranged or melee.

After reading this, I went to the training dummies in Lumbridge with a Chaotic staff and spammed Magic abilities with Fire surge on auto-cast (yes I had the runes to cast it) and didn't see any auto attacks, so I don't think this is true.

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IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 Combat

Bandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots

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For Magic, Staves and Wands give the same damage output

 

I thought the same applied to Melee and Ranged as well.

With Melee, ability damage is calculated by weapon damage, which is different for all weapons, and is generally higher on 2h weapons.

Ranged is the same, but also counts ammo damage.

With Magic however, damage is calculated from spell damage, which is given a 2x multiplier with a staff but only for auto attacks. Spell damage remains unchanged when using abilities with any Magic weapon style, be it Dual wield, Staff or Wand/shield. This is why damage is the same for Wand and Staff.


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IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 Combat

Bandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots

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After reading what you said about 2H vs 2x in terms of Ranged i tried it out and upgraded my Rune xBow and Offhand for a Royal xBow. Pushed my exp rate from ~120k/h to ~190k/h lol.

That's because runite is tier 50 and royal xbow is tier 80, so you *should* be expecting a 1.6x increase in XP rates lol.

 

I'm pretty convinced that dual wielding is a better choice than 2h for momentum on slayer tasks, since there's much less overkill loss to be had. Only issue might be transitioning from monster to monster.

 

Critical hits are 50% more damage for autoattacks, but when they trigger on abilities they just hit the ability's maximum hit.

 

Finally, I believe autoattacks from staves hit 2.25x as much as those cast from a wand, not 2x.


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In real life MMO you don't get 99 smithing by making endless bronze daggers.

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Another point, 2h's suck when cannoning low hp monsters, because it's harder to tag them before they die.

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After reading what you said about 2H vs 2x in terms of Ranged i tried it out and upgraded my Rune xBow and Offhand for a Royal xBow. Pushed my exp rate from ~120k/h to ~190k/h lol.

That's because runite is tier 50 and royal xbow is tier 80, so you *should* be expecting a 1.6x increase in XP rates lol.

 

I'm pretty convinced that dual wielding is a better choice than 2h for momentum on slayer tasks, since there's much less overkill loss to be had. Only issue might be transitioning from monster to monster.

 

Critical hits are 50% more damage for autoattacks, but when they trigger on abilities they just hit the ability's maximum hit.

 

Finally, I believe autoattacks from staves hit 2.25x as much as those cast from a wand, not 2x.

 

I think spell damage is bugged... again. I'm hitting 513 with Wind strike with a staff and the interface is saying my max is 147. And I was hitting 1,772 with Fire Blast, lol. And they weren't critical hits.

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After reading what you said about 2H vs 2x in terms of Ranged i tried it out and upgraded my Rune xBow and Offhand for a Royal xBow. Pushed my exp rate from ~120k/h to ~190k/h lol.

That's because runite is tier 50 and royal xbow is tier 80, so you *should* be expecting a 1.6x increase in XP rates lol.

 

I'm pretty convinced that dual wielding is a better choice than 2h for momentum on slayer tasks, since there's much less overkill loss to be had. Only issue might be transitioning from monster to monster.

 

Critical hits are 50% more damage for autoattacks, but when they trigger on abilities they just hit the ability's maximum hit.

 

Finally, I believe autoattacks from staves hit 2.25x as much as those cast from a wand, not 2x.

 

I think spell damage is bugged... again. I'm hitting 513 with Wind strike with a staff and the interface is saying my max is 147. And I was hitting 1,772 with Fire Blast, lol. And they weren't critical hits.

When you've got an autocast spell set the interface only shows the base spell damage, I believe. This doesn't take into account the base damage of your magic level or the damage boost from staves/damage penalty from dual wielding.


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In real life MMO you don't get 99 smithing by making endless bronze daggers.

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After reading what you said about 2H vs 2x in terms of Ranged i tried it out and upgraded my Rune xBow and Offhand for a Royal xBow. Pushed my exp rate from ~120k/h to ~190k/h lol.

That's because runite is tier 50 and royal xbow is tier 80, so you *should* be expecting a 1.6x increase in XP rates lol.

 

I'm pretty convinced that dual wielding is a better choice than 2h for momentum on slayer tasks, since there's much less overkill loss to be had. Only issue might be transitioning from monster to monster.

 

Critical hits are 50% more damage for autoattacks, but when they trigger on abilities they just hit the ability's maximum hit.

 

Finally, I believe autoattacks from staves hit 2.25x as much as those cast from a wand, not 2x.

You may be right on that 2.25x number actually, though it would be difficult to tell exactly because of differing spell damages.

 

In fact, let's do some theory.

 

A Chaotic maul is 1828 damage, speed Average, level 80.

A Chaotic staff is speed Average, level 80.

Both these weapons should have the same damage output while auto attacking.

 

Fire surge is damage 768.

Ice Barrage/Polypore strike is damage 786.

 

768*2.25 = 1728.

786*2.25 = 1768.5.

Since those are the hardest-hitting spells, it can't be 2.25 exactly. Let's try and find the right multiplier.

 

768*2.38 = 1827.84. This seems about right.

786*2.326 = 1828.236.

 

So the multiplier of a staff is somewhere between 2.326 and 2.38. I'm going to assume the spell with the higher damage is going to be most comparable however, so I'll assume for now that the multiplier is around 2.326.

 

Sound about right?


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IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 Combat

Bandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots

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Add 80 to Fire Surge (since it's a capped at tier 80 spell) to simulate the intended tier damage. Multiply this by 2.25 to account for speed bonus and 2h bonus.

 

Next, add 80 to Chaotic maul's 1828 damage.

 

These are the same. Of course, if you're 99 Magic/Strength, the actual damage you'll get from these will be different (Fire Surge will come ahead slightly).

 

Interesting it looks like Polypore Strike/Ice Barrage are tiered above 80 in terms of damage. Or it might just be a typo.

-----------------

 

I just tested Turmoil on training dummies in Lumbridge using criticals. It appears from quick testing that Turmoil adds about 18% more damage to all attacks.

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In real life MMO you don't get 99 smithing by making endless bronze daggers.

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After reading what you said about 2H vs 2x in terms of Ranged i tried it out and upgraded my Rune xBow and Offhand for a Royal xBow. Pushed my exp rate from ~120k/h to ~190k/h lol.

That's because runite is tier 50 and royal xbow is tier 80, so you *should* be expecting a 1.6x increase in XP rates lol.

 

I'm pretty convinced that dual wielding is a better choice than 2h for momentum on slayer tasks, since there's much less overkill loss to be had. Only issue might be transitioning from monster to monster.

 

Critical hits are 50% more damage for autoattacks, but when they trigger on abilities they just hit the ability's maximum hit.

 

Finally, I believe autoattacks from staves hit 2.25x as much as those cast from a wand, not 2x.

 

I think spell damage is bugged... again. I'm hitting 513 with Wind strike with a staff and the interface is saying my max is 147. And I was hitting 1,772 with Fire Blast, lol. And they weren't critical hits.

When you've got an autocast spell set the interface only shows the base spell damage, I believe. This doesn't take into account the base damage of your magic level or the damage boost from staves/damage penalty from dual wielding.

 

No, it shows the base spell damage + passive damage from your level (1 damage per level). I posted a list of all the base damage of spells a while ago, on the beta thread.

 

Staves are supposed to give a 225% damage increase, so I should be hitting 330, not 513. I'm doing 350% spell damage right now... Lol.

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No, it shows the base spell damage + passive damage from your level (1 damage per level). I posted a list of all the base damage of spells a while ago, on the beta thread.

 

Staves are supposed to give a 225% damage increase, so I should be hitting 330, not 513. I'm doing 350% spell damage right now... Lol.

Apparently there's also damage scaling from your level, but the last time anyone paid attention to it, it was really broken. Updates, anyone?

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I'm so confused right now...

 

Max hit with Slice (125% weapon damage), with my gravite longsword (673 weapon damage) = 770.

 

Max hit with Slice, but with with my gravite 2h sword (1256 weapon damage) = 1116.

 

Max hit with Piercing Shot (125% weapon damage) with my gravite shortbow and rune arrows (1089 damage weapon damage) = 1088.

 

Max hit with Ricochet (100% weapon damage) with my gravite shortbow and rune arrows (1089 weapon damage) = 870.

 

How does this make any sense?

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I'm so confused right now...

 

Max hit with Slice (125% weapon damage), with my gravite longsword (673 weapon damage) = 770.

 

Max hit with Slice, but with with my gravite 2h sword (1256 weapon damage) = 1116.

 

Max hit with Piercing Shot (125% weapon damage) with my gravite shortbow and rune arrows (1089 damage weapon damage) = 1088.

 

Max hit with Ricochet (100% weapon damage) with my gravite shortbow and rune arrows (1089 weapon damage) = 870.

 

How does this make any sense?

Some Abilities that do a percentage of weapon damage (Let's take Slice for example, 125%) apply the damage multiplier AFTER the initial base hit is calculated, though some Abilities do in fact deal a set amount (like Dismember). So the game calculates, for example, a 700 hit for that ability, then the 125% modifier from Slice is added after that. 700*1.25=875.

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IRC Nick: Hiroki | 99 Agility | Max Quest Points | 138 Combat

Bandos drops: 20 Hilt | 22 Chestplate | 21 Tassets | 14 Boots

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I'm so confused right now...

 

Max hit with Slice (125% weapon damage), with my gravite longsword (673 weapon damage) = 770.

 

Max hit with Slice, but with with my gravite 2h sword (1256 weapon damage) = 1116.

 

Max hit with Piercing Shot (125% weapon damage) with my gravite shortbow and rune arrows (1089 damage weapon damage) = 1088.

 

Max hit with Ricochet (100% weapon damage) with my gravite shortbow and rune arrows (1089 weapon damage) = 870.

 

How does this make any sense?

 

Is there a way to know for certain when a hit is a max anymore? Or did you just think that criticals are the new max hit splat, which they aren't. Critical hits are still a mystery to me. Sometimes I'll hit multiple criticals in a row, and they'll all do the same damage. Also, I've had a few occasions where I've used a multitarget ability, and all the targets were hit with the exact same damage. I am baffled muchly.


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[spoiler=I LOVE MY STATION]

 

01001001001001110110110100100000010101000111011101100101011011000111011001100101

00100000011000010110111001100100001000000111011101101000011000010111010000100000

0110100101110011001000000111010001101000011010010111001100111111

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Crits are a mystery to me as well. They're rarely the same number, so they're not a max hit. We do know that it's not a percentage of your enemies remaining health, at least.

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