School shooting in CT on 14-12-2012

[Donnie]

so it seems that social norms have a stronger effect on use then legality?

[Randox]

Hard to say. Most people who are trying to make a point don't need to kill tens or hundreds of thousands of people to do it, not when there are much easier methods that are more than enough to get peoples attention. So it could just be a matter of convenience and simplicity as well.

 

In terms of gaining support for a cause, yes, social norms would become more important. Few people are going to side with the guys using nuclear weapons, VX, or anthrax as their weapon of choice. They aren't the weapons of a cause, they are the weapons you use when you want to commit genocide.

 

There is also my theory of time. Making a nerve agent takes a long time. You don't decide you want to kill a thousand people and cook up some nerve gas in an afternoon. You need time to plan, and set up the manufacture and aquire the resources. This is where I think making it much harder to aquire certain weapons would reduce their use. If something is really difficult to get hold of, and you really want to kill someone right now, your probably going to go with the most lethal object that is immediately available to you, be it an M-16, a 9mm pistol, a 6 inch hunting knife or a baseball bat. If your a bit more patient, that you can scale up the time to what you can get your hands on in say 2 days.

 

 

Interesting side note, I was listening to a bit of a debate the local news station was holding last night, about whether Canada should disarm all private citizens. It wouldn't get rid of all the guns, you'd still have hunting rifles, and the illegal weapons on the street, but it makes it very difficult for the kid getting bullied to snap, take dads gun to school, and start shooting the place up. Thought is was kind of an interesting idea myself.

[obfuscator]

Responsible gun ownership also can help prevent incidents like that. Children should not have access to guns even if the parents own them - in fact the canadian firearms training course (which is mandatory for anyone wanting a PAL) has an entire section on socially responsible gun ownership.

[Ember]

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[obfuscator]

It's also quite feasible to need own more than one gun. Most avid hunters will probably have at least one shotgun and a rifle, for instance.

[Guest Rob]

It may be worth noting that a very large majority of "mass shootings" occur in places where possession of firearms is forbidden, giving violent actors easy access to a large group of unarmed victims. The only exception I can think of is the 2011 shooting in Tucson, Arizona.

 

I would argue that this occurs because it is still easy to get guns to the place where they are forbidden because they're legal in other states. You can buy a gun in one state, smuggle it easily to a gun-free state and then commit the crime there. If it was illegal nation wide, however, obtaining the gun would be much more difficult, as it can be hard to smuggle guns across country borders.

[Kaida23]

That really depends on the countries involved. It happens quite regularly across the US/Canada border.

[Ember]

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[Guest Rob]

It may be worth noting that a very large majority of "mass shootings" occur in places where possession of firearms is forbidden, giving violent actors easy access to a large group of unarmed victims. The only exception I can think of is the 2011 shooting in Tucson, Arizona.

 

I would argue that this occurs because it is still easy to get guns to the place where they are forbidden because they're legal in other states. You can buy a gun in one state, smuggle it easily to a gun-free state and then commit the crime there. If it was illegal nation wide, however, obtaining the gun would be much more difficult, as it can be hard to smuggle guns across country borders.

I was referring to "gun free school zones" and sites with "no weapons" signs rather than crossing any borders.

 

I'm not sure where a scenario like yours might even happen, as there is no such thing as a "gun-free state" in the US even if we ignore illegally-owned weapons. Even DC's handgun ban was found unconstitutional and overturned, although some states do restrict or prohibit the possession of a number of classifications.

 

Sorry, "Gun-free state" was a poor choice of words. I meant states that allow civilians to legally obtain/fire guns.

[Ember]

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[obfuscator]

I think guns are legal to some degree in every jurisdiction in North America....

[Ember]

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[Ginger_Warrior]

There were thirteen mass shootings in the eighteen years leading up to Australian gun control laws. There have been no mass shootings in the fourteen years since.

http://en.wikipedia....ersity_shooting

If we're counting two deaths as a mass shooting, I'd hate to think how many America is had in the last fourteen years. I'd also note that that shooting led to more restrictions on gun possession, not less, and was a major catalyst for the payback scheme in that state. Very weak point.

 

Oh, there's no doubt about the difficulty in creating a fair comparison, and there are more differences than just the legal definition of a crime.

 

Looking at just Australian numbers, I'm not sure how one could conclude that even heavy-handed restrictions reduce violent crime.

http://www.aic.gov.a...lent crime.html

Looking at just American numbers versus every other country in the developed world, I'm not sure how one could conclude that gun possession reduces it either.

[obfuscator]

There were thirteen mass shootings in the eighteen years leading up to Australian gun control laws. There have been no mass shootings in the fourteen years since.

http://en.wikipedia....ersity_shooting

If we're counting two deaths as a mass shooting, I'd hate to think how many America is had in the last fourteen years. I'd also note that that shooting led to more restrictions on gun possession, not less. Very weak point.

 

What is a mass shooting then? Is a drive-by shooting by a gang a mass shooting? Or does that not count? Seems to me that your point was factually incorrect, or you're simply using semantics to paint an unrealistic picture of the effectiveness of gun control.

[Ember]

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[Ginger_Warrior]

They found him not guilty of murder if I recall correctly meaning that the mass shootings weren't premeditated. He had some paranoia with the guy he murdered first didn't he? He was packed off to the proverbial loony bin anyway.

 

I think that violent crime is a result of many factors, mental health wellbeing obviously one of them. When you look at the rate of violent crime in the Moss Side area of Manchester it was a combination of many factors which eventually lead a drop in the rate of violent crime, which had previously spiked during the 1990s. There was closer working with the police and community, more cooperation between the two, more focus on the factors leading to crime, but yes, also the restriction and subsequent decrease in availability of firearms.

 

It's not the only factor in violent crime but it is a factor, and I don't think it's wise to conveniently ignore that reality because you find the other factors a bit more sexy. You need to address all the issues behind violent crime, not some of them.

[obfuscator]

I imagine the insanity defense is reasonable for most people who decide it's a good choice to go on a killing spree. If an insanity defense invalidates a mass shooting I wonder whether that might have applied to Adam Lanza were he still alive.

[Danqazmlp]

Isn't gun ownership simply a massively snowballing situation?

 

People own guns. Because of this, others want guns to defend themselves. More people want guns to defend themselves from these people. More people want guns etc etc.

 

I'm not going to get fully involved in this debate as it could go on forever and I don't have time for people who can't see the obvious things getting people killed and won't even try to solve the problem. All I'll say is that to the outside world, north America seems like an incredibly unsafe place to be.

[Z_Berenice]

Isn't gun ownership simply a massively snowballing situation?

 

People own guns. Because of this, others want guns to defend themselves. More people want guns to defend themselves from these people. More people want guns etc etc.

 

I'm not going to get fully involved in this debate as it could go on forever and I don't have time for people who can't see the obvious things getting people killed and won't even try to solve the problem. All I'll say is that to the outside world, north America seems like an incredibly unsafe place to be.

It depends on the place and the culture of that place I guess. I live in Panama and there are no limitations to the amount of guns you can have, the only limitation is that you can't have automatic weapons, and that's just being general, given that you pay certain fees and pass certain exams, you're allowed to have one. When you buy a gun here for the first time, they start a "page" that can have up to 10 guns registered, if you exceed that limit, they'll just start another page, and so on.

 

Thing is, unlike the U.S., to get a gun here, you have to pass psychiatric exams (which vary depending on the type of gun, automatic ones being the "hardest" to pass), then you can go and purchase a gun (they are a bit more expensive here so best thing to do, is to order them through an aproved seller/distributor, who will just resell it to you for its original price + a small gain porcentage + shipping fees), then the gun is registered, sample dna is taken if it's your first gun (if not, they'll just add it to your page), can take a couple of days-weeks.

 

Yet, you don't see mass shootings in here, most gun-related incidents are related to guns obtained illegaly and most of the time are hermetic incidents, meaning they only happen in certain places and only if you're part of certain people, aka, drug dealers and such; it's very rare that an incident of this type goes beyond that class frontier, so most of these incidents actually go unnoticed for the rest of the population.

 

Another thing, knives and overall non-firearm weapons require no permit, so you can actually go around carrying a big ass knife if you want, of course, it has to be concealed (ofc, same applies to guns), and yet again, incidents with these weapons are actually rare. I think this is probably the worst country to be a thief, most people carry AT LEAST pepper spray, I go around with a beretta 96 and a folding karambit.

 

My point is, it depends a lot on the country. Switzerland is another good example of almost everyone being armed, in fact, technically, their whole country is a militia, yet their crime rates are ridiculously low, so low, that they aren't even registered internationally, actually, there are more suicides related to fire arms than actual fire arm crimes...

[Fallstar]

"Last year, the Supreme Court, with a majority of eight to one, ruled that the church should be allowed to picket funerals by relying on their First Amendment rights to free speech.

 

In 2009, the British Government placed a ban on members of the church entering the UK due to their attitude to homosexuality."

 

Things like that make me proud to be British. No human right should be unlimited in scope.

That group is disgusting. If they do (did?) protest at those children's funerals regarding homosexuality, they deserve jail sentences as far as I'm concerned.

 

As far as gun laws go, it's too late for America. They'd be better off focusing on how to improve security at vulnerable public sites such as schools.

[decebal]

All I'll say is that to the outside world, north America seems like an incredibly unsafe place to be.

Wait, what about us Canadians :? ? You think we're gonna murder you guys with our polar bear-mounted cannons that everyone can legally have?

[Ginger_Warrior]

I'm more terrified of that terrible excuse of a substance you have the cheek to call maple *syrup*. This is what real syrup looks like.

[Alg]

All I'll say is that to the outside world, north America seems like an incredibly unsafe place to be.

Wait, what about us Canadians :? ? You think we're gonna murder you guys with our polar bear-mounted cannons that everyone can legally have?

As an American, I just have to say yes.

[Z_Berenice]

Any background on these? they keep showing up on every gun site I visit (which is weird, considering most of them actually hate conspiracy theories). Not really into tinfoil hat nuts and their conspiracies but these caught my attention... (meant for discussion, sorry if it offends anyone)

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urrRcgB581w

 

 

 

 

Edit: seems like some people can't post without being a jerk, spoiler'd.

[nine naked men]

Well if you look real closely, you'll see Obama has a very distinct eye shape and colour, normally only seen in reptiles and amphibians. This only furthers my theory that Barack Obama is indeed a lizard person.