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DJpailo

Jagex and all white staff.

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Okay, so I am always for hiring the best person for the job - that is great.

 

But lets be real here too. Players from all around the world play Runescape. Players, black, white, asian with all different creeds and its a wonderful experience to deal with peoples cultures.

 

So why is it, with the UK being a multi-ethnic society, is there not a single black or asian person working for Jagex, nor if they do, they do not appear in any videos? I do engineering and I see computer scientists at the university I go to in the UK, and many are different race and background, so we know that in the UK at least, there must be individuals who are black or asian and have programming experience.

 

So why isn't that translated at Jagex? They have an office in London which is one of the most multi-cultural cities in the world. They have offices in Cambridge which is just an hour drive from central London.

 

It just doesn't make sense. Can anyone at Jagex please explain the reasoning for this? I am not saying the staff aren't great because they do sound great! What I am questioning is that is everyone that applied to work for Jagex white only? If not, do you really mean to tell me that EVERY single white person was deemed better?

 

Sorry, but something isn't right here and it does need to be raised. Every time I watch these videos now, I feel let down by Jagex, particularly because people from so many different backgrounds play Runescape and it isn't represented at Jagex. (And no, the translators required do not count).

 

PS: Please don't flame or bring racist remarks into this thread. This is a genuine rant questioning how Jagex chooses its candidates.

 

I made that thread in the forum and it was closed by a pmod who wrote:

 

 

 

I've locked your thread as this isn't an appropriate subject to bring up anywhere.

 

Jagex hire staff of all races and backgrounds, I can definitely confirm that based on some of the videos they've put on the RuneScape Youtube channel. They have no way of knowing someone's racial background when they simply submit an application for a job. After that, staff are hired based on the qualifications the particular job requires such as education and prior work experience.

 

Please do not recreate this thread.

 

Quick find code: 285-286-393-64371896

 

 

I can't see a single ethnic minority person in any video (I haven't seen them all so I might be wrong). But even so, why aren't there more ethnic minority people employed by Jagex because surely they must get many applicants from all backgrounds (and for job applciations in the UK you are required to provide your ethnicity (as far as I am aware).

 

This is NOT a thread about positive discrimination. It is really a question on are there just not enough ethnic minority people capable in programming applying for Jagex or is there really indeed some form of institutional racism going on?

 

What do you guys think?

 

Please keep this civil and for heavens sake, any mod, just don't close it. This is a genuine question and I think it is a question that should be asked because I for one do find it amazing, having lived in London, that very few or indeed no one of ethnic minority is employed by Jagex?

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...Has it occurred to you that maybe they just dont have any non-UK white workers shown on BTS? There's a lot of possibilities why we don't see them in BTS/Videos as the presenters. I know for a fact there are a few black-coloured workers at Jagex.

 

Keep this in mind, although people ALL OVER apply for Jagex, they're more then likely to hire UK staff simply because they're physically right there and ready. I know a few friends who are capable at working with Jagex, but simply due to distance (and the fact Australia doesn't have a gaming company market) they'll hire a UK person over him.

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...Has it occurred to you that maybe they just dont have any non-UK white workers shown on BTS? There's a lot of possibilities why we don't see them in BTS/Videos as the presenters. I know for a fact there are a few black-coloured workers at Jagex.

 

Keep this in mind, although people ALL OVER apply for Jagex, they're more then likely to hire UK staff simply because they're physically right there and ready. I know a few friends who are capable at working with Jagex, but simply due to distance (and the fact Australia doesn't have a gaming company market) they'll hire a UK person over him.

 

Indeed you do make an excellent point in your first paragraph. How do you know this for a fact? Are they actually employed by Jagex staff who run Runescape? Also, why wouldn't they want to have any ethnic minority workers on the BTS? Admittedly, if as you claim there are only a few, then there won't be many videos which is fine, but even one or two would surely be better than none, as Jagex cycles through its employees to discuss latest updates.

 

But your second paragraph is misled, as the number of ethnic minority people living in London are disproportionate to the demographic of the rest of the UK. I also take engineering in the UK, and the computer scientists also have vast numbers of ethnic minorities, many of whom are not international students. The graduates are most certainly available.

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I must admit I find myself caring no more than enough to post on this topic saying so.

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I don't live in the UK so I don't really know the situation about Uni/College graduates, 'cept that most Aussie Uni'ers study Engineering and Psychology stuff.


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[nitpicking]: The thread was closed by a Fmod, Pmods can't close threads. [/nitpicking]

 

Only thing I think of when I read this is just how few employees are shown on BTS videos compared to how many actually work at Jagex. Not a large enough sample to make claims such as that which you have made.

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Mod Chihiro is Asian.


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I'm having trouble caring about the subject. Race has virtually nothing to do with employment anywhere. If you're implying Jagex is being racist by not employing minorities, you're the one that's racist for even noticing. Minorities can't be everywhere, or represented proportionally everywhere. There's simply not enough of them. If there were, they wouldn't be called "minorities". People are people. People hire people based on skill level and experience (and usually nepotism). End of story. I'm actually on the side of the ORFmod. Nothing productive is going to come from this thread other than people whining about Equal Opportunity Acts which are complete bull plop in my opinion.


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Racial quotas bother me. If the only thing you (general) notice about an organization are the people's skin colors, perhaps there's a problem with something other than the organization (someone rather).

 

The way you've narrowly framed the OP leaves little discussion, but there's lots to be had around this topic. If an organization ever hires someone specifically because of their gender, race or sexual orientation, I'd argue it's just as bad as not hiring them for the same reason.


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I'm having trouble caring about the subject. Race has virtually nothing to do with employment anywhere. If you're implying Jagex is being racist by not employing minorities, you're the one that's racist for even noticing. Minorities can't be everywhere, or represented proportionally everywhere. There's simply not enough of them. If there were, they wouldn't be called "minorities". People are people. People hire people based on skill level and experience (and usually nepotism). End of story. I'm actually on the side of the ORFmod. Nothing productive is going to come from this thread other than people whining about Equal Opportunity Acts which are complete bull plop in my opinion.

 

It's like you moved so far away from the door you fell out a window

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh8mUia75k8

"How do we end racism?"

"Stop talking about it."

 

A nice idea. Completely untenable but nice I guess.

 


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I'm having trouble caring about the subject. Race has virtually nothing to do with employment anywhere. If you're implying Jagex is being racist by not employing minorities, you're the one that's racist for even noticing. Minorities can't be everywhere, or represented proportionally everywhere. There's simply not enough of them. If there were, they wouldn't be called "minorities". People are people. People hire people based on skill level and experience (and usually nepotism). End of story. I'm actually on the side of the ORFmod. Nothing productive is going to come from this thread other than people whining about Equal Opportunity Acts which are complete bull plop in my opinion.

 

It's like you moved so far away from the door you fell out a window

 

 

 

This is NOT a thread about positive discrimination. It is really a question on are there just not enough ethnic minority people capable in programming applying for Jagex or is there really indeed some form of institutional racism going on?

 

 

You try staying locked in that house for a whole post.


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Sure, his position may have been a little ridiculous, kneejerk, based on not a lot of evidence, etc., but to claim that race has nothing to do with employment is equally silly.


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Sure, his position may have been a little ridiculous, kneejerk, based on not a lot of evidence, etc., but to claim that race has nothing to do with employment is equally silly.

 

I'd like to believe in a world where race yields and bears no preconceived notions.

 

I realize this isn't always the case, but to point fingers at a company and claim "oh they don't have all their basic minorities represented, they're up to no good" is more racist than the company in question in my eye. If a company so happens to follow this pattern, we need to delve deeper into the context of the scenario. Do they hire based on skill? Likely. Do they hire based on experience? Likely. Do they hire based on who they know? Likely. Do they hire because someone is black? They shouldn't do that anymore than they should if the person was white. Or Asian. or Hispanic. That's why the EOA is the dumbest thing ever. How is it less racist to hire the black guy to represent the black minority in your office than to hire a 43rd white guy because he's qualified? Even if they're equally qualified, race shouldn't be a factor in hiring. If it is, than yeah, the company has issues. If that's what we're talking about on this thread (implying Jagex is racist) then I'll say that the given party is innocent until proven guilty. Find a super good Hispanic coder. Wait til Jagex is hiring. Send him to apply. See what becomes of it. But don't say "oh they're racist" if he doesn't get the job either. You have to look at the entire pool they drew from. Did they pick the only white guy in 1000 application? Okay THAT would raise some questions. But no, Jagex isn't racist. And race should have nothing to do with job applications and hiring criteria.

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Sure, in a vacuum two equally qualified people of different races, doesn't matter which one you hire. But I think affirmative action is helpful in cases like these where there's a clear minority in one field (dunno about race % makeups of programmers but it's a definite male-dominated industry so let's say male v female since I'm talking more abstract anyway), affirmative action would mean hiring the minority which would go towards removing the stigmatization of said minority working in said field.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to wholly dismiss affirmative action (you should probably distinguish it from the Equal Opportunities Act in your posts or you might send the wrong idea, haha). It's definitely imperfect, but I definitely think it's necessary at this point in time.

 

I think we both agree on the Jagex issue though, there's nothing overtly pointing towards any kind of institutionalised racism.


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Yes we agree on the Jagex thing, but you seemed keen on actually making this thread worth something. You're right, my bone to pick is more with Affirmative Action than it is with EOA. I confuse the two because I had the stupidest crush on my management professor.

 

I still don't like that it comes down to "oh we don't have many women on staff, let's hire one" when all other fields are equal. I'd rather they flip a coin. Not to play white supremacist, but I feel like the average white guy loses out all the time due to this. There's more minorities overall than the "majority" in I'd like to say near all job markets (as in like 40% white male, 60% assorted other). Given this break down, if all people are put on equal terms of education/experience/yaddayadda the minority, the 60% will be picked for the job. And that's just stupid.


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I can't see a single ethnic minority person in any video (I haven't seen them all so I might be wrong). But even so, why aren't there more ethnic minority people employed by Jagex because surely they must get many applicants from all backgrounds (and for job applciations in the UK you are required to provide your ethnicity (as far as I am aware).

No you don't, if anything the reverse is true.

 

If you're asked to provide information on race or ethnicity when it's not directly relevant to the occupational requirements of the job, you reserve the right to not answer the question, since you are not legally obliged to do so. ACAS is very clear on the implications of the Equality Act 2010:

The Equality Act 2010 makes it illegal to treat a person less favourably due to their colour, nationality and ethnic or national origins.

 

Race discrimination covers all aspects of employment – from recruitment to pay, and training to the termination of a contract. Discrimination covers four areas:

 

1. Direct discrimination – treating someone less favourably on racial grounds

2. Indirect discrimination – applying practices that might favour one racial group over another

3. Harassment – unwanted conduct that violates a person’s dignity and creates a hostile or degrading environment

4. Victimisation – unfair treatment of an employee who has made a complaint about racial discrimination.

 

However, a job may be restricted to people of a particular race or ethnic or national origin, if one of these characteristics is a genuine occupational requirement. A genuine occupational requirement or qualification may apply in limited circumstances for reasons of authenticity – for example, to achieve authenticity a theatre company may need black actors to depict certain scenes.

Furthermore, just because you lived in London and noticed there were lots of ethnic minorities living there, does not mean you can translate it to the rest of the United Kingdom. Cambridge is where Jagex are based, it's a university town which holds one of the most prestigious educational institutions in the world, so it attracts a lot of non-British White students to the area; in spite of this, around 82% of the Cambridge population define themselves as 'white'.[1]

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Yes we agree on the Jagex thing, but you seemed keen on actually making this thread worth something. You're right, my bone to pick is more with Affirmative Action than it is with EOA. I confuse the two because I had the stupidest crush on my management professor.

 

I still don't like that it comes down to "oh we don't have many women on staff, let's hire one" when all other fields are equal. I'd rather they flip a coin. Not to play white supremacist, but I feel like the average white guy loses out all the time due to this. There's more minorities overall than the "majority" in I'd like to say near all job markets (as in like 40% white male, 60% assorted other). Given this break down, if all people are put on equal terms of education/experience/yaddayadda the minority, the 60% will be picked for the job. And that's just stupid.

I dunno what to say except that white people made up 81% of the work force in 2011 in America (from here), so while you may think white dudes get the short end of the stick in some areas I don't believe it's comparable to the institutionalised racism/sexism a lot of minorities still face today.

 

There are a bunch of other stats on the American workforce here. It's just overall of course, there are bound to be some differences if you break it up by sectors, etc, though I dunno if it'd swing too wild.


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If you took a moment to consider the whys, there's usually a reason for ethnic minorities being under-represented (or, what's perceived as under-represented) in the workforce. If we simplified hiring criterion to just two things - skill competency and ability to work with people, then we can reasonably argue that these criterion are based on cultural/environmental upbringing, the level of education acquired, and personality types. They all have some fairly direct relationship with employee demographics - e.g. if the immigrant culture is known to not be very competent at communication and lacks the correct skills to perform the job, it logically follows that there would be fewer immigrants working for firms like JaGex.

 

Oh, and the all-whites thing? It's not true - they just don't appear on cam so often, but they are there. I'm not even sure why I'm writing this because as everyone else is saying, it's not worth being concerned over this. If it was about employment as a whole refusing to take on ethnic minorities on that basis alone, then that's worth discussing.

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If you took a moment to consider the whys, there's usually a reason for ethnic minorities being under-represented (or, what's perceived as under-represented) in the workforce. If we simplified hiring criterion to just two things - skill competency and ability to work with people, then we can reasonably argue that these criterion are based on cultural/environmental upbringing, the level of education acquired, and personality types. They all have some fairly direct relationship with employee demographics - e.g. if the immigrant culture is known to not be very competent at communication and lacks the correct skills to perform the job, it logically follows that there would be fewer immigrants working for firms like JaGex.

"Oh, I'm not being racist - I'm just judging people based on my bigoted views about their ethnic background instead of their own personal merits."

 

Kinda funny that you're contradicting yourself and clearly implying the opposite of what you claimed.


Don't you find it fascinating that the signatures tend to take more space than posts themselves

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Affirmative action is a band-aid, and a bad one at that. It's just another form of institutionalized racism funded by white guilt.


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Affirmative action is a band-aid, and a bad one at that. It's just another form of institutionalized racism funded by white guilt.

Half-arsed excuses for racism is happening like Assume Nothing pointed out and you're telling us public governing going forwards it is "institutionalized racism"?

Don't you find it fascinating that the signatures tend to take more space than posts themselves

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Affirmative action on its own doesn't work, agreed. You also have to look at wider socialeconomic and geopolitical reasons for why ethnic minorities are so under-represented in the workforce. It's undoubtedly part of the solution, though.

 

Furthermore, my support for AA isn't triggered by "white guilt". I'm white, I had no part in the slave trade or racism in times gone by--I have nothing to feel guilty for. What I see is social inequality, and that makes me feel that a serious miscarriage of justice continues to operate in our society against those who are least able to fight that injustice. That isn't guilt.

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Work hard, prove yourself, fail, and get back up.

 

We all have to do it, and yes, favoritism happens (if you think about it that is what racism is, favoritism, or lack-there-of), but that is life.

Your mother will favor you over your best friend, she will pay you 20$ to mow the lawn and him only 10$ (actually that rarely happens, but you get it), so why do we expect differently when it comes to race?

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