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Yoko Kurama

High Tier Item Access

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As of EoC, nothing really requires skills beyond equipment requirements to be effective. The difference between 1 and 99 strength for someone using a chaotic maul is less than 5% DPS. Nex gear is easily replaced by void and barrows/ports armor. It's only really weapons that make a difference nowadays, and particularly drygores at that, but jagex made those quite easily accessible(high droprates and 3 drops). Most of the problems really arise from jagex updating their game at a very slow pace.


First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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For the rune armour argument, this is obsolete since Jagex didn't realize their game would get so far. Rune at 99 smithing? Oh yay...

 

^Xps: What!? It's the weekly updates that will make the game burn-out eventually and it brings so many bugs since the community expects it each week so some things get rushed.

 

Other then that if you can't get the gear you're doing something wrong. DIY please.


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For the rune armour argument, this is obsolete since Jagex didn't realize their game would get so far. Rune at 99 smithing? Oh yay...

 

I am not sure what you're trying to say here. The point of the Rune armour argument was that even when it was the best armour in the game, it was affordable and accessible to all provided that they put in some effort. The point of bringing this up was to countervail against Xpx's statement that such a state of affairs (the best gear in the game being reasonably challenging) was never the case.

 

The DIY argument is completely impractical when it comes to boss drop gear. Most people do not have the time nor patience to go hunt Nex in teams with LS for several months and pick up all the pieces that way. That's insanity. In my younger days, I certainly did camp nearly all the bosses out there (as late as 2011) such as Gwars, Nex, Corp, DKS, and so on to great sucess, for months on end, but I always resented that this was the only way to obtain such items (outside of gambling) and I have always maintained that this should be rectified.

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And do not forget PoP armour =D. This is a great way of introducing stuff w/o it coming from boss monsters! This is also reasonably challenge imo as it requires up to 10* 90+s to do this efficiently!

 

*The following skills are needed along with the level to fully access this piece:

  • Smithing - Level 90
  • Runecrafting - Level 90
  • Crafting - Level 90
  • Fletching - Level 95
  • Cooking - Level 93
  • Slayer - Level 90
  • Herblore - Level 90
  • Prayer - Level 90
  • Fishing - Level 90
  • Thieving - Level 90

I would deem this as a challenge to achieve to be able to access the content. Next to that, you need a lot of time and thus patience on obtaining everything yourself.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?~ Marianne Williamson

 

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My issue with the game as it is now is that the the non combat skills have become second class. If your not boss fighting, merchanting, or gambling hosting, then your poor. End of story. This thread has reminded me of a time long gone when the income disparity was not so bad, when hunter was more money than many combat activities. The fighters have always been wealthy, but for a long time there was also a dependancy on the skillers that doesn't seem to exist.

This is due in no small part to skilling bots. If gamers had to really on non-botters for the supplies generated by skilling, skilling would be a much more lucrative endeavor.

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I'm a bit confused about the counter argument of "you should have to work for high tier items" when 'work' is defined as: Killing a boss as many times as you can, in the hope that you'll get something rare and expensive from the drop table. Surely, the previous state of affairs where people used to cut yews and mine coal for money was more "work-like" than the above scenario. Sure, everything regresses to a mean on a large scale and boss hunting is no different, but on an individual level the profits gained and the amount of total work required vary drastically depending on simple chance. I could go one thousand kills at Glacors and not get a single boot drop; someone else might get two within one hundred kills of each other.

 

That's like saying if I go into my work tomorrow, there will be a raffle, and if I win the raffle, I'll get twice as much pay for today and not have to work Friday as a consequence. How is this anything akin to work in reality?

 

--------------------

 

As a second point, perhaps one common theme emerging from this thread is the idea that the difficulty of the boss is too positively correlated with the profitability of that boss. The fundamental point of Jad was that the reward is completely and utterly worthless as a commodity, but was still something that proved you were an exceptional player in having killed Jad, and there was an associated prestige with that. The fire cape cannot be traded, it doesn't generate any daily profit by itself, it doesn't particularly make you more 'efficient' at wealth creation; and yet Fight Caves used to be the toughest challenge the game had to offer. Another point was that successfully completing Jad depended on more than the character's skill levels and items--prayer switching is a player skill, and this made it accessible to people who were much lower than maxed level / items, whilst at the same time still keeping Fight Caves a massive challenge for top players.

 

If top players want an 'ultimate' challenge in the same mould as Jad, they have to accept that doing that challenge should provide nothing more than prestige. It shouldn't become another money-maker, as has happened with Nex.

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Challenges like jad are very nice, but it's really only a one time ticket. I really can't understand why monster hunting can't be the fundamental source of wealth in scape as it has been for a while- it is a great way to introduce new items, is always challenging and can be updated to be ''handed down'' to lower levels. You also don't need to kill the bosses for those specific desired items, instead having a choice between many different ones of varying profitability, difficulty and consistency of loot. Now all we have to do is accept jagex has made this game combat and primarily monster hunting based.

 

And yes, ports armor is a great example of how they can release future content, but really only as an addition to monster hunting.


First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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For the rune armour argument, this is obsolete since Jagex didn't realize their game would get so far. Rune at 99 smithing? Oh yay...

And more and more I'm getting the feeling that pretty much every issue in the game can be traced back to legacy issues with short-sighted patches (understatement of the year).

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Challenges like jad are very nice, but it's really only a one time ticket. I really can't understand why monster hunting can't be the fundamental source of wealth in scape as it has been for a while- it is a great way to introduce new items, is always challenging and can be updated to be ''handed down'' to lower levels. You also don't need to kill the bosses for those specific desired items, instead having a choice between many different ones of varying profitability, difficulty and consistency of loot. Now all we have to do is accept jagex has made this game combat and primarily monster hunting based.

 

And yes, ports armor is a great example of how they can release future content, but really only as an addition to monster hunting.

The problem is not monster hunting being a fundamental source of wealth. The problem is that apart of staking/gambling it's the only reasonable one. In other words - we need skilling ALTERNATIVES (not top money makers but at least being on par with monster hunting)

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Challenges like jad are very nice, but it's really only a one time ticket. I really can't understand why monster hunting can't be the fundamental source of wealth in scape as it has been for a while- it is a great way to introduce new items, is always challenging and can be updated to be ''handed down'' to lower levels. You also don't need to kill the bosses for those specific desired items, instead having a choice between many different ones of varying profitability, difficulty and consistency of loot. Now all we have to do is accept jagex has made this game combat and primarily monster hunting based.

 

And yes, ports armor is a great example of how they can release future content, but really only as an addition to monster hunting.

The problem is not monster hunting being a fundamental source of wealth. The problem is that apart of staking/gambling it's the only reasonable one. In other words - we need skilling ALTERNATIVES (not top money makers but at least being on par with monster hunting)

 

Or alternatives like PoP...


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?~ Marianne Williamson

 

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The real problem with making any skilling profitable by making the rewards usefull to combat players (this seems to be the most profitable skilling, e.g. chinchompas, sharks back in the day, etc.) is that it soon becomes botted because skilling in and of itself is mindless and easy for a bot to do. Make a profitable skilling activity that is hard to do, or requires a group-oriented effort. But let's be honest then people will complain that it's not in the spirit of RS for us to have to try more than click and AFK (remind anyone of EoC?) or it will be obselete content because of the effort required.

 

Also, since PvP is essentially dead the demand for consumables such as potions and food has dramatically dropped. There's also a huge incentive for players to level up certain skills such as herblore which make the xp worth more than the coin, therefore it costs to level.


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For the rune armour argument, this is obsolete since Jagex didn't realize their game would get so far. Rune at 99 smithing? Oh yay...

 

It seems fairly likely that in the near(ish) future a mining and smithing overhaul update will happen lowering the skill level to make those items but for that to happen they will need to plan content for levels 50+ which may in turn make those skills valuable again, for a short while at least.

 

The issue exists that PVM is a great way to make money and that money is normally spent on artificially increasing the speed those players can level buyable skills which makes them less niche and this stems all the way back to the games original design plan; any player can do anything, no classes or restrictions on any content based on player decisions.


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Challenges like jad are very nice, but it's really only a one time ticket. I really can't understand why monster hunting can't be the fundamental source of wealth in scape as it has been for a while- it is a great way to introduce new items, is always challenging and can be updated to be ''handed down'' to lower levels. You also don't need to kill the bosses for those specific desired items, instead having a choice between many different ones of varying profitability, difficulty and consistency of loot. Now all we have to do is accept jagex has made this game combat and primarily monster hunting based.

 

And yes, ports armor is a great example of how they can release future content, but really only as an addition to monster hunting.

@Fallstar said in reply to your own post, in the previous thread, that nothing in EoCscape gives the same sense of achievement as the Fire Cape used to. If the challenge is what you're after so much, why do you need some monetary reward as well? Surely the thrill of the challenge and the prestige of doing it is enough, as it was for Jad for so many different players over so many years.

 

I'm trying to make this argument easy for you. We're getting bogged down in this "monster hunting vs alternative wealth sources RE: wealth creation" debate. We could both agree to avoid the farce completely by saying: "We'd just like something to give us a real challenge, and we're not bothered about grinding it or getting rich from it."

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The problem is not monster hunting being a fundamental source of wealth. The problem is that apart of staking/gambling it's the only reasonable one. In other words - we need skilling ALTERNATIVES (not top money makers but at least being on par with monster hunting)

I think jagex made the decision for us that skills are only to support otherwise combat based activities. I'd have nothing against skilling becoming an alternative to monster hunting, but i just can't see such a radical shift in jagex thinking.


First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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The problem is not monster hunting being a fundamental source of wealth. The problem is that apart of staking/gambling it's the only reasonable one. In other words - we need skilling ALTERNATIVES (not top money makers but at least being on par with monster hunting)

I think jagex made the decision for us that skills are only to support otherwise combat based activities. I'd have nothing against skilling becoming an alternative to monster hunting, but i just can't see such a radical shift in jagex thinking.

 

Has this ever not been the case? Has there ever been content which was highly profitable with no real combat relevance?

 

The issue here is two-fold: the nature of the game means that any high-end, challenging content needs to be combat-based, and that the changes made by EoC have made the majority of skilling output worthless compared. Fletching no longer has massive demand for bows because alching is falling out of favour as a method of training magic and the most popular ammunition choices are obtained exclusively by drops from level 200+ monsters. Hunter produces essentially no output worth using. And so on.

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Real problem here seems to be that people aren't willing to put in the work and the time to achieve something, that other people have.

Expensive top tier items are good because it gives people something to work for and then has the benefit of being top tier armour.


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Expensive top tier items are good because it gives people something to work for

 

Only if they can realistically work for it. If the top tier stuff takes over 1000 hours of grinding to obtain, IMO it's not laziness if I don't want to do it.

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Expensive top tier items are good because it gives people something to work for

Only if they can realistically work for it. If the top tier stuff takes over 1000 hours of grinding to obtain, IMO it's not laziness if I don't want to do it.

That is a given. A good thing there are no such items.

 

The most pointless items still are imbued rings, which take ~25 hours to obtain for .3% crit boost.

Nex equipment, by comparison, takes less time typically (except torva because of drygore-based melee bias, ok) because most pieces are under 75m, many under 50m even. 2-3m/h is quite doable.


Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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My issue with the game as it is now is that the the non combat skills have become second class. If your not boss fighting, merchanting, or gambling hosting, then your poor. End of story. This thread has reminded me of a time long gone when the income disparity was not so bad, when hunter was more money than many combat activities. The fighters have always been wealthy, but for a long time there was also a dependancy on the skillers that doesn't seem to exist.

This is due in no small part to skilling bots. If gamers had to really on non-botters for the supplies generated by skilling, skilling would be a much more lucrative endeavor.

Too true. We almost got to see what the game arguably should look like during the bot nuke, though I'm not sure it really lasted long enough for the game to properly start running out of supplies on a global scale. Wasn't really paying attention, I spent two weeks in the sorceress garden because it was actually possible to do well for that brief moment in time (and I got freaking good at it too, was a lot of fun).

 

As for the non combat skills ever being true competition for the combats...yes and no. I think Hunter probably holds the record for profitability outside combat, mostly enjoying the collasal xp rate that is chinchompas and the demand that comes with it. The skill could give out very high profits back when boss hunting was much less lucrative, and more recently grenwalls have been quite impressive, though nothing compared to contemporary boss hunting of any quality. I don't think any other non combat has ever matched hunter, though I feel like either herblore or farming was once extremly lucrative (maybe both?).

 

And going with what I just posted, this does lay not insignificantly at the hands of the bots and gold farmers, but where combat has become many times over as profitable as it once was, most of the still profitable skills are a fraction of their income several years back, with fishing being an easy example.

 

Of course another problem is the rise of the everyman, and the skill cape. When a skill such as cooking stopped being a means to an end, people trained it for the sake of training it, and not as an extension of their own lively hood. Suddenly the xp is worth more to people who want it, and many people who fight can also cook (and even catch) their own food, so there is just less need.

 

And maybe all this is the inevitable conclusion of a game without classes. By leaving people free to train any skill they wish without restriction, some of the specialty markets will start to fall to people who would rather do it themselves. I know I've never needed to buy my own food, except for brews for a couple fights. Everything else I can supply in house, and always have.

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Perhaps Nature runes (91+ rc tho) and farming for sure if you count in the time it takes...

 

Other then that they never made much moneys =/


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?~ Marianne Williamson

 

For account help/issues, please follow this link:

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Personally the only thing I have against unreachable high level items is when they have a unique ability incomparable to the lower tiers. That was why torva+divine was such a brutal combo back in the day compared to the norm, the life boost and damage reduction were abilities that the lower classes simply had no access to. Now life boost is on every piece of armor so that's not as big of a deal. Really the only things I'm miffed about is the nex armor damage boost and the fact that drygores transcend the combat triangle, besides that I'm ok with a slightly worse but similar item if it means I can invest money into my skills rather than my gear. Apologies for any typos, on my phone.

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99 Strength since 6/02/10 99 Attack since 9/19/10 99 Constitution since 10/03/10

99 Defense since 3/14/11 99 Slayer since 8/30/11 99 Summoning since 9/10/11

99 Ranged since 09/18/11 99 Magic since 11/12/11 99 Prayer since 11/15/11

99 Herblore since 3/29/12 99 Firemaking since 5/15/12 99 Smithing since 10/04/12

99 Crafting since 9/16/13 99 Agility since 9/23/13 99 Dungeoneering since 1/1/14

99 Fishing since 2/4/14 99 Mining since 2/28/14 99 Farming since 6/04/14

99 Cooking since 6/11/14 99 Runecrafting since 10/10/14 99 Fletching since 11/11/14

99 Thieving since 11/14/14 99 Woodcutting since 11/20/14 99 Construction since 12/03/14

99 Divination since 2/22/15 99 Hunter since 2/23/15 99 Invention since 01/20/17
Quest Point Cape since 08/20/09
Maxed since 2/23/15 Fire Cape since 02/27/13
Slayer: 3 Leaf-Bladed Swords, 8 Black Masks, 2 Hexcrests, 26 Granite Mauls, 5 Focus Sights, 32 Abyssal Whips, 9 Dark Bows, 1 Whip Vine, 3 Staffs of Light, 15 Polypore Sticks

Dragon: 9 Draconic Visages, 7 Shield Left Halves, 20 Dragon Boots, 40 Dragon Med Helms, 8 Dragon Platelegs, 6 Dragon Spears, 20 Dragon Daggers, 5 Dragon Plateskirts, 1 Dragon Chainbody, 63 Off-hand Dragon Throwing Axes, 19 Dragon Longswords, 27 Dragon Maces, 1 Dragon Ward
Treasure Trails: Saradomin Full Helm, Ranger Boots, Rune Body (t), Saradomin Vambraces, Various God Pages
Misc:1 Onyx,1 Ahrim's Hood, 1 Guthan's Chainskirt, 1 Demon Slayer Boots

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It's funny to see people forget about all the skilling moneymakers to the point that they practically don't even exist in time anymore. I, for one, made my first fortunes from skills, not combat, as it was easier back in the day. In addition to rune mining, which was somewhat dangerous but could yeild high profits, runecrafting was and had been the one skill skillers could cling to to make a significant amount of money. Hunter never really was a very good moneymaker before grenwalls, and has always been botted heavily.

 

As for how hard it is to obtain these expensive items, assuming you are any good at automatons/glacors/qbd, 3-5m an hour is easily achievable with monsterhunting topping out at around 10-15m an hour with duo KK/nex. These items aren't super hard to get like perhaps divine/ely used to or partyhats are, you just need to invest some time into it.


First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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assuming you are any good at automatons/glacors/qbd, 3-5m an hour is easily achievable

 

I would like to see how you can kill more than 100 glacors an hour to grab upwards of ~5m gross gp/hr. Similarly, if the QBD is worth approximately 200k-250k a kill, how do you kill 20-25 an hour? You pulled those numbers out of your rear and you know it. 3m is the max gross income of these activities.


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