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Yoko Kurama

High Tier Item Access

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We can largely agree with that setup.

 

My only suggestion would be to involve the gathering skills in the smithing/crafting/runecrafting of those top tier body/leg pieces, and make it able for the raw materials for those armours to be traded. So, you can buy all the raw materials for the armour beforehand, (and this provides a market for skillers) or you can choose to gather them yourself, but it still takes a long time and a very high skill level to actually process the armour--perhaps something similar to PoP scrolls, but more focused around the smithing/crafting/runecrafting skill itself.

 

Unfortunately, Jagex appears to have no plans for following that model, given they just released a ring via a quest reward, which has well and truly put DK rings in the coffin.

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Now we have this bizarre trend where skills cannot actually generate wealth for players, and the best gear is restricted to a few parasitic players who stand around merching/staking/gambling.

 

I made 1b in 2 weeks doing KK in void, which is free. Don't assume everyone who is rich is scum.

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Don't assume everyone who is rich is scum.

 

and this is real problem. Ppl moan how hord it is to get good items instad of do something and get them.


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Don't assume everyone who is rich is scum.

 

and this is real problem. Ppl moan how hord it is to get good items instad of do something and get them.

 

I agree with this, except their argument will instantly turn into something like "It shouldn't take that long".

This isn't the first thread on the subject, and it won't be the last, because people will always be lazy or jealous and assume everyone is against them and cheated.

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Moaning because people moan, or moaning because other people are lazy is hardly a solid basis for a rational discussion. Again, let's leave the mud slinging for another time.

Being called a cheater and a parasite in the OP makes this a great basis for discussion. Just because you don't want to discuss it doesn't give you the right to say what we can and cannot discuss.

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Rechecking the OP, I can't see where he calls you specifically a cheat. Although you were right to point out not all rich people are "scum", the OP never said anything about people who MH for money and the post was clearly directed at those who gamble/stake, which doesn't include you.

 

If you've chosen to take offence at a post which was clearly not aimed towards you, then you're really proving my point about how such a negative argument isn't the basis of a rational discussion, from either side's perspective.

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Rechecking the OP, I can't see where he calls you specifically a cheat. Although you were right to point out not all rich people are "scum", the OP never said anything about people who MH for money and the post was clearly directed at those who gamble/stake, which doesn't include you.

 

If you've chosen to take offence at a post which was clearly not aimed towards you, then you're really proving my point about how such a negative argument isn't the basis of a rational discussion, from either side's perspective.

 

The best gear is restricted to a few parasitic players who stand around merching/staking/gambling.

Read that line again.

 

I have the best gear, I guess I must automatically merch/stake/gamble right?

 

Lumping people together based on assumptions is what starts problems.

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My previous post said you were right to challenge that misconception. What was wrong was where kamil basically did the same thing by saying (which you agreed with):

Ppl moan how hord it is to get good items instad of do something and get them.

So, we're agreeing that this style of posting is assumptive, baseless, provocative... and therefore in no-one's interest, then?

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What we need for the new skills is a system like in world of warcraft, where you need to buy new patterns to level up. IE at level 1 you buy the ability to do the skill, and get 1 thing to make/do, by level 10 that thing doesn't level you anymore and you need to buy another ability for 10k which lasts for 5 levels then you can buy a few more things for 50k each, etc up to high 90's where each pattern costs you 1mil+ and you can only use them for a level or two so you have to buy new patterns to keep leveling.

 

A system like this reduces the amount of supply ingame because its not worth making things if they don't give xp for the most part, and this allows skilling of all tiers to be viable for everyone in the future, along with this its a fantastic money sink because if people want to get 99 they need to spend the money.


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My previous post said you were right to challenge that misconception. What was wrong was where kamil basically did the same thing by saying (which you agreed with):

Ppl moan how hord it is to get good items instad of do something and get them.

So, we're agreeing that this style of posting is assumptive, baseless, provocative... and therefore in no-one's interest, then?

Most of this thread has been moaning about gp rates, so his argument does have some point.

 

Why are you making this a meta argument about logistics? Don't even answer that, please. You are trying to find fault for the sake of finding fault.

My point is that not everyone who has money is how OP makes them out.

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I made 1b in 2 weeks doing KK in void, which is free.

20 or so hours plus however long it takes to get chaotics and overloads/curses is free? :huh:

 

Not to detract from anything, I've seen that one brought up in Codguy often enough to be wary around it.

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From a baseline of max stats, ovl/turm/chaotics are all free, void/whisper/imbueds etc. are not. It's not like you're going to max out and not end up with overloads/chaotics/turmoil, though you might be out of cash. A max-based perspective doesn't fit casual players, but if you do intend to max out, you can't count (say) 80-99 dg both as 40 hours skilling time and 40 hours getting 5 chaotics. One of them is going to be free.


Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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I made 1b in 2 weeks doing KK in void, which is free.

20 or so hours plus however long it takes to get chaotics and overloads/curses is free? :huh:

 

Not to detract from anything, I've seen that one brought up in Codguy often enough to be wary around it.

 

If we are comparing most of the people complaining in this thread, they already have access to that or can get access to that if they put in more time. EVERYTHING in this game is a grind. I really don't understand why people play it and expect anything less.

 

If you aren't going to put in the time, or you don't have the time, you aren't getting max gear. It's simple really. Also, the useful application of that gear are things that also require a lot of time. For someone who only plays an hour a day, what do you possibly need Torva+Divine for? To look cool and to stroke your ego? Because that's really one of the only practical uses of it if you don't play much.

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It's bad when the elite items are OP as [bleep]. A guy in full Nex gear + Divine was pretty much unstoppable by anyone with "normal" gear prior to EOC.

 

Better to keep the elite items like dragon equipment used to be or like 3rd age. Let the rich have their fun collecting it, but don't make it infinitely better than its alternatives.

 

Unstoppable by who? Are you referring to pking? If you are, who the hell pks in full nex and divine anyway?

 

If you are referring to pvm, nex gear is not even the "top" gear. Void and chaotic shield/dual wield are often the best for pretty much every boss. And you can camp gwd with zero food in barrows gear with soul split, and get pretty damn close to the same kills per hour as any other gear.

 

So please tell me what is so op about nex gear in the first place.

 

He clearly said pre-eoc...

 

 

I made 1b in 2 weeks doing KK in void, which is free.

20 or so hours plus however long it takes to get chaotics and overloads/curses is free? :huh:

 

Not to detract from anything, I've seen that one brought up in Codguy often enough to be wary around it.

 

I think he meant the void is free.

 

 

We can largely agree with that setup.

 

My only suggestion would be to involve the gathering skills in the smithing/crafting/runecrafting of those top tier body/leg pieces, and make it able for the raw materials for those armours to be traded. So, you can buy all the raw materials for the armour beforehand, (and this provides a market for skillers) or you can choose to gather them yourself, but it still takes a long time and a very high skill level to actually process the armour--perhaps something similar to PoP scrolls, but more focused around the smithing/crafting/runecrafting skill itself.

 

Unfortunately, Jagex appears to have no plans for following that model, given they just released a ring via a quest reward, which has well and truly put DK rings in the coffin.

 

I could also agree with this, but make the armours only being able to be crafted from the resources gathered by smithers and a few unique pieces gathered by monster hunting in combination.


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If we are comparing most of the people complaining in this thread, they already have access to that or can get access to that if they put in more time. EVERYTHING in this game is a grind. I really don't understand why people play it and expect anything less.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with what you're saying, it's just a bit of semantics that I'm surprised hasn't been brought up yet.

 

It's also worth noting that nobody's complaining about the grind, they're wondering whether the amount of grinding is appropriate, and (to a lesser extent) whether or not the top-tier equipment should continue to be dropped by bosses exclusively.

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There's bosses and there's regular monsters. Basically:

 

1) Bosses (chance to die, especially if you mess up)

2) Monsters (killed individually)

3) Species (starts at mass murder, goes up to genocide-level kph)

 

Imo category 3 is just lame, better to have an interesting category-2 monster for higher levels (like elite black knights over regular, glacors over icefiends/elementals or w/e).

 

Ideally I'd say,

3) only drops resources, like bones, hides, ashes, essence, ores, seeds, logs, feathers and whatnot,

2) drops lesser unique drops (e.g. glacor boots, cresbot gloves),

1) drops greater unique drops (Nex, KK).

 

Then you tier minigames and skilling method into those tiers. Atm, dungeoneering, being a whole rather big skill, is in the 1 and 2 range with chaotics & spirit cape etc.. Dominion tower, MA etc. are 2 - lesser, but unique. Ports, 1, elite diaries, 2 mostly. Trouble balance-wise is, most skills are 3. Herblore would be 1, probably summoning/prayer as well, you could say that a lot of quest reqs are in the 1-2 range, but nearly everything past that is just useless. Ports is the first instance of skilling category 1 since overloads, and it doesn't even use the skills themselves, it's just an access requirement.


Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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Had a really long post, but then I realized something. The second you get your drygores... that's it. There is nothing else for you to get that is possibly better in the weapons category (at least not in the non-dg game). Granted, by that point let's be reasonable and assume you've got maxed stats/high dg for at least 2 chaotics, so the rest of the money you'll make is just going to go into buyables. At a 1.5m/hr moneymaker (which is possible at QBD WITHOUT super-antifires), it'll take around 67 hours of grinding time to get drygores (assuming 100m for both), which will only go down in time.

 

Goes back to what Alg asked... just what is considered a "reasonable" grind time for something? I guess it depends on how you're grinding for it too, qbd is slightly more varied than say, mining a resource. A combo of QBD + Farming seems pretty "lax" compared to any alternative for a non-maxed player, so it's not TOO bad. ~50 hours of grinding (farming runs as well as QBD) seems reasonable for the strongest weapons in game.


45,657th to 99 Range 29/09/09 , 41,018th to 99 Mage 13/11/09

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Goes back to what Alg asked... just what is considered a "reasonable" grind time for something? I guess it depends on how you're grinding for it too, qbd is slightly more varied than say, mining a resource. A combo of QBD + Farming seems pretty "lax" compared to any alternative for a non-maxed player, so it's not TOO bad. ~50 hours of grinding (farming runs as well as QBD) seems reasonable for the strongest weapons in game.

I have to wonder if they'll make chaotics easier to get if it ever comes to that point. Especially when drygores get dethroned as the best weapons in the game, we may get to the point where it takes considerably longer to get level 80 equipment than 90 or higher if you're starting completely from scratch.

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But you also have to take into consideration that getting the DG necessary for chaotics also gives access to a few other things, like different items (I.e Arc stream, bone crusher, herb cleaner), so the grind for isn't like mobilising armies, where you're doing it for the sole purpose of only 1 or 2 items. Either way getting back on topic, I do like how the Superior Eastern armours are laid out, anyone can effectively access them with a single 90+ skill.

 

When smithin gets re-worked I imagine it'll be a LOT more useful and will be able to add bonuses to weapons/armour


45,657th to 99 Range 29/09/09 , 41,018th to 99 Mage 13/11/09

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I personally would like to see the game shift to where there are at least two items per slot per tier within a given style.. one made through skills and one from bosses/semi-bosses(like glacors). the skill based being slightly worse than the boss drop.. but the boss drop items aren't tradable.. so there would be a "common man's" set and a "pvmer" set.. that way the more elite players get better items but the rest of us that are working toward those goals have something to use also


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This is pretty much a response to the first post, so sorry if it's not on current-topic.

 

I really want to see lower-level gear able to be upgraded into higher-level gear via methods achievable with the lower-level gear. For a very specific example, I'd like to see, say, the QBD's Dragonbone Kits actually upgrade the stats of Dragon or Royal Dragonhide to something worth using at the levels required. For another, I'd like to see Nex and POP gear required for the creation of level 90 gear. As in, you would have to sacrifice both Torva and Tetsu (and Steadfasts and Pneumatics) for level 90 melee gear, rather than it just being dropped by some new really-hard-to-kill-until-exploit boss monster.

What I absolutely hate is that so many items require a much higher level to obtain them than you would possibly use them at (granite and dragon!), and things like Chaotics, which take so much time and effort to get are hardly factored into the equation of obtaining their replacers. If it had been up to me, I would have had the KK drop only UPGRADE pieces, intended to bring Chaotic weapons up to level 90, so that all that previous work spent obtaining them wasn't rendered entirely meaningless. I'm not saying I would rather have people use a Bronze Longsword, constantly upgrading, eventually to a Drygore Longsword, though. I just think that no "difficult to get" gear should be rendered completely worthless at higher levels.

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This is pretty much a response to the first post, so sorry if it's not on current-topic.

 

I really want to see lower-level gear able to be upgraded into higher-level gear via methods achievable with the lower-level gear. For a very specific example, I'd like to see, say, the QBD's Dragonbone Kits actually upgrade the stats of Dragon or Royal Dragonhide to something worth using at the levels required. For another, I'd like to see Nex and POP gear required for the creation of level 90 gear. As in, you would have to sacrifice both Torva and Tetsu (and Steadfasts and Pneumatics) for level 90 melee gear, rather than it just being dropped by some new really-hard-to-kill-until-exploit boss monster.

What I absolutely hate is that so many items require a much higher level to obtain them than you would possibly use them at (granite and dragon!), and things like Chaotics, which take so much time and effort to get are hardly factored into the equation of obtaining their replacers. If it had been up to me, I would have had the KK drop only UPGRADE pieces, intended to bring Chaotic weapons up to level 90, so that all that previous work spent obtaining them wasn't rendered entirely meaningless. I'm not saying I would rather have people use a Bronze Longsword, constantly upgrading, eventually to a Drygore Longsword, though. I just think that no "difficult to get" gear should be rendered completely worthless at higher levels.

 

Seems like a fault of the reward design with Dungeoneering to me. They've backed themselves into a corner where their only two options are:-

 

1) Make 80 dungeoneering a requirement for every good item that will ever be released into the future.

2) Make Dungeoneering dead content when the equipment is eventually obviated.

 

If and when player-owned-ports armour is supplanted, that will likely have the same problem -- I don't want to see spending four months (or however much it is; I'm just going by what i've been told ingame and I'm sure some hyperpedantic [wagon] will go ape at me, like usual on TIF, if I don't qualify this statement) playing that minigame becoming a gateway to all high-level content, but it's too popular in its own right for me to like the idea of it being worthless. I think this may be a reason why Jagex often shies away from making high level stuff untradable: tradable gear has the potential to become relevant to lower levels than the people it was originally aimed at, whereas untradable gear often doesn't. And it's much harder to keep this sort of thing dynamic in cases like Dungeoneering where the amount of effort to get the untradables exists in a single linear scale that can never change short of direct nerfs/buffs to the content.

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