30-Apr-2013 - Instanced God Wars & EoC Updates

[Binary Mage]

With permissions of Q and Binary Mage, I would like to start with a preliminary outline to post on the RSOF that incorporates both of your posts. Of course I cannot post this out of name of TIF without permission from the admins, but it would be a good start to already make a decent constructive feedback.

I'm perfectly fine with you using my post for that :) It'd be nice if you would source or quote me for the parts that are my ideas, but I'm not going to force you to.

 

The RSOF might not be the place I would personally choose to put something like that (considering the level of negativity and ignorance that seems to generally flood any intelligent discussion over there) but it's definitely not going to hurt anything. Jmods do seem to check fan-sites just as much as they do the RSOF--perhaps it would be a more effctive idea to do something (not entirely sure what) on our end of the discussion, where the best ideas can filter to the top instead of being drowned in the mass of EoC suggestions on the RSOF (that seem to mostly amount to "remove it and change things back to the way they were").

[Miss Lioness]

With permissions of Q and Binary Mage, I would like to start with a preliminary outline to post on the RSOF that incorporates both of your posts. Of course I cannot post this out of name of TIF without permission from the admins, but it would be a good start to already make a decent constructive feedback.

I'm perfectly fine with you using my post for that :) It'd be nice if you would source or quote me for the parts that are my ideas, but I'm not going to force you to.

 

The RSOF might not be the place I would personally choose to put something like that (considering the level of negativity and ignorance that seems to generally flood any intelligent discussion over there) but it's definitely not going to hurt anything. Jmods do seem to check fan-sites just as much as they do the RSOF--perhaps it would be a more effctive idea to do something (not entirely sure what) on our end of the discussion, where the best ideas can filter to the top instead of being drowned in the mass of EoC suggestions on the RSOF (that seem to mostly amount to "remove it and change things back to the way they were").

 

If they do visit fansites, I wonder why they never post or something like the Gowers did years back.

[Quyneax]

While I agree with Binary Mage that EoC is not wholly bad and does not need to be removed, I think it definitely needs major fixes before it is great (minor will not do), and that there were a lot of big changes that could've been made that weren't made, for example the prayer point cap boost, strength for range/mage as well and suchlike. The goal is not to make a workable system, the goal is to make it a positive example for similar games all around. That means accounting for the unique tick-based system that RS has, which means RS is like a super-fast-paced turn-based RPG, with the limit being how much you can do in a tick.

 

Anyway, I'll go post the list on HLF now :P. Feel free to plaster it anywhere else as well :).

 

 

Edit: HLF: [qfc]260-261-963-64957031[/qfc]

[Fallstar]

No point linking HLF Threads, they don't load even if you're logged into forums. Also you should be a JMod.

[Leon S]

Does anyone know how potions work now?

 

Using Dismember and a super strength potion (13 levels), my damage was increased by 24 only.

[Ammako]

Strength was not made to affect your damage any more than it did since November 20th 2012.

[strilmus]

i tried that, for ages, at every opportunity, to explain my point, way before any of these changes actually occurred, or were even believed to be happening to begin with

 

ALMOST ALL OF THOSE POSTS were ignored because they were apparently too long to read

 

but it's difficult to summarize the effects and nuances of these kinds of updates in the kind of pithy one liners that seek to shut everybody up instead of discussing it

 

in addition to people not even wanting to discuss it at all because at the time everybody just thought "well if it's not going to change why should we be talking about it"

 

AND NOW HERE WE ARE AND SUDDENLY IT'S IMPORTANT NOW

 

maybe one day instead of burying your heads in the sand you'd stop to think about these things for once

 

okay

 

For example, take the view that "defensive" armors are useless. Tthey're not useless because they're defensive, they're useless because there's two "offensive" armors that offer ATTACK BONUSES. Now, back during the first part of EoC, they originally intended to separate armor from direct offensive ability, which is why they tore out the strength bonuses. This way, armors would be seen on their own merits (defense = defense) rather than maxbros saying "but whatever, I get a minor attack bonus on this armor so it's the best forever" and wearing neit helms and fighter torsos until the end of [bleep]ing time.

 

You know what happened after it went live?

 

EVERYBODY [bleep]ING [bleep]ED AND WHINED ABOUT IT FOR A MONTH AND ALL "BOOHOO MY NEX ARMOR IS POINTLESS". AND THEN THEY PUT IT BACK IN.

 

So, now we have the same problem again! Imagine that.

 

do you see what i have to work with here? i may just have to flip a table!

 

all i've learned from the past is that people wanted it so hard that jagex was able to justify making an old version of their game a viable part of their playerbase, and that whatever benefit we have from discussing the past is so weighted in the emotional baggage of a million nostalgia freaks that we can't have any compromises at all without setting the barn on fire

 

can you understand why i'm so unsympathetic to people who look at the past as far as runescape is concerned? there's no negotiation. it's like sitting in congress!

[Leon S]

Strength was not made to affect your damage any more than it did since November 20th 2012.

 

Potions gave an invisible boost for every boosted level. They've nerfed potions a lot in terms of damage.

[mousepad]

I've been inspired by the great idea's posted in this thread so far to throw my hat into the ring. I will base my ideas on what I think made runescape such an addictive game for me between 2003-2011.

 

Jagex wanted to make combat more interactive and balance the combat triangle. I would argue that each combat style had plenty of good uses, and there was plenty of reason to train each skill, but the community at large seems to think 'something must be done!'.

 

Armour:

The old point system for armour should be brought back. Stab/Slash/Crush defense stats as well as Prayer bonuses.

There doesn't need to be armour for each tier in each combat style, but I think the damage has already been done there.

For the purposes of balancing the 3 combat styles, each style should have the same amount of bonus.

What I mean is (logging onto 07 scape just to be sure I am right here) there used to be:

Attack bonus, defense bonus, and "other bonuses" which consisted of strength and prayer.

Magic and ranged should have always had their own "other bonuses" as well. They could be called "accuracy" and "focus" or something.

 

Jagex seems to (albeit just recently) be having a very hard time figuring out how to deal with armours that grant bonuses to damage dealt. Regardless of EoC or not, any armour that lets people deal more damage will always be favored over armour that has higher defense. Look no further than void sets. Until yesterday, they were heavily favored in pvm despite having low defense and lps (in eoc).

 

I would simplify these problems by having armour dropped as loot to come in 1 flavor. That armour could then be modified by its owner through some game mechanism (a wide amount of fun ways to go about doing this) it could have either spikes or hardened plates added to it. This would make the armour tank or dps armour, but it would have no impact on the value of the base armour.

 

Weapons:

Everyone knows the weapon doesn't make the man. A weapon is merely a tool that must be wielded by a skilled person to deal death and destruction. Runescape in the EoC has become a weapon (and armour to some extent) dominated game. This is nonsense. In runescape’s hay day, the most popular weapons were good, but the person levels of the person wielding it was what mattered. Once a whip could be equipped at level 70, there was still a massive amount of improvement to be unlocked by leveling up.

Weapons should be given their old stats back. I believe jagex did an excellent job of balancing the base stats of all melee weapons through chaotics. Ranged and magic weapons should would need to be rebalanced by adding in their new 'other bonus', and along with armour being reworked, the triangle would be balanced. Ranged and magic have an added cost (ammo) associated with them, but with the added benefit of being distance attacks. This is how it works in the real world, and the game should reflect that. Think of the Fallout games. The hand-to-hand skills main appeal is the 'unlimited ammo' side of using melee. Use the gun skill and you have ammo shortage to contend with. This is the stuff balance is made of.

 

Interactive Combat:

Jagex seems fixated on making combat more like every other game in existence. I guess 12 years of unmitigated success has them wondering where they went wrong. Anyway. The least obtrusive way to do this while still retaining what we liked about runescape combat would be to replace the special bar with a new combat skill called endurance. It would be like constitution in that you would gain xp while training any of the 3 combat styles. Xp would be granted when an ability is *successfully* used in combat. Abilities would need to be uniform across the 3 combat styles in their usefulness across the game. They wouldn't be abilities like in the EoC so get that out of your head right now. The fatigue bar would be like your health and prayer bars. It's natural state is full (amount based on level) and it is consumed when used (like prayer). To restore it would take potions or food or some new thing or combination thereof. It could be fully restored instantly by resting in a bed (like praying at an alter). These abilities could be like special moves. I don't need to do the footwork here, because that's not my job, that's jagex's.

 

The more powerful the ability used, presumable the higher your endurance level would need to be to use (like prayers!), and it would also consume more or less of your fatigue.

 

Armour and weapons could play a role in drain just like in prayer. Lighter armour uses less fatigue? Heavier weapons use more fatigue but deal more damage when using an ability? The concept is there, the hard work would be just figuring out all the numbers.

 

This would leave plenty of decisions for the players to make. That's what makes pvm and pvp fun in runescape for a lot of people. What's your load out for a given situation? How many fatigue restoring items will you bring instead of food? Do you want to use that godsword with its high strength bonus but it completely drains your fatigue in like 2 abilities?

 

NPC's.

By year 12 of runescape, jagex is contending with players that can exploit the highest level content in larger and larger numbers. They have seen the old prayer system as a limitation to more difficult bosses or something like that. I find this completely ridiculous. DKS, KQ, the GWD bosses, and Nex were killing players up to the minute the EoC went live. Combat can be plenty difficult under the old system. Just make an area a no prayer area if need be. The KQ has been using protection prayers since September 2004. Nex is a perfect example of how to make a boss difficult. She has 5 phases, prayers, uses ancient magic.

 

If jagex really wants to make bosses more difficult but doesn't want to release new ones, then they just need to buff her basic stats. Doing this is very unpopular after a certain period of time because people get used to something and get pissed when it's changed.

 

General notes and things I forgot to mention:

Max life points should be 990. The scales are all wacked out right now. Brews boosting life points over max works because potions boosting levels has been a part of the game and is logical. Putting on a piece of armour and suddenly having a higher life points max is a bit ridiculous. Nex armour doesn't need anything other than higher defense stats and "other bonuses" than normal gwd/barrows armour for people to want it a lot.

 

In a normal game area, prayer should block 100% like it used to. This was balanced out by the fact that prayer drained and had to be replentished at inconvienent locations or with an expensive potion.

 

Caps on things like soal split are stupid and frustraiting. They don't make the game more fun to play that's for sure.

 

That's all I have for now. I will add things as I think of them.

EDIT 1: Ok I forgot to mention that abilities should be used sparingly unlike today where you basically spam them in a rotation. They should also have a change to fail.

[strilmus]

wait wait wait

 

the stab/slash/crush defense point system was one of, if not THE MOST pointless things about the combat system, because nothing ever really used it enough to become a large factor, PLUS it causes all sorts of strange complications in the combat triangle as far as discrepancies go, the most obvious of which places higher priority on the melee attack system over the others, largely because they get handwave stats which by design caused their damage amd accuracy values to be inadequate in the first place

 

please explain why you want it back?

[Yoko Kurama]

This is one of the many things I can't stand about our community. You have two choices: optimized DPS, and absolutely nothing else. That's fine if you have limitless resources, it's utterly useless for everyone else.

 

The point I was trying to make wasn't that everything is optimal, it's that everything is viable. It might not be great, but using something other than the cookie-cutter-maxed-player-setup isn't as crippling as it was in the past. Not even too bothered by the fact that melee has drygores: one tier of weapons is a hell of a lot better from being the only style that you could use.

 

You need optimal or nearly optimal gear for high level activities. Good luck trying to get on a Nex team with PoP armour. Also, the fact that our high level armours which were advertised to be the best (PoP), and for which we made a considerable investment in are fairly worthless. What do you expect high levels to do? Herald this as some great day? The armour system is obviously flawed and it is particularly bad for high levels. The fact that Nex isn't instanced and there is fierce competition for worlds only makes this problem worse. Also, odd isn't it, that even some of the most elite players (level wise) have to settle for sub-optimal gear. Pretty much shows there's a flaw in the game. And before you should add "Well, that only applies to high levels.", yes, I'm a high level and I am voicing concerns which are relevant to my interests and problems in the game, just like every other player out there.

[mousepad]

wait wait wait

 

the stab/slash/crush defense point system was one of, if not THE MOST pointless things about the combat system, because nothing ever really used it enough to become a large factor, PLUS it causes all sorts of strange complications in the combat triangle as far as discrepancies go, the most obvious of which places higher priority on the melee attack system over the others, largely because they get handwave stats which by design caused their damage amd accuracy values to be inadequate in the first place

 

please explain why you want it back?

 

The numbers could be adjusted for balance, what I think worked well was the simplicity of the system. Right now it is exceedingly difficult to know exactly what the effect of a given loadout will be. Equipping the comp cape lowers defense for example.

 

The stab/slash/crush could just as well be collapsed to 'melee' and ranged and magic defense stats would be like they were.

[Quyneax]

@Mousepad: A skill for abilities only seems rather pointless to me, that's like saying I train my strength, my range/mage/melee attacking skills, but I need another skill to tell me how to move... isn't that pretty much by definition part of the skill of attacking/ranging/maging?

 

@strilmus: The problem was that no monsters bar waterfiends were sufficiently weak to a style. The problem post-EoC was that you couldn't get xp in the skills you want. A 3x3 weakness system means you have your clear weakness (e.g. stab), your minor weakness (slash, crush, arrow, ray) and your clear strengths (bolt, thrown, burst, missile). If you make clear strengths much stronger than weaknesses and actually use the system as well (giving different high-level monsters different weaknesses, none of the 'bosses have no weakness' crap), you can promote using 5/9 styles per monster. The idea being you can always use mage, ranged and melee (for xp gain) but only specific subgroup of these, or in the case of the style the monster is weak to, you can use any weapon of that style.

The reason for having a system like this at all is that just melee/range/mage is so boring... post-EoC RS has very, very little in the way of meta-able stats.

[Artemis1330]

Any changes to spirit shields with this update?

[kazumaishimaru]

If they do visit fansites, I wonder why they never post or something like the Gowers did years back.

Well, a few of them are pretty active over on reddit's section for runescape.

It might just be preference.

[mousepad]

@Mousepad: A skill for abilities only seems rather pointless to me, that's like saying I train my strength, my range/mage/melee attacking skills, but I need another skill to tell me how to move... isn't that pretty much by definition part of the skill of attacking/ranging/maging?

 

My line of thinking was that stamina/endurance or whatever would be like the physical conditioning aspect of fighting, and the combat skills would be like technique. I just think the continuity and consistency is important in a game, so having hp and prayer being based on skills but having this new bar (stamina) just kind of being different and on it's own would be inconsistent. Sure, I guess if jagex wanted to adopt the ideas of a random person who posted on a fansite forum.....

they could keep the adrenaline bar, rename it, change how it works, and I guess people wouldn't be too suprised :P

 

I think a complete overhaul is needed, and I am only offering what I think I would like because I find these thought experiments to be very fun.

 

--

 

Let's say it's 2011 and jagex is in the early stages of overhauling combat. I think we all know what their motivations were, but that is neither here nor' there I suppose. I think it would have been much less intrusive and a lot more fun if they had done something like this:

- overhaul magic and ranged gear to bring it's stats in line with melee. Roll out compriable weapons over the course of a year or whatever. There would have been many interesting ways to do this like adding items to existing monster's drop tables or creating new bosses or mini games or whatever. They could have done the overhaul to existing armour and weapons all at once (like adding a ranged str bonus to armadyl) and released new weapons compriable (not identical for the love of god) to their melee counterparts in a timely maner but not all at once.

Just a outright buff to ranged an magic would have worked fine. If balance is what people actually want, then there wouldn't be anything to complain about.

 

-Second, they could have introduced a new skill that would add a more interactive aspect to combat. They could have premised the addition by adding a really noobie basic quest like druidic ritual in which a vistor from a far away land rewards you for some chore by teaching you a very basic technique from his native land. This introduces your character to a new aspect of combat not previously known in runescape. Boom, now you have a logical reason for combat suddenly changing.

Build the changes around a skill and ease people into it.

[strilmus]

I think the main reason they removed weaknesses from bosses is because they didn't want everybody to wear the same thing and then cause the market to lean heavily on that one thing

 

ofc then they introduced level 90 melee weapons without the other weapons to go with it

 

i think they use a twister spin dial to decide how their releases are arranged

[aerendil]

Eight, So having just spent 6 hours at nex, I can say a few things on the topic of nex now... Please note these are just my observations, and could be wrong.

 

Section 1: How is nex different?

 

1:Contain attacks are much nicer and far more predictable. 2: Blood phase is harder, the blood sacrifice att has changed, and i'm pretty sure if you dont dodge it she heals 5-10% hps.

3: The DAMAGE CAPS on nex are gone, meaning you can hit 5-6k's ect, which makes drygores lovely.... on phases smoke-ice.... BUT....

4:Zaros Phase is (bleeping) rape. It is now easily as long as 2-3 phases put together; as her stats boost REAALLY boosts her, and her mage is pretty much garunteed to hit, and with ss on it makes it very hard to outdamage the healing.... You can't melee if she isn't praying range. Zaros phase is... horrific.

 

 

So, in light of this, the main tactics used now are a combination of Mage/Range, or Melee/range..... Mage/range is really good imo because mage has good mage def, and metamorph does the same thing as berserk, except without the doubled damage intake. Mage hits hard and well on nex now, and is definetly worth using... Range switch for minions (cap on them is removed too), and mage the rest of the time... Meta on blood and build extremely fast, as it's a complete [bleep] to get past blood duo/trio now.

 

Melee/range is the same, and I do think melee is slightly higher dps, but makes for far shorter trips due to the lost defence, and you HAVE to range zaros, because she rips through melee armour with mage like you wouldn't beleive....

 

 

Tanking hasn't changed at all, save for that the tank has to contribute a lot to Blood; with either drygores or dual weild mage and meta, or you will get stuck on blood (specially duo)

[mousepad]

Eight, So having just spent 6 hours at nex, I can say a few things on the topic of nex now... Please note these are just my observations, and could be wrong.

 

Section 1: How is nex different?

 

1:Contain attacks are much nicer and far more predictable. 2: Blood phase is harder, the blood sacrifice att has changed, and i'm pretty sure if you dont dodge it she heals 5-10% hps.

3: The DAMAGE CAPS on nex are gone, meaning you can hit 5-6k's ect, which makes drygores lovely.... on phases smoke-ice.... BUT....

4:Zaros Phase is (bleeping) rape. It is now easily as long as 2-3 phases put together; as her stats boost REAALLY boosts her, and her mage is pretty much garunteed to hit, and with ss on it makes it very hard to outdamage the healing.... You can't melee if she isn't praying range. Zaros phase is... horrific.

 

 

So, in light of this, the main tactics used now are a combination of Mage/Range, or Melee/range..... Mage/range is really good imo because mage has good mage def, and metamorph does the same thing as berserk, except without the doubled damage intake. Mage hits hard and well on nex now, and is definetly worth using... Range switch for minions (cap on them is removed too), and mage the rest of the time... Meta on blood and build extremely fast, as it's a complete [bleep] to get past blood duo/trio now.

 

Melee/range is the same, and I do think melee is slightly higher dps, but makes for far shorter trips due to the lost defence, and you HAVE to range zaros, because she rips through melee armour with mage like you wouldn't beleive....

 

 

Tanking hasn't changed at all, save for that the tank has to contribute a lot to Blood; with either drygores or dual weild mage and meta, or you will get stuck on blood (specially duo)

 

On Zaros, were you staying MD while ranging? I went to a mass to try and figure out the changes, and I found that staying at a distance and ranging while praying mage she still hit 1000-1700 basically every hit.

[Quyneax]

My line of thinking was that stamina/endurance or whatever would be like the physical conditioning aspect of fighting, and the combat skills would be like technique. I just think the continuity and consistency is important in a game, so having hp and prayer being based on skills but having this new bar (stamina) just kind of being different and on it's own would be inconsistent. Sure, I guess if jagex wanted to adopt the ideas of a random person who posted on a fansite forum.....

they could keep the adrenaline bar, rename it, change how it works, and I guess people wouldn't be too suprised :P

 

I think a complete overhaul is needed, and I am only offering what I think I would like because I find these thought experiments to be very fun.

 

--

 

Let's say it's 2011 and jagex is in the early stages of overhauling combat. I think we all know what their motivations were, but that is neither here nor' there I suppose. I think it would have been much less intrusive and a lot more fun if they had done something like this:

- overhaul magic and ranged gear to bring it's stats in line with melee. Roll out compriable weapons over the course of a year or whatever. There would have been many interesting ways to do this like adding items to existing monster's drop tables or creating new bosses or mini games or whatever. They could have done the overhaul to existing armour and weapons all at once (like adding a ranged str bonus to armadyl) and released new weapons compriable (not identical for the love of god) to their melee counterparts in a timely maner but not all at once.

Just a outright buff to ranged an magic would have worked fine. If balance is what people actually want, then there wouldn't be anything to complain about.

 

-Second, they could have introduced a new skill that would add a more interactive aspect to combat. They could have premised the addition by adding a really noobie basic quest like druidic ritual in which a vistor from a far away land rewards you for some chore by teaching you a very basic technique from his native land. This introduces your character to a new aspect of combat not previously known in runescape. Boom, now you have a logical reason for combat suddenly changing.

Build the changes around a skill and ease people into it.

Well first of all, stamina and endurance and physical conditioning are called Strength, Constitution and Agility :P. That's one reason I feel that making another 'general physique' skill is unnecessary. Also, if you make strength affect ranged & magic damage (as it really ought to, it takes a lot of strength to draw bows for example) then you have your all-round skill that also gives abilities. If you wanted to, you could even add agility to certain special techniques (mostly thinking grappling and dual wield here).

 

It really wouldn't make sense to introduce a new technique from a foreign land, not as a skill (as Livid Farm/training area is another matter). Martial arts around the world differ only in flavour - a western pankration expert can fight an eastern karate expert just as well, as they both do about the same thing (like, using their body and stuff). So unless you're going to introduce 'chi' fighting or w/e, it's not logical that a veteran fighter would have to start at zero with a new skill. We have the Western idea that samurai are really awesomely skilled guys and European knights really just cut things up with super heavy swords, but that's due to Renaissance propganda concerning the 'Dark Ages' (the names come from glorifying the Greeks and Romans and the time after the 'middle ages' :P).

 

Incidentally, not bringing a shield to a 2h fight is realistic, if I recall a visit to a British castle correctly. I asked the reenactors, and they said a shield would basically be cut up before blocking anything useful. Some of the damage from 2h weapons is from crushing through the shield anyway (dislocate shoulder and whatnot).

 

Quite agreed with the observation about equipment.

 

(also 10k posts woo)

[Cheat]

Off topic ish but that is quite interesting thought actually that has never come across my me before. If you took the force of a 2h sword to a shield held in a single arm you would almost definitely break your clavicle.

[Ambler]

I'm guessing the best thing to do on blood phase now is have everyone bring royal/zaryte bows, tag nex the far wall, go to center, kill reavers before she jumps to center, then hopefully it makes it only 1-2 siphons. :lol:

Or have tank shield and tank out reavers? Idk.

[J35u5_M4]

Off topic ish but that is quite interesting thought actually that has never come across my me before. If you took the force of a 2h sword to a shield held in a single arm you would almost definitely break your clavicle.

 

Not in dark souls

[Alg]

Not in dark souls

It's easier to list the things your shield can't block in Dark Souls.

 

That said, this is a fantasy game. There are some bits of realism that just wouldn't be very fun.

[aerendil]

 

 

Tanking hasn't changed at all, save for that the tank has to contribute a lot to Blood; with either drygores or dual weild mage and meta, or you will get stuck on blood (specially duo)

 

On Zaros, were you staying MD while ranging? I went to a mass to try and figure out the changes, and I found that staying at a distance and ranging while praying mage she still hit 1000-1700 basically every hit.

 

yea on zaros the tank md's, but she still mages a ton and blows holes in the attackers, my attackers ONLY had to eat on zaros, but they went through 5-10 food/zaros phase