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chenw

30-Apr-2013 - Instanced God Wars & EoC Updates

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Laughing at how this conversation is discussing the regression of the game.




Maxed [February 14, 2012] | Completionist [October 25, 2012] | Trimmed Completionist [in Progress]

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I wouldn't be surprised if they do a "traditional combat" referendum eventually lol

I would.

 

There was the referendum for Wilderness and Free Trade because reverting the trade limits and all that stuff didn't require a lot of programming time.

 

Making a referendum to remove the EoC... Well for one it wouldn't pass, and as such would be a huge waste of time, but also, as mentioned, EoC has been in development for close to eleven months as of now. They're not going to throw away eleven months worth of programming and 'testing' time.

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I for one enjoy eoc combat vs traditional

 

It wasnt fun clicking on a boss mob and alt tabbing.


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I for one enjoy eoc combat vs traditional

 

It wasnt fun clicking on a boss mob and alt tabbing.

Skill was always present in bossing.

 

For example at bandos boss solo with divine, you could be there on 200 hp, watching your prayer points - if they went down it meant a koing hit was incoming, and you'd need to brew, otherwise you could continue risking so you could SS back the hp on minions without needing to dip into your supplies. Similarly with timing brews to your overload timer. Making sure your overloads, overall cost you no hp to use.

 

Or a personal favourite was corporeal beast, but without losing a single attack turn throughout the fight, without lowered stats. This meant brewing only before the overload restore timer, and living the rest of the fight off soulsplit & summoning potions. There was a huge amount of skill involved there, and I can tell you that from experience at corporeal beast ffa back then. In an 8 man team, I would get 90% of the kills per trip. More than clicking the boss and alt-tabbing, and it was a huge amount of fun.

 

Looking further back in time, sara soloing before the room was shrunk. That was a highly skilled boss fight. You'd ko one mini you'd redbarred on the previous kill, go to the other minis safewall, safely kill the mage, and redbar the remaining minion to repeat for the next fight.

 

The old system required a lot of skill.

 

Edit: Mind you most of what I just was talking about was in runescape before HP became constitution, so I probably didn't have access to the things that made it as easy as you imply.

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Making a referendum to remove the EoC... Well for one it wouldn't pass,

 

How do you know this? If anything people are getting quite tired of the affair (even those who supported it zealously, such as myself). Things are still a mess -- every 2-3 months we get some ridiculously new ill-thought "rework" that just causes more problems, nerfs things that we had just gotten used to, some new changes on top level market and what not. Not exactly fun.

 

and as such would be a huge waste of time,

 

Time, it seems all of ours' time, has been wasted. The only question is if they will simply admit to this.

 

but also, as mentioned, EoC has been in development for close to eleven months as of now. They're not going to throw away eleven months worth of programming and 'testing' time.

 

From a quick look at their pitiful QA performance, and the capricious nature with which they keep reworking things ("It's about balancing the triangle ... err, no, take drygorescape! It's about balancing the tiers so higher tiers are better than lower tiers, so take this exponential curve ... err, no, time to nerf this! PoP is the new best armour in the game ... err, no, Nex needs set effects ... not enough, Nex needs to be made even more offensive!). They obviously have no overarching vision for this and have simply resorted to throwing new stuff at the wall and hoping some of it eventually sticks. That's not the sort of result one would expect from something that has supposedly been in development for 11 months! This is something you'd expect in the early developmental stages where they were just testing all sorts of directions because they weren't certain yet. This is not the result one expects after 11 months. It makes me wonder ... just what the hell did they do in these 11 months?

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To be honest, the only reason why melee is unbalanced in EoC is purely because Drygores exist and not for other styles, before drygore was released, The 3 combat triangles were at least more on par with each other than the old system.

 

The Old system was a system where Melee was dominant before chaotic was introduced, and the introduction of chaotic weapons did absolutely nothing to help that cause, it merely increased the difference between Melee and everything else.


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6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)

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So my Pernix all up has like what? 74 damage or something like that, how much extra damage is that really giving me?


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So my Pernix all up has like what? 74 damage or something like that, how much extra damage is that really giving me?

 

around 5.6%, assuming that the 74 damage boost is added after normalising damage to a 'Fastest' T80 weapon.

 

IIRC 74 damage is the exactly the same amount of damage with set effect before this update, so if anything, they actually made Nex sets better since you had to wear the entire set to get the 74 damage, and breaking any set automatically loses you at least 23 damage due to the effect, in addition to any damage you would lose replacing that part.


tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)

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So my Pernix all up has like what? 74 damage or something like that, how much extra damage is that really giving me?

 

around 5.6%, assuming that the 74 damage boost is added after normalising damage to a 'Fastest' T80 weapon.

 

Hmm. I see, I see.


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Nearly half the RS population is playing the 07 servers rather than the EoC, and I can guarantee you that at the bare minimum enough of the people playing the live game miss when combat wasn't a buggy, ever changing mess and would vote for the return of a combat system where difficulty in bossing came from knowledge of the mechanics and twitch gameplay, rather than arbitrary changes to player accuracy and boss HP.

 

A vote to keep the live game minus the EoC would be a runaway success.

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Asmodean <3

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Nearly half the RS population is playing the 07 servers rather than the EoC, and I can guarantee you that at the bare minimum enough of the people playing the live game miss when combat wasn't a buggy, ever changing mess and would vote for the return of a combat system where difficulty in bossing came from knowledge of the mechanics and twitch gameplay, rather than arbitrary changes to player accuracy and boss HP.

 

A vote to keep the live game minus the EoC would be a runaway success.

 

Indeed. It's forgotten that those people who are playing the main game rather than 2007 aren't necessarily doing so because they approve of EoC, there's a host of other reasons for them staying, such as not wanting to start over again, not wanting to miss out on all the other updates (aside from EoC) that have taken place in the last 5 years and so on.

 

Anyone who proclaims at this point that EoC is going smoothly or is still overwhelming popular is waddling in delusion.

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And bring back meleescape all over again, which is now exacerbated by the presence of Drygores?


tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)

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And bring back meleescape all over again, which is now exacerbated by the presence of Drygores?

 

Well, ideally, I'd retain certain features of EoC: such as the usefulness of elemental spells, the removal of expensive runes from spells (deaths/bloods) thus making spells accessible, the damage system (T90 or any tier weapons, regardless of combat style, all have, theoretically, the same damage), the ability of mage to actually be effective at bosses and so forth. In any case, the meleescape argument doesn't work, because they have let Drygores run wild for 4 months now. I am not even opposed to the specials, but they clearly can't make up their mind on EoC. It is absolutely tiresome to have to relearn every 3 months when they rework stuff. I wouldn't mind it if they maintained a consistent and dedicated effort, but usually they do a half-hearted rework, disappear for a few months while players complain, then half-heartedly incorporate feedback and so on. If they are really serious, there should be a team of J-Mods available on the forums that should be surveying the land so that a fix can be implemented within the next few weeks, not months.

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tfw Jagex need to bring back old combat.

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1593th to 99 Farming - July 08.

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The only reason why I mention Meleescape is because the problem of Meleescaped existed for the longest time (Chaotics did nothing to help that problem), while Drygore EoC scape only existed as long as Drygores did (which, up to that point, all 3 styles were pretty much on par with each other).

 

By reverting to the old combat system, you are basically ripping open the old wounds while doing nothing about the new ones. Yes, there will be runaway success if Old combat system were reimplemented, but it's only a matter of time before people realises that the existence of Drygores will only mean that the game is no longer about how good you are, but also how rich you are. In the end, people will just quit the game entirely and not even bother trying to remain in the game.

 

The damage is already done, you'd be just making matters worse by reimplementing it.

 

I am not saying EoC is without its flaws (in fact, there are plenty of them which I'd very much do without), but given the current state of things, the benefits of going back to the old system is only temporary, will probably be disastrous for RS in the long run.

 

EDIT: I think at this day and age any discussion relating to EoC is now always degenerating into a call to Restore old school combat with either camp pretty much refusing to give an inch, so, my involvement with this debate will now end here. It is clear that people prefer the past.

  • Like 1

tim_chenw2.png
6,924th to 30 hunting, 13,394th to 30 summoning, 52,993rd to 30 Divination

Kiln Record (Post-EoC): W 25 - L 0, 14 Uncut Onyx, 8 Jad hits received (Best record: Two in the same kiln)
Obby set renewed post update #2: 0

QBD drops: 21 crossbow parts, 3 Visages, 1 Kites, 2 Kits

Max Port Score [2205] Achieved: 27th April 2013 (World 2nd)

 

Farmyard Rampage ranking: 12th, 50,000 Kills.

 

Dragon Pickaxe Drops: 1 (Times after I first entered Battlefield: 2h)

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The impression I get when people say 'get rid of EOC' is that theyre primarily referring to the ability system, but that the attempted rebalance between combat styles through things like weaknesses and making mage/range actually useable in PvM is what people want to stay from the EOC. But to me currently it isnt the ability mechanism of combat thats broken at the moment, its the attempt at rebalancing which are still all over the place. Thats why the whole 'get rid of it arguement' makes no sense to me.

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I think it would be great if all 3 combat styles were equal, and except in a few special cases such as glacors or ice strykes, creatures are equally weak to all 3 styles, letting the player choose whichever style of combat appeals to them. Maybe then you'd see some variety.

 

Right now everyone uses the same gear and style at bosses. How is that any different from pre eoc? Everyone wore ranged gear and chaotic crossbow at Nex, everyone wore mage gear and a zspear at Corp, everyone wore straight melee gear at Bandos, everyone wore straight ranged at Armadyl, and straight mage at glacors.

 

Pre eoc combat was plenty varied in PVM. All they've done is change what gear everyone uses at each boss. If almost everything is weak to all 3 styles, maybe we'll start to see mixed Nex teams including mages, rangers and melee'rs. Which would be much more preferable to me than the current system.

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Asmodean <3

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I am not saying EoC is without its flaws (in fact, there are plenty of them which I'd very much do without), but given the current state of things, the benefits of going back to the old system is only temporary, will probably be disastrous for RS in the long run.

 

Just imagine where we could be(in terms of combat) if they didnt spend as long as they have developing EoC. Could of balanced combat much easier, still have abilities(not so important in combat but useful), a task bar for skilling and probaly a new skill ready by now.


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1593th to 99 Farming - July 08.

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I think it would be great if all 3 combat styles were equal, and except in a few special cases such as glacors or ice strykes, creatures are equally weak to all 3 styles, letting the player choose whichever style of combat appeals to them. Maybe then you'd see some variety.

 

Right now everyone uses the same gear and style at bosses. How is that any different from pre eoc? Everyone wore ranged gear and chaotic crossbow at Nex, everyone wore mage gear and a zspear at Corp, everyone wore straight melee gear at Bandos, everyone wore straight ranged at Armadyl, and straight mage at glacors.

 

Pre eoc combat was plenty varied in PVM. All they've done is change what gear everyone uses at each boss. If almost everything is weak to all 3 styles, maybe we'll start to see mixed Nex teams including mages, rangers and melee'rs. Which would be much more preferable to me than the current system.

Well, at least until people identify the setup that gives the best DPS :P

A possible way around might be to incorporate some form of complementarity between abilities - maybe some added effects or special boosts that occur if two abilities that synergise with each other are used. For instance, they could make combust deal extra damage if the target is already under the effects of Slaughter/Frag shot, or make combust last 200% longer if cast when the target is under the effect of Incendiary shot. It would encourage more multiclassing within a team when bossing, at least.


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In real life MMO you don't get 99 smithing by making endless bronze daggers.

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I really like the idea of most things being equally weak to everything apart from a few niche creatures - perhaps with weaknesses only adding a small amount to DPS in most creatures rather than a very, very large amount. Then bosses which I dunno become weak to Melee while being maged or something similar.


Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo
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Minigames: Level 5 in All Barbarian Assault Roles PM me in game or on these forums to play. Over 500 Castle Wars Games with 460+ Tickets.

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Making a referendum to remove the EoC... Well for one it wouldn't pass,

 

How do you know this?

Because they wouldn't make a referendum on this without making sure the result was the one they want.

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Making a referendum to remove the EoC... Well for one it wouldn't pass,

 

How do you know this?

Because they wouldn't make a referendum on this without making sure the result was the one they want.

 

Or they'd move the goal posts in order to get the results they wanted ... :unsure:

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Making a referendum to remove the EoC... Well for one it wouldn't pass,

 

How do you know this?

Because they wouldn't make a referendum on this without making sure the result was the one they want.

 

Jagex wants to make money. If removing EOC was more or less guaranteed to increase their revenues, they'd put up a referendum in a heartbeat.


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Making a referendum to remove the EoC... Well for one it wouldn't pass,

 

How do you know this?

Because they wouldn't make a referendum on this without making sure the result was the one they want.

 

Jagex wants to make money. If removing EOC was more or less guaranteed to increase their revenues, they'd put up a referendum in a heartbeat.

 

I think the question is going to be when does it hit the critical mass between cost of development vis a vis income? I mean, they've thrown a lot of time and money into EOC. Has it paid off? Will it pay off?


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The issue being that with all the developer time they have invested into the EoC already, giving up on it now would represent a pretty large waste of resources.

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Asmodean <3

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