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FooK-A-Ji

hey answer me this

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It's just habit now, it's harder for me to type without proper grammar/punctuation.

 

Though, ocassionally I do like to throw in the old ur jus jeluz cos i get al da guys


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I love N_odie and would never edit his posts! I love Rainy_Day too <3 And also Cowman_133. <33 Oh, and Laikrob is a going to hunt me down and kill me like a pest kangaroo if I reveal how awesome she is. I owe tripsis skittles. DarkDude feels like he's missing out. This is my siggy! - n_odie Rainy_Day MINE! - n_odie Rainy_Day And meol shouldn't feel left out. Oh, and Y_Guy is a noob awesome

 

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i'd like to add though, that one who dresses "smart" can still be a total illiterate fool and/or socially stunted in all aspects :)

which concludes, that proper spelling and/or punctuation and dressing have only one thing in common. they can both be used to camouflage ignorance. (knowing how to spell does not reflect ones intelligence)

I think you're missing the point. What you wear says something, regardless of what it is. When you wear sweatpants, you communicate--whether you mean it or not--that you don't care. When you wear a suit to work, you communicate the opposite. Refusing to acknowledge this is like refusing to acknowledge that the sound /ʃɪt/ and the doodle /shit/ are offensive to many people, yelling/writing them everywhere, and then saying they're just noises and shapes and don't have any inherent content and expecting everyone to take you seriously regardless. The same goes for spelling.


Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can

Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude?

Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you?

Camera guy: still laughing

Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy

Camera guy: runs away still laughing

Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down

Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]!

Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL!

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I find that typing 'wrong' actually takes more effort than typing properly.

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Well, the trick to that is to try not to have terrible points. Why would you want people to listen to you if you had nothing to say?

 

BECAUSE ITS THE INTERNET, BROSEPH! :D

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i'd like to add though, that one who dresses "smart" can still be a total illiterate fool and/or socially stunted in all aspects :)

which concludes, that proper spelling and/or punctuation and dressing have only one thing in common. they can both be used to camouflage ignorance. (knowing how to spell does not reflect ones intelligence)

I think you're missing the point. What you wear says something, regardless of what it is. When you wear sweatpants, you communicate--whether you mean it or not--that you don't care. When you wear a suit to work, you communicate the opposite. Refusing to acknowledge this is like refusing to acknowledge that the sound /ʃɪt/ and the doodle /shit/ are offensive to many people, yelling/writing them everywhere, and then saying they're just noises and shapes and don't have any inherent content and expecting everyone to take you seriously regardless. The same goes for spelling.

 

granted. dress accordingly. one would look as much a fool, wearing a suit to a paint job.

however, when I'm on my off time I would like to wear sweatpants if i so choose, without haven pretentious better-than-thou's judging me :)

 

the same goes for serious/non serious "debates" on the internet and spelling/grammar check.

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Feel free to do so, but just be aware that you're telling everyone you meet that you didn't think they'd be worth dressing properly for. The issue is not that you should always dress/type properly, it's just that it's in your self-interest to do so, especially with people who don't know you.


Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can

Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude?

Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you?

Camera guy: still laughing

Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy

Camera guy: runs away still laughing

Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down

Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]!

Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL!

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I came onto the internet as someone who would abbreviate everything possible, but then I slowly shifted towards grammar and punctuation simply because it feels more natural and looks sexier.

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Wait, usage of the internet actually helped someones grammar and punctuation? Stop the world, I want to get off. :P

  • Like 2

 

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THE place for all free players to connect, hang out and talk about how awesome it is to be F2P.

So, Kaida is the real version of every fictional science-badass? That explains a lot, actually...

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Spelling rules serve to expand the convention of spelling, which aids communication between people who don't know eachothers spelling. In that sense, if you are perfectly understood, you spell 'correctly'. Formally correct spelling helps a lot here though, plus social/context benefits. I like correct spelling :P.

 

There's at least two major spelling guides for Dutch (being the Green and the White spelling) which goes to show how 'correct' spelling is subjective as well :P.


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Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

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What I find interesting is how 'text speak' has evolved over the last ten years. I think six or seven years ago, it was very trendy to minimise the number of characters used as much as humanly possible while still remaining coherent. Now that most mobile phone pay-monthly contracts are cheaper than pay-as-you-go, since as most monthly contracts essentially provide unlimited text messages as part of them, and now that most mobile phones tend to have a QWERTY keyboard of some description, I've noticed people tend to write out their messages with proper spelling, grammar and punctuation now, since we're much less bothered about using two SMSs instead of one to convey the same message.

 

Even in text messaging, it's probably now expected to use a good standard of English grammar. IMing, maybe less so.

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Related and quite distinct from the point I was making:

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

  • Like 1

Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can

Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude?

Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you?

Camera guy: still laughing

Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy

Camera guy: runs away still laughing

Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down

Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]!

Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL!

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" Here is a well-known verse from Ecclesiastes:

 

I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

 

Here it is in modern English:

 

Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account."

 

From that article. I find the modern English clearer (and funnier) than the old, although both are rather convoluted. Good English would be: "You will see that success or failure does not depend on skill only - there is always a randomness."

 

Orwell goes on to say that the first sentence is "precise and detailed" when it really is being long-winded and using pars pro toto (the race/battle/bread/riches/favour for all good things, the swift/strong/wise/men of understanding/men of skill for all people) where it serves no use - it should just be generalized as far as possible if the author wanted to make a clear point (I believe this is a Bible verse, so clarity probably wasn't the first priority).

 

Orwell lists these rules:

"(i) Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.

 

(ii) Never use a long word where a short one will do.

 

(iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

 

(iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active.

 

(v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.

 

(vi) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous."

 

1) Why not? References to other works can summon a feeling much, much better than a new figure of speech can. Some figures of speech we use are thought to be thousands of years old - are you going to top that with your new combination? Even if you are Orwell...

2) Why not? There is such a thing as rythm in speech and writing, and I will gladly use a longer word to make my sentence sound better.

3) See above.

4) See above. Also, just... stupid. If you want to use passive, use passive >.>. Not to mention ergative languages, but ok.

5) See 1. Also, so many fun metaphors you can make with obscure words... also see 2.

6) Well yeah... so basically ignore those rules when it suits your writing?

 

Plus that the rules are too many, and can be condensed quite simply into: "Write short, write unique, write common/simple, write well" (all of these rules can be at odds with eachother as well). Properly writing short would probably involve lots of / and other non-letter symbols which would make it harder to actually pronounce the text.

 

Not that I don't agree with Orwell when he says his examples aren't very good at some things, but that doesn't mean they are not useful at all. Orwell is just another one of those people who do not properly appreciate convoluted language.

  • Like 1

Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

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99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

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99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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I mostly type to a reasonable standard of grammar and punctuation, although I have np with people using abbreviations. Forums lend themselves to that kind of thing though, if it's some form of instant chat like in game/irc then I don't really bother with correct punctuation etc.


Asmodean <3

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" Here is a well-known verse from Ecclesiastes:

 

I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

 

Here it is in modern English:

 

Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account."

 

From that article. I find the modern English clearer (and funnier) than the old, although both are rather convoluted. Good English would be: "You will see that success or failure does not depend on skill only - there is always a randomness."

 

Orwell goes on to say that the first sentence is "precise and detailed" when it really is being long-winded and using pars pro toto (the race/battle/bread/riches/favour for all good things, the swift/strong/wise/men of understanding/men of skill for all people) where it serves no use - it should just be generalized as far as possible if the author wanted to make a clear point (I believe this is a Bible verse, so clarity probably wasn't the first priority).

Illustrations are missing from your correction. Of course, if you assume the author cannot have been concerned with style, then almost any figure of speech seems useless.

1) Why not? References to other works can summon a feeling much, much better than a new figure of speech can. Some figures of speech we use are thought to be thousands of years old - are you going to top that with your new combination? Even if you are Orwell...

Orwell covers that when he mentions "iron resolution" is one of those metaphors that is so old and has been used for so long that it has essentially lost all metaphorical content. I understand that rule to be applicable to metaphors which are neither of that category, nor original. Orwell's worry is that you're going to fit your thoughts to the metaphor when you should be doing the opposite.

2) Why not? There is such a thing as rythm in speech and writing, and I will gladly use a longer word to make my sentence sound better.

"I am not, indeed, sure whether it is not true to say that" being used instead of "I think" (or "I don't think", since that example was especially unclear) is what Orwell is referring to. OK, those are not words, but you get the gist of it. It's kind of difficult to take that claim on without examples (to be fair, that's a lot of work for the Internet).

3) See above.

4) See above. Also, just... stupid. If you want to use passive, use passive >.>. Not to mention ergative languages, but ok.

In case that was not clear, this article is about the English language... "It is often thought by Progressives" can easily be replaced with the shorter, less convoluted "Progressives think". Why would you want to write former instead of the latter? It just distracts from what you actually have to say using needless contortions.

5) See 1. Also, so many fun metaphors you can make with obscure words... also see 2.

What's the point of using Wertfreiheit instead of ethical neutrality? Congrats, you know a German word! It's understandable if you use a word which is associated with something more particular than its original meaning (chansonl being used as a genre in English when it just means "song " in French, for instance), you're just being pretentious.

6) Well yeah... so basically ignore those rules when it suits your writing?

I'm sorry to report that people may have to actually think about what they're doing instead of using seven rules and declaring themselves masters of style.

 

Plus that the rules are too many, and can be condensed quite simply into: "Write short, write unique, write common/simple, write well" (all of these rules can be at odds with eachother as well). Properly writing short would probably involve lots of / and other non-letter symbols which would make it harder to actually pronounce the text.

 

Not that I don't agree with Orwell when he says his examples aren't very good at some things, but that doesn't mean they are not useful at all. Orwell is just another one of those people who do not properly appreciate convoluted language.

Succinctly, concisely? Or maybe "Your writing should be as short, as simple and as original as possible". Besides, as I said earlier, I don't think his point is that your language has to be original. By definition, language isn't--someone else has to be using it as well, so a truly original language wouldn't be a language at all. I think writers who employ useless acrobatics in their speech are trying to be original; they're just going about it the wrong way.


Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can

Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude?

Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you?

Camera guy: still laughing

Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy

Camera guy: runs away still laughing

Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down

Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]!

Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL!

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Expanding on the above, I always read it as a warning against needlessly convoluted writing; the kind that tries to be intellectual and just ends up incomprehensible.

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1) My correction is on Orwell's modern, which does not have any examples.

2) Orwell here is taking a lot of figures of speech literally (the toe/tow the line for example, and hammer and anvil being about the anvil getting the worst of it). He's essentially complaining that metaphors aren't 'realistic' anymore. The point of figures of speech is that you can use them in their current meaning without every knowing where it came from.

3) I like that sentence.

4) You mean 'progressives often think' which really doesn't sound any nicer than 'is often thought by progressives'.

5) Because someone you have referenced before used that word in their work? Because it carries the implication of a particular school of philosophy that the reader would be familiar with?

6) Well they have to think anyway, Orwell's just not making it easier.

7) Language can actually be original. You can come up with things that nobody has used before, and have people understand them. But that's not required for good writing. You can write great books using only stock phrases. You'll probably need a good story to tell though.

 

Essentially my problem with Orwell is that he is a language 'purist' who's not interested in letting language take its natural course and evolve ("Except for the useful abbreviations i.e., e.g., and etc., there is no real need for any of the hundreds of foreign phrases now current in the English language."). He also doesn't seem to understand scientific jargon >.>. For example: "*An interesting illustration of this is the way in which English flower names were in use till very recently are being ousted by Greek ones, Snapdragon becoming antirrhinum, forget-me-not becoming myosotis, etc. It is hard to see any practical reason for this change of fashion: it is probably due to an instinctive turning away from the more homely word and a vague feeling that the Greek word is scientific."

Where he completely ignores the possibility that perhaps some French authors might also be using the Greek (or Latin, as another case may be). And en passant he stabs at people who like to use Greek words. Some languages just have better words for what you want to say, too. The Greek might have a much more descriptive name than the English (in this case, antirhinum happens to mean nose-like) which can make someone use it.


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Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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If i'm on my cell, I really don't care but I always try to have all my words spelled rite. If I'm on my computer like I am now I try to make conscious effort to have good spelling, punctuation, and grammar.


35bvvh1.png

[hide=Quotes]

Albel/Justin

Albel doesn't say anything anymore, just comes in, leaves an arrow and vanishes into the night :(Probably
practising some euphonium

You nearly had me fooled, you fooler you

Euphonium/10.

9/10. To me, always associate Albel with musical stuff in OT.

Everyone with a goatee and glasses is Albel now.

lmfao albel m8 wat r u doin, hi though.

 

[/hide]

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I only take issues with evolving less precise language. Pristine has been misused so much that it now has clean listed in the dictionary, which is a shame because english doesn't have any other words that mean what pristine does, which is original condition. And no, mint condition isn't the same either, since pristine allows for restoration, which is probably why people took it to mean clean.

 

Pursue is another one. If by chance someone manages to use that word, it is sometimes helpful to know if they think it's a synonym for browse, or they know it means the opposite. I browse for cards, my Mom purses them.

 

On the other hand, foreign languages have plenty of words that English could use, as we have no words ourselves. Languages focus on things that are important to them, so you end up with languages that have words for very specific concepts that other languages require entire phrases for. An absolutely beautiful one is Neidbau (German), a more general form of the english 'spite fence'. It's a building that is often of little value to the owner built for the purpose of inconveniencing or angering the neighbors.

 

Perhaps more relevant to this thread is Pilkunnussija (Finnish), meaning A person who believes it is their destiny to stamp out all spelling and punctuation mistakes at the cost of popularity, self-esteem and mental well-being.

 

Of course, people who speak the languages correct me if I am using either of those words wrong.

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The problem with foreign words is that most readers wont recognize them. They may be perfect, but that's irrelevant unless the reader understands why they're perfect.

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The problem with foreign words is that most readers wont recognize them. They may be perfect, but that's irrelevant unless the reader understands why they're perfect.

Google is your friend :D.

 

I believe this is relevant: http://xkcd.com/1053/

Applies to new words as well ;).


Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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It's not acceptable just because you can google it. If you make your reader have to google something, you're interrupting their focus on your piece, thus detracting from what you have to say. Never detract from your own writing.

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To a degree it is acceptable because you can Google it. As writer you always have to take into account your audience, which will also determine which words you can use, but you can still 'demand' something from your audience. You can perfectly well write a text with as additional aim to introduce words to your audience. Sure, they may have to look it up, but that's the point. Provided you take it into account, you can 'detract' from your own writing. Especially for online writing, it's quite realistic to assume your readers can quickly look up the word.

 

In a lot of cases, it's necessary to define some terms that are common in your writing, but uncommon elsewhere. If the perfect word exists in another language, you can use that, which will give instant recognizability - at least for the people who've heard of that language or a similar one - and there will certainly be online definitions already in-place. It's a long-term investment in the efficiency of communication - proposing to designate a word for use in such-and-such ways, shortening a previous expression by a couple of words. It's one of the main reasons language evolves.


Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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