Intoxication and Consent - morality, legality, and other shenanigans

[sees_all1]

Typically I see "blaming the victim" as what people say to try to excuse the perpetrator's actions. I don't think anyone is trying to excuse the rapist.

[Omar]

OK, good, we're arguing about entirely different things then, but I can't quite pinpoint what you're talking about. What problem are we considering, that the instrumentality of one's own actions in the violation of one's rights is relevant?

Typically I see "blaming the victim" as what people say to try to excuse the perpetrator's actions. I don't think anyone is trying to excuse the rapist.

Yep, that's a good way to put it. Blame is a pretty strong word and it implies some sort of retribution is legitimate, and that's not what obfuscator was arguing I think.

[muggiwhplar]

When it comes to accountability/responsibility/blame/fault/etc... you need to look at what events led to something happening. But when you do that, you'll find that it's not as black and white as just one person causing something to happen. It usually involves MANY people. Think of the butterfly effect from sci fi stuff. Since the chain of events is long and blurry, you need to examine the closest events to the final occurrence, as well as people's INTENT, in addition to their BEHAVIOR.

 

For example, you could argue that if a rapists' parents had never met, he'd never have been born, and there would have never been a rape. But that'd be silly because not only were those parents so distantly related to the event, they also didn't intend on having a child and raising him to be a rapist (I hope). Therefore it'd be a waste of energy to try to bring them into this. Not much good would come from saying, "remember parents-- if you choose to have a child, there's a chance he'll become a rapist and therefore you should definitely reconsider!"

 

Things get blurrier when you get closer to the event itself. If you look at a girl who, instead of having just one or two drinks, decides to have five or six. Things get blurrier if she was peer pressured into having more drinks or if someone messed with her drinks, rather than her intentionally choosing to continue drinking. Things get blurrier if her friends ditch her instead of her abandoning her friends to go talk to the rapist.

 

But ultimately, the final link in the chain of events is the rapist himself. Theoretically, he intended to rape her and was the primary determinant in the outcome. So if you're going to "blame" anyone, it would go to him. But just because he's to blame doesn't mean that the girl should be treated as someone who was 100% innocent. When I say innocent, again, I'm talking about her decisions which led to that outcome; not whether or not she "deserved" it.

 

The reason it's important to consider the girl as at the very least somewhat responsible for this happening is so she, as well as her friends and society as a whole, can learn, grow, and adapt to mitigate this issue in the future. If people never accept the fact that drinking irresponsibly and making unsafe decisions (especially while intoxicated) can lead to very bad outcomes, then how can we expect those outcomes to become less frequent?

 

Instead, we listen to that voice inside our minds which counsels fear and irrationality and we refuse to acknowledge the victim's role in this unfortunate chain of events. When you hear about rape in the media, the focus is almost always on the rapist and not the victim, with regards to their "participation" leading up to the event. We hear people saying, "Remember men! Control yourselves! I know you all want to go rape all day, but that's a no-no!" We rarely hear people saying, "Remember to drink responsibly and make smart choices so you don't end up like this person!"

 

Hope that makes sense. >_>

[obfuscator]

That's exactly what I'm trying to get at, stated much more eloquently. Thanks!

[Alg]

Context makes a difference. You do hear "drink responsibly or someone might rape you" as a warning, but it's more than a little tactless to say that to the victim after the fact. I know the internet doesn't think too highly of tact, but still.

 

More to the point, it's hard to make that argument without blaming the victim to a certain degree. The implication is "this wouldn't have happened to you if you didn't do this", which sort of sidesteps the rapist's role in things: it might not have happened to that victim but that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be one.

 

Ultimately, the victim didn't intend to be a victim, the rapist did intend to be a rapist.

 

I'm not actually expecting to make sense here; slightly sleep deprived, among other things.

[muggiwhplar]

Context makes a difference. You do hear "drink responsibly or someone might rape you" as a warning, but it's more than a little tactless to say that to the victim after the fact. I know the internet doesn't think too highly of tact, but still.

 

More to the point, it's hard to make that argument without blaming the victim to a certain degree. The implication is "this wouldn't have happened to you if you didn't do this", which sort of sidesteps the rapist's role in things: it might not have happened to that victim but that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be one.

 

Ultimately, the victim didn't intend to be a victim, the rapist did intend to be a rapist.

 

I'm not actually expecting to make sense here; slightly sleep deprived, among other things.

 

Right. A reason why we don't discuss this is because it may come across as a slap in the face to the victim. But I'd rather help prevent such horrible things from happening in the future than avoid hurting someone's feelings. The ends justify the means. Personally, I think it's best to always accept responsibility for everything that happens to you-- good or bad. Sometimes it makes bad things worse, but ultimately it allows you to learn and reflect on experiences and hopefully achieve more desired outcomes in the future. It's not a very "considerate" way to manage your problems, but hey, reality isn't very considerate either; especially if you don't bother to change the way you deal with the things it throws at you :P

[Vezon Dash]

But what if the "rapist" wasn't a rapist, and he was just a really drunk guy? She says yes and he says yes, then she claims that it is rape. Who is the victim?

[sees_all1]

But what if the "rapist" wasn't a rapist, and he was just a really drunk guy? She says yes and he says yes, then she claims that it is rape. Who is the victim?

She feels violated, he goes to jail. Both are victims and neither are blameless. Sort of the tragedy of casual hookups.

[Giordano]

But what if the "rapist" wasn't a rapist, and he was just a really drunk guy? She says yes and he says yes, then she claims that it is rape. Who is the victim?

She feels violated, he goes to jail. Both are victims and neither are blameless. Sort of the tragedy of casual hookups.

SHE feels violated? Dude, I feel like I slept with a cow. Where's my rights!! :evil:

[Range_This11]

Shouldn't have gone hoggin' bro

[stevepole]

But what if the "rapist" wasn't a rapist, and he was just a really drunk guy? She says yes and he says yes, then she claims that it is rape. Who is the victim?

 

There isn't enough information to truly answer that question.

[Omar]

Suppose both are wasted, has a rape occurred? Neither gave consent, but committing another crime in that state would result in punishment, so are we to believe that both are rapists and rape victims?

 

[Edit]

@muggi: K, so we're talking about different things. Here's a way to put things I think none of us can disagree with:

- so long as no rights are violated, it is neither immoral nor illegal to do something like go out in the street with wads of bills in your hands or get wasted beyond ability to consent, therefore, you are neither accountable, nor responsible, nor answerable.

- that being said, while you are not in the wrong for doing either of those things, these actions are instrumental in the creation of circumstances that made the perpetration of a crime possible or more likely. This is different from being at fault, but it does mean that the whole ordeal could have been avoided.

- therefore it's perfectly reasonable to teach people to drink carefully or to conceal their money, not because it's their fault if something bad happens to them but because it's in their self-interest to do so, because what is immoral and illegal doesn't magically stop happening. After the case, however, since the victim was in the right, they are 100% innocent.

 

Fair?

[sees_all1]

But what if the "rapist" wasn't a rapist, and he was just a really drunk guy? She says yes and he says yes, then she claims that it is rape. Who is the victim?

She feels violated, he goes to jail. Both are victims and neither are blameless. Sort of the tragedy of casual hookups.

SHE feels violated? Dude, I feel like I slept with a cow. Where's my rights!! :evil:

In Soviet Russia,

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2013870/Robber-broke-hair-salon-beaten-black-belt-owner-kept-sex-slave-days--fed-Viagra.html

[stevepole]

Suppose both are wasted, has a rape occurred? Neither gave consent, but committing another crime in that state would result in punishment, so are we to believe that both are rapists and rape victims?

 

Well the information given states that only he was drunk. Both gave consent, but the most important information is missing, and that is details about what happened when they physically had sex. Was it passionate? Or was he over overbearing?

 

If anyone here watches HBO's Girls, there is a particular scene between Adam and his at-the-time girlfriend Natalia that relates to this issue. I would link to the scene, but it's too graphic to share here.

[jasignhagj]

Rape is such an emotionally driven crime; the other day I got into a argument with my friend who said rape is worse than murder. Then with rape accusations, it's a case of guilty until proven innocent.

 

I think it's society's outdated religious virtues playing a role in this: virginity and sexual actives are so sacred and private anybody who breaks them is the anti-Christ reincarnate.

 

Don't get me started on the rape is worse than murder bullshit. If you believe that, you are essentially implying that all rape victims would be better off dead.

[Racheya]

I really like an image which has gone around the internet which says Men should be offended when people say Women shouldn't drink, walk at night or wear certain clothes or they'll get raped. Because it implies a mans default status is 'rapist' and that if we don't take precautions then they will rape. Does it not make sense to say 'Men shouldn't rape' than 'women shouldn't let themselves get raped'.

 

I'm saying this on a purely theoretical level, unfortunately in day to day life I have to say that women should avoid bring drunk in those sorts of situations, even though it is putting the onus on the victim to change their behaviour.

[obfuscator]

It makes sense to say both imo. I'm not offended by those sayings because the reality is that many people just don't have self control.

[nine naked men]

yo ginger was just trying to throw you a lifeline because it's really embarrassing watching somebody being unable to engage in serious discussion unless they can compare it to a videogame

[Randox]

Don't get me started on the rape is worse than murder bullshit. If you believe that, you are essentially implying that all rape victims would be better off dead.

Given that it has driven more than a few to commit suicide, I'd say that some number of rape victims seem to agree that they are better off dead. Murder is also unique in that the victim is not aware of anything after the fact. The victim of any other crime presumably has to live with the emotional and physical consequences of being a victim in said crime. I believe that which crimes are the worst is a highly personal choice, depending on what you are afraid of, both in terms of being afraid of a specific scenario, and the perceived likelihood.

 

In terms of Victim impact, I would easily rank rape right at the top of the list (not necessarily the very top item, but right up there), and obviously murder would be on the bottom (since the victim is not around to be impacted, though consideration should be given to the impact of those that survive the victim). If I were to judge the crime as a more complete 'thing' though, I would rank murder at the top because it robs someone of the entire remaining potential of their life. Descending order would then be the crimes that have the most emotional and/or physical impact that changes the remainder of their lives. I would also in this sense consider a crime that leads to the victim committing suicide as a direct result of the impact of the crime essentially tantamount to murder, even though this was likely not the intent (thus, manslaughter).

 

 

Also, because I saw the age of consent mentioned, this is why many countries have Romeo and Juliet laws. Canada currently allows children as young as 12 (versus the current age of consent of 16) to give consent, provided that the older party is no more than two years older.

[muggiwhplar]

yo ginger was just trying to throw you a lifeline because it's really embarrassing watching somebody being unable to engage in serious discussion unless they can compare it to a videogame

 

I thought you were more rational than that lang :|

[nine naked men]

think of my opinions as namco's popular title katamari damacy

[muggiwhplar]

full of shit? :lol:

 

[Ginger_Warrior]

yo ginger was just trying to throw you a lifeline because it's really embarrassing watching somebody being unable to engage in serious discussion unless they can compare it to a videogame

 

I thought you were more rational than that lang :-|

Honestly, though... what next? Quoting Tales of Symphonia on an essay about racism? Call of Duty/Medal of Honour on a school report about the Pacific War? The Settlers on a study of the feudal system?

[muggiwhplar]

I'm still waiting for someone to respond to his point.

[Giordano]

What emotional and psychological damage does rape do? I get the fear of not knowing what is going to happen to you (maimed, dismembered, or death) so would a kidnapping be the same as a rape?

 

What in the act of a rape, besides the fear of the unknown, makes women feel "weak" and "worthless". Besides social values and stigmas, I got nothing.