Omar Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I figure this is as good a place as any. How does everyone feel about intoxication and consent? Mod Edit: This was split off from the relationship thread. Since this is such a controversial issue, please use care while posting. Thanks ~ Kimberly Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude? Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you? Camera guy: still laughing Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy Camera guy: runs away still laughing Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]! Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resistance Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I figure this is as good a place as any. How does everyone feel about intoxication and consent?If somebody gives consent while intoxicated that is their fault. People are responsible for themselves while intoxicated. Sticking your willy in somebody who is unconscious is separate, because they cannot give consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaida23 Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Intoxication and consent can be tricky. I think it depends on a couple of factors:Would they (or have they) slept with you sober? If so, then you're probably okay regardless of the level of intoxication.How intoxicated are they? A few drinks is one thing. Stumbling, barely conscious, blacking-out-and-won't-remember-anything-the-next-day drunk is another.Had they always been saying "no" before and then changed their mind after drinking too much? This happened to a friend of mine once and even though the guy claimed she said "yes" (after weeks of saying "no"), she's always felt like she was raped. 1 Check out my blog to read the Adventures of a Big Damn (F2P) Hero. THE place for all free players to connect, hang out and talk about how awesome it is to be F2P. So, Kaida is the real version of every fictional science-badass? That explains a lot, actually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 If they're intoxicated to the point where they can no longer reasonably judge the consequences of the choices they make for themselves, then I fail to see how anyone could argue they've given consent, since by nature, consent has to be an informed decision. If I got stupidly drunk, completely lost all sense, and then used all of my life savings (and then some) to buy, let's say, a house, I would hope any reasonable lawyer would argue that there's absolutely no way a valid contract could have been formed under those circumstances. The fact I've put myself into a position where I cannot give consent is irrelevant; the other party still has a moral and legal responsibility to ensure that I'm actually able to understand the risks of the situation they're assisting me into. The same goes for sex. If you think otherwise, then please explain to me in whatever rebuttal you offer to this post how you're not inherently arguing that "she deserved it because she got drunk". 1 | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vezon Dash Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 If you are stupid enough to get so drunk that you can be taken advantage of, then it is your fault entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Sounds strangely like blaming the victim, that. It was probably her fault for wearing a short skirt too, I guess. 5 | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggiwhplar Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 One of the reasons I chose to "invest" in Online Dating was because it avoids this issue altogether. I'm not interested in hooking up with drunk chicks for that reason. With that said, if you give "consent" while drunk, you're responsible for the consequences. If you're the kind of person who likes to make stupid decisions when you get drunk, then:a) Don't allow yourself to get into such situations while drunkb) Don't drink in the first place Side note: I hate the phrase "blaming the victim"; it's like bullying people into not holding others responsible >_> 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giordano Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Self-responsibility, we need more it in society. Getting drunk does not excuse you from anything. It's not blaming the victim (so don't draw such lengths with rape) it's facing self-responsibility. You should drink with trusted friends first to get a hold of your tolerance, then apply self-restraint on other parties. I'm not feeling pity for people who drink. Where does the line end? The person taking advantage could be drunk too, is (s)he excused? If I murder somebody while drunk do I get an excuse? Side note: I hate the phrase "blaming the victim"; it's like bullying people into not holding others responsible >_>I completely agree. It's adding an emotional phrase to a logical problem: Drinking issues? Control yourself. 1 "The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggiwhplar Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 More on that note... Ginger, saying that X happened as a result of Y behavior isn't the same thing as saying, "SHE DESERVED IT!" Do I think women "deserve" to get raped? Ever? No! But that doesn't change the fact that it happened, and that they aren't completely free of responsibility just because they were held responsible in the worst way imaginable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vezon Dash Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I never said they deserved it. A person through the middle of a highway doesn't deserve to get hit by a car, but I sure don't feel sorry for him if he does. He made a poor choice, and he will have to deal with the consequences instead of whine about the cars not stopping for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Self-responsibility, we need more it in society. Getting drunk does not excuse you from anything. It's not blaming the victim (so don't draw such lengths with rape) it's facing self-responsibility. You should drink with trusted friends first to get a hold of your tolerance, then apply self-restraint on other parties.What of the self-responsibility of a man to tell the difference between "Yes, I want to have sex with you," and "Yes, I'm so shit-faced right now you could tell me to do handstand on the side of the Humber Bridge and I'd do it for the lolz"? What is that men find so hard ruddy hard to understand that when a girl goes on a night out and gets drunk, that doesn't mean they want you to grope them all over, take them back to your place and take advantage of that vulnerability. Yes, women should exercise caution when getting drunk, although, the irony is this: they only need to take caution because of men thinking that's completely acceptable to get a girl apopletically drunk in order to 'soften them up' into having sex with them. Which seems to be exactly what you're finding permissible here. Thankfully, the law (at least where I live) agrees with me that it is rape on the grounds of the victim not being in a position to give consent to the act. So yes, I'll continue to draw analogies to rape. Because, you know, that's what it is. | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaida23 Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Canada has similar laws. (what Google must think of my searches over the last few minutes. :lol:) Check out my blog to read the Adventures of a Big Damn (F2P) Hero. THE place for all free players to connect, hang out and talk about how awesome it is to be F2P. So, Kaida is the real version of every fictional science-badass? That explains a lot, actually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resistance Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Just leads to girls regretting having sex and claiming it was rape. Happens all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggiwhplar Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Self-responsibility, we need more it in society. Getting drunk does not excuse you from anything. It's not blaming the victim (so don't draw such lengths with rape) it's facing self-responsibility. You should drink with trusted friends first to get a hold of your tolerance, then apply self-restraint on other parties.What of the self-responsibility of a man to tell the difference between "Yes, I want to have sex with you," and "Yes, I'm so shit-faced right now you could tell me to do handstand on the side of the Humber Bridge and I'd do it for the lolz"? What is that men find so hard ruddy hard to understand that when a girl goes on a night out and gets drunk, that doesn't mean they want you to grope them all over, take them back to your place and take advantage of that vulnerability. Yes, women should exercise caution when getting drunk, although, the irony is this: they only need to take caution because of men thinking that's completely acceptable to get a girl apopletically drunk in order to 'soften them up' into having sex with them. Which seems to be exactly what you're finding permissible here. Thankfully, the law (at least where I live) agrees with me that it is rape on the grounds of the victim not being in a position to give consent to the act. So yes, I'll continue to draw analogies to rape. Because, you know, that's what it is. Both the man and the woman are responsible. Saying that either party is 100% responsible while the other party is completely innocent is insane. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 What has exposure or crimes of misdemeanor got to do with consent? You don't consent to commit crimes. If that's meant to be a comparison to the concept of consent in rape cases, then we're not even talking about the same court of law... ridiculous. | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Dash Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 It is all just showing that even with impaired judgment, you are still responsible for your actions. “I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”“Do you have any regrets?”“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”“Mmmhmm.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Except, I've already referenced a precedent where the victim was judged not have been responsible. What has exposure or crimes of misdemeanor got to do with consent? You don't consent to commit crimes. If that's meant to be a comparison to the concept of consent in rape cases, then we're not even talking about the same court of law... ridiculous. consent to the laws themselves.No. You don't consent to the law, you have an obligation to follow the law. Consent is a concept applied when an individual faces a choice to make an agreement with another party, or decline the opportunity to do so, stating that both individuals must be sufficiently well informed and legally capable of making that decision in the first place. Since you have no choice about following the law, consent is a redundant concept. | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Dash Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 That isn't the way it works here though. “I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”“Do you have any regrets?”“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”“Mmmhmm.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 You're willfully ignoring legal precedent, choosing instead to compare chalk and cheese, and use a combination of thesaurus.com and RuneScape to rationalise it. It's hilarious, actually. | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggiwhplar Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 So Ginger, you're only responsible if you do bad things while drunk but if bad things happen to you, you're not responsible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Dash Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 He is using an analogy that we are all familiar with. He isn't using RS to rationalize. I just don't see what you don't get about taking responsibility for getting piss drunk and having sex with a person you didn't really want to have sex with on your own accord. If you can't control yourself when you drink, don't drink around people who will take advantage of you, that is being responsible. “I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”“Do you have any regrets?”“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”“Mmmhmm.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giordano Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 It's wrong to take advantage of somebody when they're drunk. It's wrong to get so drunk that you loose your personal conduct. The latter just happens to be a lack of self-responsibility, and thus must be the greater of the two evils. I cannot agree ethically nor legally somebody is not responsible when they're drunk. Now, if you believe people have a right to get drunk safely, then we cannot ever agree. "The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 So Ginger, you're only responsible if you do bad things while drunk but if bad things happen to you, you're not responsible?Yes, because there a clear difference between being the perpetrator of a crime, and being the victim of one because someone knowingly abused your vulnerability at that moment in time to get you to consent to something you would not otherwise have done. Interestingly, you said that this was a case of "saying that X happened as a result of Y behavior." So you're essentially admitting that, had Y not happened, X would never have occurred? | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Dash Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I don't want to speak for Muggi, but that is exactly what he said. Don't get drunk in an environment where unwanted things will happen, and those unwanted things won't happen. You are making a choice when you start to ingest alcohol or drugs. “I had a feeling we weren’t coming back from this fight when it began.”“Do you have any regrets?”“I don’t. It seems surprising, I know, but I wouldn’t change a thing. This is how it was meant to be.”“Huh, you never really notice how lovely the day is until you realize you’ll never see it again.”“Mmmhmm.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggiwhplar Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 So Ginger, you're only responsible if you do bad things while drunk but if bad things happen to you, you're not responsible?Yes, because there a clear difference between being the perpetrator of a crime, and being the victim of one because someone knowingly abused your vulnerability at that moment in time to get you to consent to something you would not otherwise have done. Interestingly, you said that this was a case of "saying that X happened as a result of Y behavior." So you're essentially admitting that, had Y not happened, X would never have occurred? Correct, and Y can "equal" any of the following:- Girl chooses to drink excessively- Girl chooses to put herself in dangerous situations- Guy chooses to become a rapist As I've said before, it's insane to place 100% of the blame on one person and then consider the other completely innocent. Which is what you seem to be doing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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