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Intoxication and Consent - morality, legality, and other shenanigans


Omar

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There's a huge problem with this "can a drunk girl consent" issue. And I chose to put girl down, because let's admit it, that's what we're talking about. The problem is we aren't talking about degrees of drunkeness, which is unfortunately something the law doesn't consider either. (To be fair, there isn't a particularly good way.)

 

Now, in my opinion, there's a huge problem with the law saying a drunk person can't consent. It doesn't take into account HOW drunk. A chooses to drink two cans of beer? Drunk. A girl so drunk she can't walk or talk? Still drunk. So, we can easily establish that the premise of "drunk girl can't consent" is wrong.

 

The problem is, there's no right answer. It's something that needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. And to judge it correctly, you need to know what actually happened, as opposed to what people say happened. Which, in the case of someone getting drunk, and in the case of rape charges, it's unlikely that you'll be able to find out. She said rape, he claims she said yes. If we always side with the women, guys will get charged with rape for having consensual sex. If we assume the girl gave content, there will be scenarios in which she didn't but the guy did.

 

That being said, I'm personally of the opinion that if a person chooses to get drunk, and while drunk chooses to have sex with somebody, it's consent.

 

And ginger. One thing I've noticed about your posts. All your examples are of a girl being in a vulnerable position. Being too drunk to walk or talk. You don't bring up the flip side, which is a girl who had like two beers, has sex, regrets it and charges with rape. You didn't reply to the post that mentioned that earlier as best as I can tell.

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And ginger. One thing I've noticed about your posts. All your examples are of a girl being in a vulnerable position. Being too drunk to walk or talk. You don't bring up the flip side, which is a girl who had like two beers, has sex, regrets it and charges with rape. You didn't reply to the post that mentioned that earlier as best as I can tell.

 

because these cases are a pretty massive minority and giving shit like that the same weight as the stuff ginger_warrior is talking about is actively harmful to rape victims.

 

those wacky image macros and people who bring up stuff like this are pretty much the best thing to happen for rapists in a long while.

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And ginger. One thing I've noticed about your posts. All your examples are of a girl being in a vulnerable position. Being too drunk to walk or talk. You don't bring up the flip side, which is a girl who had like two beers, has sex, regrets it and charges with rape. You didn't reply to the post that mentioned that earlier as best as I can tell.

 

because these cases are a pretty massive minority and giving shit like that the same weight as the stuff ginger_warrior is talking about is actively harmful to rape victims.

 

those wacky image macros and people who bring up stuff like this are pretty much the best thing to happen for rapists in a long while.

 

That is... not at all my intent.

 

Also, I have no idea what you mean by wacky image macro.

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Buying spins make you a bad person...don't do it. It's like buying nukes for North Korea.

Well if it bothers you that the game is more fun now, then you can go cry in a corner. :shame:

your article was the equivalent of a circumcized porcupine

The only thing wrong with it is the lack of a percentage for when you need to stroke it.

 


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And ginger. One thing I've noticed about your posts. All your examples are of a girl being in a vulnerable position. Being too drunk to walk or talk. You don't bring up the flip side, which is a girl who had like two beers, has sex, regrets it and charges with rape. You didn't reply to the post that mentioned that earlier as best as I can tell.

 

because these cases are a pretty massive minority and giving shit like that the same weight as the stuff ginger_warrior is talking about is actively harmful to rape victims.

 

those wacky image macros and people who bring up stuff like this are pretty much the best thing to happen for rapists in a long while.

 

That is... not at all my intent.

 

Also, I have no idea what you mean by wacky image macro.

what is your intent then? it's not a flip side, it's not really comparable, and by mentioning it as one you're doing a disservice

 

i mean it's cool if it's not your intent, but it's the effect nonetheless

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And ginger. One thing I've noticed about your posts. All your examples are of a girl being in a vulnerable position. Being too drunk to walk or talk. You don't bring up the flip side, which is a girl who had like two beers, has sex, regrets it and charges with rape. You didn't reply to the post that mentioned that earlier as best as I can tell.

 

because these cases are a pretty massive minority and giving shit like that the same weight as the stuff ginger_warrior is talking about is actively harmful to rape victims.

 

those wacky image macros and people who bring up stuff like this are pretty much the best thing to happen for rapists in a long while.

 

That is... not at all my intent.

 

Also, I have no idea what you mean by wacky image macro.

what is your intent then? it's not a flip side, it's not really comparable, and by mentioning it as one you're doing a disservice

 

i mean it's cool if it's not your intent, but it's the effect nonetheless

 

Cause for whatever reason the issue of being falsely accused of rape personally worries me more then rape. I dunno. More likely to affect me? Bugged me ever since that day in sex ed when I found out about it? Bugs me because it leads to a completely legal way of metaphorically screwing someone over?

 

...Considering how much trouble I'm having explaining it, I don't think my thoughts on it are particularly rational. I feel that rape is taken seriously enough but this situation isn't? Idk.

 

I'm mentioning it because it feels relevant here. Because in this particular narrow scenario, it's morally fine but bad in the eyes of the law. It's something I've never liked. Granted, I don't know how or even if there's a way to fix it without doing more harm then good, but it still bugs me.

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The only thing wrong with it is the lack of a percentage for when you need to stroke it.

 


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well here's a pretty alright thing to read if you want to learn more about the issue.

 

but yeah you could definitely work on explaining yourself better, i have no idea what you're referring to when you say "morally fine but bad in the eyes of the law" and i can't really think of anything that would relate to wrt rape.

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No need to get snarky, Ginger :P

 

Gingy obviously has a past or someone close does with the whole topic.

I was tired from work, sleep deprivation and also having to deal with some... challenging people yesterday. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have taken that tone of voice.

 

It isn't really relevant to how I feel about the issue but, yes, one of my friends was raped and another friend was the target of a date rape in a nightclub. In a strange and almost perverse way, the latter friend was lucky that she was drugged, because it made her so physically sick that she literally couldn't have sex, so the would-be rapist freaked out and ran off before an ambulance was called and the health services put two-and-two together.

Cause for whatever reason the issue of being falsely accused of rape personally worries me more then rape. I dunno. More likely to affect me? Bugged me ever since that day in sex ed when I found out about it? Bugs me because it leads to a completely legal way of metaphorically screwing someone over?

Well so far in this thread, the concept of a false rape accusation only seems to have been argued as a hypothetical situation, with precious few statistics to show that it's anywhere as valid a problem as rape itself. It seems to have been tacitly implied that of rape accusations made as a whole, there's a significant number of women who will sleep with a man and cry "rape" as an act of revenge. If we're going to argue this point and expose it to greater scrutiny, let's do it with some logical structure, and let's get the facts and figures first.

 

As a proportion of all rape accusations, how many later transpire to be false accusations? Of those that are false accusations, how many are influenced by outside complicating factors, such as mental health issues, or the accuser not being the alleged victim (i.e., overprotective parent claiming daughter was 'raped' when she clearly was not and is above age of consent)?

 

I could sit here and argue against (what seems to be right now) a largely hypothetical idea, but it really amounts to attacking a strawman if the concept doesn't exist in a significant number of cases in the first place.

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Interestingly enough, the same woman who I mentioned earlier falsely accused a guy of raping her as well. It went all the way to trial...luckily he got off but she pretty much ruined his life, and she wasn't punished in any way.

 

These things do happen.

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Interestingly enough, the same woman who I mentioned earlier falsely accused a guy of raping her as well. It went all the way to trial...luckily he got off but she pretty much ruined his life, and she wasn't punished in any way.

 

These things do happen.

good thing nobody said they didn't

 

e- i mean i didnt actually read most of the thread so someone might have but i dunno i assume nobody said that

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I figure this is as good a place as any. How does everyone feel about intoxication and consent?

 

This is you reading this thread after asking that question and then not participating in the discussion :P

 

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Haha sorry, I've been at work and busy with other arguments, so I haven't even gotten the chance to read everything yet. My therefore uneducated guess on the matter is that consent is not restricted to explicit contracts or sex, but also to exchanges or gifts (for obvious reasons, you need another person's consent to take their property and replace it with yours, or just outright take it). It does not, however, seem to be the case that you are forbidden from selling things to drunk people, as countless gas station clerks have been gracious enough to do for me (Jamaican patties aw ye). If I'm getting this right, there's an inconsistency.

 

In addition, if "drunk consent" doesn't count as actual consent, then indeed having sex with a drunk person is rape, whether they go to court about it or not. "False rape accusations" implies no alcohol was involved. It's a little bit like saying "deciding you've been a victim of pedophilia when you were 15 after you've turned 16 is a false rape accusation". The whole point of defining consent that way is that you can't make a proper decision before being sober/old enough.

Again, I haven't been reading, so ignore me if that's not the point.

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Interestingly enough, the same woman who I mentioned earlier falsely accused a guy of raping her as well. It went all the way to trial...luckily he got off but she pretty much ruined his life, and she wasn't punished in any way.

 

These things do happen.

good thing nobody said they didn't

 

e- i mean i didnt actually read most of the thread so someone might have but i dunno i assume nobody said that

 

Ginger was implying it's extremely rare and not relevant, I'm saying it is.

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But being accused of and/or charged with rape can.

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Having sex isn't going to [bleep] up your life.

 

Well, let's see. He got kicked out of school, shunned by all his friends, and (probably) spent some time in jail too. So yeah, that did [bleep] up his life.

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well here's a pretty alright thing to read if you want to learn more about the issue.

 

but yeah you could definitely work on explaining yourself better, i have no idea what you're referring to when you say "morally fine but bad in the eyes of the law" and i can't really think of anything that would relate to wrt rape.

 

Morally, I see absolutely nothing wrong with sleeping with a girl who had two beers. Legally, I'm pretty sure that's considered rape. (At least if I'm sober.)

 

I feel the same way about a minor sleeping with someone who isn't a minor. Here, the age of consent is 16. So, legally and morally*, there's nothing wrong with a 20 year old sleeping with a 16 year old. Providing the 16 year old consents. Suddenly that person is 15, and the parents charge the 20 year old with rape. Did the 20 year old do anything morally wrong? Not if you ask me.

 

Hell, I know a girl who when she was 15 liked sleeping with 20 year olds. She said when she turned 16 that she can finally [legally] sleep with the guys she likes sleeping with. Before she was 16, her parents threatened to charge one of her boyfriends with rape. (Didn't happen from the sounds of it.)

 

Now, I'm not saying the answer is to remove those laws. But it's pretty obvious how the law could easily screw someone over in this matter. Also, a guy simply being accused of rape will likely ruin his life, as we've pointed out.

 

*I don't see anything wrong with this scenario at any rate.

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Rape is such an emotionally driven crime; the other day I got into a argument with my friend who said rape is worse than murder. Then with rape accusations, it's a case of guilty until proven innocent.

 

I think it's society's outdated religious virtues playing a role in this: virginity and sexual actives are so sacred and private anybody who breaks them is the anti-Christ reincarnate.

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Interestingly enough, the same woman who I mentioned earlier falsely accused a guy of raping her as well. It went all the way to trial...luckily he got off but she pretty much ruined his life, and she wasn't punished in any way.

 

These things do happen.

good thing nobody said they didn't

 

e- i mean i didnt actually read most of the thread so someone might have but i dunno i assume nobody said that

 

Ginger was implying it's extremely rare and not relevant, I'm saying it is.

I didn't say it was irrelevant, nor did I ask you to provide me with an anecdote (as horrible as it was); I asked you to provide me with numbers, facts, statistics.

 

Your position seems to be that a significant number of would-be rape victims who are attacked while under influence, are actually false accusers who got drunk, slept with a man, later regretted it, and made up a story to exact one of the most evil forms of revenge imaginable. All I've asked is for you to show me how many rape accusations eventually turn out to be false accusations because of those reasons.

 

It's the most basic rule of debating: back up what you say with evidence. Neither you or Squab (who conveniently appears to dodged the question) have done that so far.

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35% of people convicted of rape in the US between 1989 and 2012 were exonerated.

http://lovenberglaw.com/exonerations/

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35% of people convicted of rape in the US between 1989 and 2012 were exonerated.

http://lovenberglaw.com/exonerations/

Close, but not quite. Of all of the 873 known exonerations in the study, 35% had been convicted of rape. Not the same as saying 35% of those convicted of rape were exonerated.

 

I'll admit, I'm being very insincere here. I know full well how many rape prosecutions end in a prosecution for false allegations:

Charging perverting the course of justice and wasting police time in cases involving allegedly false rape and domestic violence allegations[/i]. United Kingdom.']In the period of the review, there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape and 111,891 for domestic violence. During the same period there were 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape, 6 for making false allegation of domestic violence and 3 for making false allegations of both rape and domestic violence.

 

The review has allowed us to examine the suggestion that false allegations of rape and / or domestic violence are rife. It is plain that there were a large number of prosecutions for rape and domestic violence but that only a very small number of individuals were prosecuted for having made a false complaint.

 

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/research/perverting_course_of_justice_march_2013.pdf

 

As a side-note: 50% of those exonerated were African-American... interesting. I'll have to look into that some time.

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My bad, Ginger. Did seem really high to me. That being said, I don't think stats are all that relevant considering how sketchy the justice is when it comes to rape, especially the number of actual prosecutions for false claims. One would hope that some of those false claims are included in that >90% of cases where the defendant is found not guilty.

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Camera guy: runs away still laughing

Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down

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nt, nor did I ask you to provide me with an anecdote (as horrible as it was); I asked you to provide me with numbers, facts, statistics.

 

How can an anecdote be horrible?

 

Your position seems to be that a significant number of would-be rape victims who are attacked while under influence, are actually false accusers who got drunk, slept with a man, later regretted it, and made up a story to exact one of the most evil forms of revenge imaginable. All I've asked is for you to show me how many rape accusations eventually turn out to be false accusations because of those reasons.

 

It's the most basic rule of debating: back up what you say with evidence. Neither you or Squab (who conveniently appears to dodged the question) have done that so far.

 

I never made any such claim. I said it happens, and gave a personal anecdote from my life to prove that. I never said it was the majority of the cases, nor do I think that's the case.

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It's barely any of the cases. Around one-in-two hundred if you go off the CPS's figures. Your friend was very unfortunate it went that far, and I absolutely sympathise that false allegations are ruinous to the victim of those allegations, but we shouldn't allow that to tar the whole issue when it reality, they represent such a tiny, tiny minority of rape prosecutions.

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